Range, power, hunting ability, accuracy, magazine capacity. I am leaning towards the 6.5 Grendel. Which do you say and why?
To be used for Deer and hog hunting. However I want the ability to defend against two legged predators and possibly occasionally coyote hunting. Maybe someday elk and antelope hunting.
5.56 with 77gr SMK's or maybe 64gr Noslers for hunting.
I just spent a bit of time running an LWRC 8.5in 6.8SPC. Not my idea of a defensive carbine. A LOT of recoil to manage. It kicks more than an AK. I don't have any trouble dumping an entire mag from a full-auto AK into a close range target. I had to back off and "dig-in" to do that with the 6.8.
You know, you CAN own two uppers, one for hunting and one for defensive work. Owning an AR and not having a 5.56 uppper ain't too bright, IMO.
Two peas in a pod. You can't go wrong with either cartridge. For me it's a no brainer to go with the 6.5 Grendel cause I had a stash of 6.5mm bullets on hand.
My vote is for the 6.8. There's a lot more ammo available out there for it than the 6.5 and more manufactures seem to be offering it every year. Winchester is the lone holdout right now as Federal and Privi have commited to it (actually just bought some 6.8 at WalMart). There's also Hornady, CorBon,Remington,Silver State, S&B, BVAC, Barrett, Double Tap, and several other small producers. I probably missed a couple. I think there's only about three or four makers of 6.5 (Hornady, AA, Wolf?). As for recoil I really don't see that much of a difference from the 223. I don't know what barrel length or gas system others are using but my 16in barreled AR Performance DI has light recoil and shoots great. I'm running a Magpul stock with enhanced recoil pad so that might help a little. If you want a shorter barreled carbine I'd go with the 6.8 also as it's optimized for the 14 to 18 inch length. The 6.5 is more at home in the longer tubes. If you really want to find out about the 6.8 and learn more than you would ever want check out this forum: http://68forums.com/forums/forum.php The guys on hear are really knowledgeable and friendly. There's no such thing as a dumb question on there. Believe me, I should know. Hope this helps.
6.5 has recently been SAMII or SAMMI? speced. So there should be a lot more mfg's getting into making it. I read somewhere that it could be made from 7.62x39 brass. I reload anyways, so I would obtain a lot of brass and bullets and make my own.
Toss up really. Neither will you have ammo laying around for at Walmart.
6.5 is a longer range cartridge, so that might make it more all around?
Though there isn't really much at normal distances that can't be done very well with the 223 and the right choice of bullets... especially with the ttsx and tsx bullets rounding out the hunting line up and retaining 100% of weight typically...
I"ve shot a LOT of stuff with 223, out to almost 600 yards, deer included, with "non" hunting bullets and never had an issue FWIW.
Since you narrow your topic down to deer and deer hunting, 6.5 hands down over the 6.8.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Toss up really. Neither will you have ammo laying around for at Walmart.
Not a poke, but the local Wal Marts (only two stores-FWIW) has been getting Federal 6.8 SPC MSR Fusion ammo in pretty regular for the last four weeks, don't know how long it will last.
I have the 6.8 and I am very happy with the cartridge. I do not intend to use it past 300 yards anyway and I have other dedicated LR rifles so the long range aspect is a moot point to me
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
i went5.8 because i had 1000 bullets in the cabinet. if not for that i may had tried the 6.5 just because of the accuratcy of other calibers using that diameter bullet,but my old 270 is pretty accurate to so .277 diameter bullet do just fine.
I know the 6.8 was SAMI speced first, thus got a head start over the priority 6.5 of Alexander Arms. However, because the 6.5 has longer range, flatter shooting, and still fits the AR platform, and was popular, Alexander finally let it be SAMI speced to be sold by anyone. I'm hopeing a lot of the ammo companies start selling it to make it even more popular. From what I read it beats the 308 from about 300-800 yards in power and accuracy. Under 300 the 308 is best, but the 6.8 is a little better in power but not much. It would make a good Pronghorn antelop rifle, good deer and hog rifle, and long range varmit rifle. That is one reason I like it better than 6.8.
I have also decided my big thumper would be the 458 Socom because it uses 45-70 bullets and I have a 45-70. I do not have a 270 to share bullets with for the 6.8, and I don't have an inbetween rifle from 223 to 308. I had a 243 once, but didn't like it. It was a Winchester Automatic that kept breaking firing pins, a weekness of that particular rifle.
I also have been interested in a 6.5 Swedish Mauser. There is also the 260 Remington that uses 6.5 bullets that is becoming popular. So bullets shouldn't be a problem, and I have heard of people making 6.5 Grendel brass from 7.62x39 brass. I think just buying new brass and bullets would be ok with the reloading dies. I would have to do the same with 6.8 if I went that route.
OH what the hell... buy one of each... don't know why I didn't come up with that earlier...
I used to say I wanted one of every upper eventually, instead of the 15 or so 223 ones I have.... but now there are SO many choices....
50 beowulf works really well on deer to about 200 yards. I had a 300ish yard shot on a hog once... but never took it as I was still trying to run an app to figure drop out... and he was gone.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Grendel, FWIW, is basically a 6.5 PPC.. hence the x39 brass can be formed... but why. If you dont' have grendel brass then get PPC brass and neck it up. One expander and done.
Its what I do for my 284 brass... buy 6.5x284...
Also the 260 is an AR10 platform, and that opens an whole other can of worms...
FWIW don't dis a 243 just because yours broke firing pins, its a capable little caliber. Even down loaded I use it for quiet deer rounds...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
So the 6.5 Grendel is a 6mm PPC necked up. I though the cartridge was a little longer. Maybe not. I don't have the dimensions on it. The 6mm PPC is the most accurate round ever created or so says my Lyman reloading manual. I have necked up 30-06 to 35 Whelen with two passes. Hmmm. I heard the wildcat 6mm based on the 223 cartridge was also a very good round. Hits harder, but a little shorter range. Someone said they didn't understand why the military didn't go for a 6mm or 243 base on the 223 case, made more sense for a little harder hitting round under 300 yards.
Both are great calibers for medium game and patriot rifles but the Grendel is more accurate and farther shooting. They are about equal 300 yards and under but after that the Grendel takes over. The cool kids shoot the Grendel:) The 6.8SPC is well more Walmart. Not that's theirs anything wrong with that.
The Grendel is more accurate because the inherit low drag high BC bullets. They have less drift in the wind which makes them more accurate. Longer range? Geeze dude just look at the ballistics. The Grendel smokes the 6.8SPC.
The Grendel is more accurate because the inherit low drag high BC bullets. They have less drift in the wind which makes them more accurate. Longer range? Geeze dude just look at the ballistics. The Grendel smokes the 6.8SPC.
Awe, now you went and done it. Actually, when used in the same length barrel and with similar weight bullets the 6.8 has more velocity and energy than the 6.5. It's understandable that this mistake is made because most 6.8 vs 6.5 comparisons are made when the 6.8 is shot from a 16 inch tube and the 6.5 shot form a 22 or 24 inch tube. But that's okay. I'm just glad I can buy 6.8 at WalMart. When they have it that is.
I dunno, I"ve shot the grendel enough at 600 to be really impressed with the little round.
MUCH more so than my 6.8 necked to 6mm.
I don't think its at all more accurate due to 6.5 bullets. Its due to the basic short fat PPC case.
Btw IIRC The grendel has a few tweaks that make it not quite exactly a 6.5 ppc, but thats actually what it started as by Arne Brennan years ago. I think Bill just needed to put a tweak to it for some reason to make it a hair different, not that it made it necc better IMHO.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
The 6.8 has higher velocity out of the muzzle but then those lower BC 6.8spc bullets get dragged down and the higher BC bullets of the Grendel keep going long after the 6.8 is cold in the dirt. The turn over is around 300 yards but for 150 yards or so they are about equal. That's the facts jack.
Here's an example the Hornady 123gr SST 6.5mm Grendel has a Ballistics Coefficient (BC) of .510. The comparable 6.8SPC 120gr SST Hornady has a BC of .400. That's inherent in the caliber. The Grendel because of it's longer more arrow dynamic shape has higher BC bullets that keep going and going.
The Grendel is more accurate because the inherit low drag high BC bullets. They have less drift in the wind which makes them more accurate. Longer range? Geeze dude just look at the ballistics. The Grendel smokes the 6.8SPC.
I am well aware of the exterior ballistics but that does not equate to "more accurate" which was your claim. Accuracy will have more to do with the individual rifles than the small advantage of the exterior ballistics of the higher BC bullets of the 6.5 DUDE
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Range, power, hunting ability, accuracy, magazine capacity. I am leaning towards the 6.5 Grendel. Which do you say and why?
To be used for Deer and hog hunting. However I want the ability to defend against two legged predators and possibly occasionally coyote hunting. Maybe someday elk and antelope hunting.
I personally would want something bigger than all of them for Elk. One size does not fit all regards rifle cartridges. There is only so much powder you can put into a case big enough to fit into the normal AR upper. You need to weight bullet, powder, case availability, ammunition availability if that interests you against possible gains in performance. I have looked at all the others but still use the 22 centerfire with heavy or solid copper bullets and so far in the 2 years of shooting them at animals 4 bullets have killed 1 10 point deer and 3 hogs. I want to get a bolt 223 but want a 1-8 twist.
The Grendel is more accurate because the inherit low drag high BC bullets. They have less drift in the wind which makes them more accurate. Longer range? Geeze dude just look at the ballistics. The Grendel smokes the 6.8SPC.
Awe, now you went and done it. Actually, when used in the same length barrel and with similar weight bullets the 6.8 has more velocity and energy than the 6.5. It's understandable that this mistake is made because most 6.8 vs 6.5 comparisons are made when the 6.8 is shot from a 16 inch tube and the 6.5 shot form a 22 or 24 inch tube. But that's okay. I'm just glad I can buy 6.8 at WalMart. When they have it that is.
I've worked extensively with the 6.8. Frankly, some of the reloading data out there scares me. I find SSA factory velocities close to what's possible, but their Tactical rounds are +P.
Range, power, hunting ability, accuracy, magazine capacity. I am leaning towards the 6.5 Grendel. Which do you say and why?
To be used for Deer and hog hunting. However I want the ability to defend against two legged predators and possibly occasionally coyote hunting. Maybe someday elk and antelope hunting.
Both are very close when it comes to hunting. Does capacity really matter when most states have a 5 round max? The 6.8 mags hold 27 or 30 depending on the brand, the Grendel 25. Both are capable of 1/2" or better accuracy but most can't shoot them that well. Both have the exact same case capacity so energy...power at the muzzle is very close. The 6.8 has more factory hunting bullets/loads available. As far as range, the threshold of expansion for the bullets limit the range of both to around 350 yds. If you're talking about shooting paper at long range then the Grendel/264LBC will have less wind drift than the 6.8 due to some of the bullets. Although there are 130 and 140gr Bergers being loaded for the 6.8 so the BC difference between the 123 6.5s and 130 .277 is not that much difference and the 6.8 will propel a 130 about the same velocity a Grendel/264 will propel a 123. For all practical purposes it's a toss up.
"I threw a touchdown pass in the last minute to win the state championship game. I know it was 30 years ago and not relevant to this discussion but it makes me important and believable, it's the only great thing I even accomplished"
The 6.8 has proven to work, but my personal choice would always be a 6.5 for a hunting set up. Up close in combat roles either will do. I just like the bullet offerings in 6.5 in this range of weights, no doubt more choices have come open in 6.8, it's just a personal preference.
I believe if one is pushing long range the 6.5 has a slight edge, how meaningful that is in the field on impact assuming shot placement with bullets designed for game at reduced speeds would have to be compared. I'd not want to get hit by any myself
Is the Grendel being fielded by any of the world's military forces?
The 6.8 has not been accepted by the US military although it has seen limited use by U.S. SF forces.
However, the 6.8 is being used by DEA in the form of M6A2-D-DEA 6.8 SPC rifles.
Also, the Jordanians are producing 6.8 SPC rifles and carbines for their Jordanian Royal Protection Unit under license by LWRC at the Jordanian KADDB manufacturing facilities....
In addition...LWRC is producing 32,000 Six8 PDW's for the Saudi Royal Guard and Federal has an annual contract with the Saudis for 1.15 million rounds of ATK 6.8 SPC 90g Bonded rounds.
The Czechoslovakians...also are offering CZ805 Bren A1/A2 assault rifles in 6.8 SPC as an option to 5.56 and 7.62x39.
It would seem at least a few foreign countries and one US department have acknowledged the advantages of the 6.8 SPC round and are currently fielding weapons in this caliber.
Are there any similar foreign forces or US government departments fielding the Grendel?
Is the Grendel being fielded by any of the world's military forces?
The 6.8 has not been accepted by the US military although it has seen limited use by U.S. SF forces.
However, the 6.8 is being used by DEA in the form of M6A2-D-DEA 6.8 SPC rifles.
Also, the Jordanians are producing 6.8 SPC rifles and carbines for their Jordanian Royal Protection Unit under license by LWRC at the Jordanian KADDB manufacturing facilities....
In addition...LWRC is producing 32,000 Six8 PDW's for the Saudi Royal Guard and Federal has an annual contract with the Saudis for 1.15 million rounds of ATK 6.8 SPC 90g Bonded rounds.
The Czechoslovakians...also are offering CZ805 Bren A1/A2 assault rifles in 6.8 SPC as an option to 5.56 and 7.62x39.
It would seem at least a few foreign countries and one US department have acknowledged the advantages of the 6.8 SPC round and are currently fielding weapons in this caliber.
Are there any similar foreign forces or US government departments fielding the Grendel?
The interest by Special Forces in the 6.8SPC is long gone. Not in usage, sorry you bought into the internet forum lore.
While on the subject of ammo... I did a quick search to compare current availability between 6.8 and 6.5 Grendel. The result was surprising...and could perhaps influence those on the fence trying to choose between the two rounds.
While on the subject of ammo... I did a quick search to compare current availability between 6.8 and 6.5 Grendel. The result was surprising...and could perhaps influence those on the fence trying to choose between the two rounds.
They just added the Grendel which means they aren't tracking as many suppliers. The point though is obvious the 6.8spc has a larger market share but crapper ballistics.
The interest by Special Forces in the 6.8SPC is long gone. Not in usage, sorry you bought into the internet forum lore.
It's not internet lore for those who have returned from the sandbox who have personally seen it. But you are correct that it is apparently no longer being used by SF. Exactly why my comment was past tense...
What comparable acceptance and use of the Grendel can you offer by any foreign government or US government department?
The interest by Special Forces in the 6.8SPC is long gone. Not in usage, sorry you bought into the internet forum lore.
You might want to check your own internet information accuracy...
Per Wikipedia re: military use of the 6.8 SPC:
"Military/law enforcement adoption
By late 2004 the 6.8x43mm SPC was said to be performing well in the field against enemy combatants in Special Operations.[6] However as of the end of 2012 the cartridge was not used by conventional US military personnel."
[6] ^ a b John Pike. "5.56-mm Cartridges". Globalsecurity.org. Retrieved 2011-09-15.
I noticed at 500 yards the 3.5" drop and 924 ft lbs of energy for the Grendel is enough to kill a deer. Most gun writers say 900 Ft lbs is needed for a good deer kill which the 30-30 has at about 200 yards. That is a long range shot in my book. I read this elsewhere and that is one reason I was leaning towards the Grendel. The Swedish Mauser in 6.5 is a moose killer in Sweden. I know the Grendel is not as powerful, but for deer, hogs and pronghorn with its flat shooting, it has enough power.
Here's the closet ballistic comparison i could find. Notice that when both rifles fire from a 16in barrel and use a 120gr ballistic tip bullet the lower range advantage of the 6.8SPC completely disappears. The Grendel takes over right away and keeps the lead to 1000 yards. Also notice the Hornady HITS scores. 500+ is considered adequate for medium game. 499 and under is varmint shooting. The Grendel has better HITS scores which means better killing power right from the muzzle. With these bullet combos 6.8SPC is a 300 yard deer gun and the Grendel is a 450 yard deer gun.
I noticed at 500 yards the 3.5" drop and 924 ft lbs of energy for the Grendel is enough to kill a deer. Most gun writers say 900 Ft lbs is needed for a good deer kill which the 30-30 has at about 200 yards. That is a long range shot in my book. I read this elsewhere and that is one reason I was leaning towards the Grendel. The Swedish Mauser in 6.5 is a moose killer in Sweden. I know the Grendel is not as powerful, but for deer, hogs and pronghorn with its flat shooting, it has enough power.
You mean the deer I killed with my 45 ACP are now alive because they weren't killed with at least 900 FPE. Rating lethality using FPE to rate lethality is silly and meaningless
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
I said from what I read that most gun WRITERS say you need 900 ft lbs of energy to adequately kill a deer, whatever that means. I have a friend who killed a 9 pointer with a 44 mag carbine at 192 yards. He aimed about a foot high. Even so, the Grendel has more downrange energy retained.
I said from what I read that most gun WRITERS say you need 900 ft lbs of energy to adequately kill a deer, whatever that means. I have a friend who killed a 9 pointer with a 44 mag carbine at 192 yards. He aimed about a foot high. Even so, the Grendel has more downrange energy retained.
Velocity is far more important for a rifle cartridge on game, IMO. And not speed for its own sake, but rather the MINIMUM speed that'll make YOUR chosen bullet perform as designed. A lot of manufacturers, IE Nosler, reccomend 1800fps.
Taking that into consideration, you'll see that even the Grendel is hardly a LR game cartridge, though is has an extra 100yd reach over the 6.8.
I said from what I read that most gun WRITERS say you need 900 ft lbs of energy to adequately kill a deer, whatever that means. I have a friend who killed a 9 pointer with a 44 mag carbine at 192 yards. He aimed about a foot high. Even so, the Grendel has more downrange energy retained.
Whats fun about the Hornady HITS number is that it takes the caliber, grain, energy, and velocity into account and gives you one number that measures the killing power. As you see at no time does the 6.8SPC ever have a higher HITS number than the Grendel. Its a myth that the 6.8SPC is better close in and the Grendel better at far off shots. The Grendel is actually better right from the muzzle out. According to the HITS score the Grendel is in the deer killing range out to 550 yards or so using a 16in barrel. Most of us hunt with 18 to 20 inches so we are probably good out past 600 yards. So I'd say that's more range than i'll ever need to drop a deer.
That is why I'm leaning towards the Grendal. I also above was not talking about speed or velocity. I was talking about Foot Pounds of energy at various distances. That translates into penetration and knock down power. Yes it is 0.3 mm smaller than the 6.8, but that is not enough difference to matter. It is penetration energy. Gun writers said for a crossing shot on a deer to penetrate to the vitals at an angle. They said you needed 900 ft lbs of retained energy. 6.5 will penetrate better. Next would be bullet selection for proper expansion.
Look a this side by line up. The 123gr SST in the Grendel VS the 120gr SST in the 6.8SPC.
When talking about the rounds' effective range on game or anything else, including wind drift in your charts would make them more instructive.
I recently got rid of my Grendel and I miss it already. It would be fun to play with some of these new bullets and powders now available. If I was going to hunt with an AR the new 129 Accubond LR (advertised expansion down to 1300 fps), when available, might be the perfect all around bullet for it.
I studied in some detail the grendel vs 6.8 options about two years ago. On paper the 6.5 is better. For practical logistics it seems the 6.8 is better. Long distance capabilities goes to the 6.5
I stumbled upon some industry confusion concerning chambers for the 6.8 that disturbed me.
As I get older complications are not something I am interested in.
I don't see much advantage of the 6.8 cartridge over the 7.62x39 honestly. I think rock river has a new carbine in the AR platform that takes AK mags.
The cost of bulk ammo always brings me back to reality as I am frugal and have just a tiny hint of Scot in me.
I haven't bought an upper yet. I do have s 223. I also have three 308's, bolt, lever, and semi. So I really don't need the Grendel. The local stores are selling far more 300 Blackouts right now for several reasons. Same parts as 223 like bolt and magazines. With a can hunting hogs is easier. One guy in south Georgia killed 8 hogs with his 300 BO and the herd didn't run off. All were under 100 yards though. 300 has same ballistics as 7.62x39, but feeds better in any AR platform, and brass can be made from 223 brass. They say it is about as loud as a pellet gun or 22lr with CB longs.
I think what confuses people is they see that the 6.8 is a bigger caliber and has more muzzle velocity. What they apparently don't understand is the ballistic coefficient (BC)factor. It means that the Grendel holds it's power much longer while the short stubby 6.8SPC sheds it velocity/energy/power quickly. Already at 100 yards the Grendel already has more energy and velocity. The shape of the 6.5mm bullet also means its more resistant to wind and penetrates deeper.
I get the advantages of the higher B/c's and I agreed with your earlier argument of the inherent accuracy etc.
Less time of flight/ less wind drift = inherently mo accurate
I love everything in this world that is 6.5
I was doing my research in the context of finding a good combat self defense weapon and also taking into consideration my budget... so I guess I was not on the same page as the the OP looking about for a good hog gun.
Unless the Grendel gets a lot lot mo popular and like the other poster said... and Walmart starts carrying boxes on a regular basis, then for a 400 yard combat application I think the 6.8 winds on logistics not ballistics.
This latest darth of components since BHO and then Newtown has taught me a lesson I will NEVER forget. Availability, ordinary, common, boring.... and lots of it LOL
I get the advantages of the higher B/c's and I agreed with your earlier argument of the inherent accuracy etc.
Less time of flight/ less wind drift = inherently mo accurate
I love everything in this world that is 6.5
I was doing my research in the context of finding a good combat self defense weapon and also taking into consideration my budget... so I guess I was not on the same page as the the OP looking about for a good hog gun.
Unless the Grendel gets a lot lot mo popular and like the other poster said... and Walmart starts carrying boxes on a regular basis, then for a 400 yard combat application I think the 6.8 winds on logistics not ballistics.
This latest darth of components since BHO and then Newtown has taught me a lesson I will NEVER forget. Availability, ordinary, common, boring.... and lots of it LOL
I learned something quit different. The more common the quicker it sales out. 223/5.56mm is the first to go. It does not matter what caliber its going to be off the shelves in minutes. Get a round with better ballistics and stock up and get into reloading. I'm getting my reloading kit together. Got my powder brass and bullets. Got my press and dies just need the rest of the odds and ends.
I get the advantages of the higher B/c's and I agreed with your earlier argument of the inherent accuracy etc.
Less time of flight/ less wind drift = inherently mo accurate
I love everything in this world that is 6.5
I was doing my research in the context of finding a good combat self defense weapon and also taking into consideration my budget... so I guess I was not on the same page as the the OP looking about for a good hog gun.
Unless the Grendel gets a lot lot mo popular and like the other poster said... and Walmart starts carrying boxes on a regular basis, then for a 400 yard combat application I think the 6.8 winds on logistics not ballistics.
This latest darth of components since BHO and then Newtown has taught me a lesson I will NEVER forget. Availability, ordinary, common, boring.... and lots of it LOL
Wolf is coming out with cheapo steal case grendel this fall.
I don't believe there is a single AR15 chambering that excels at accuracy, firepower, defense, and elk hunting.
If you step up to the AR10, you might have some realistic choices to cover all those bases.
My solution has been that both my AR's are 5.56/223, and I have boltguns in 308 and 30-06 for heavy or LR work.
As far as the 6.8 SPC vs 6.5 Grendel go, they are both neat rounds, but if either one were too light in the azz, I wouldn't pick the other as a solution. I'd make a real step up.
As far as the 6.8 SPC vs 6.5 Grendel go, they are both neat rounds, but if either one were too light in the azz, I wouldn't pick the other as a solution. I'd make a real step up.
The 308 platforms are heavy. Like I said, I have 308's already. I have 30-06 and 35 Whelen. I was thinking for kind of a do all cartridge. I also reload. If you have brass, primers, power and bullets, you don't have to worry about the stores running out. For instance, I have a 35 Whelen. I can reload it with premium bullets for around $10-$12 a box of 20. I can make brass from 30-06 brass. The cheapest 35 Whelen I have found is Remington at $40 a box for Core-Loks. Right next to them were 30-06 Core-loks for $20 a box. Go figure. Same thing can be done with the 6.5 Grendel. You can make brass from 7.62x39 brass, but the 6.8 uses Remington brass and there are no common brass for the 6.8. Another advantage for the Grendel.
I noticed during the shortage, there is plenty of 17HMR on the shelves. Also 7mm08, but 223 and 308's were/are hard to find. Reloading is the way to go. You can use a Lee hand press, the die set for caliber, several hundred bullets, 100 brass and 1,000 primers, one pound can of powder, and it all fits in a 50 caliber ammo can. Most brass can be reloaded about 10 times, so that translates into 1,000 shells. Not bad. This is also probably cheaper than buying and storing 1,000 cartridges.
So in a bug out situation the 6.5 Grendel with your can, and you are set to go. The cartridge can cover a wider range of game, along with a 22 pistol just about anything would be covered. If you were in a vehicle a 223 upper with its kit can also be carried.
All that being said, the 223 with heavy bullets can bring down a deer. I use 62 grain TSX's with just short of max load for hunting and 55g fmj's for defense.
The Grendel is not an ideal Elk round but it can bring them dowm. The 6.5mm is to Elk what a 223 is to deer. Is it ideal? No but it can bring them down absolutely. Remember you can load 140gr high BC bullets like the Berger Match VLD Hunting with a .612 BC and a 2315fps mv. Is it as good as a 30-06? No but people have dropped Elk at 400 yards with the Grendel.
my 6.8 shoots 1/2 grps at 100yds with a 16in barrel.i didn't try to build a long range gun,just a medium range gun that is very accurate. oh,i wouldn't buy ammo at walmart if they had it.
Loading a 1.4" bullet into an AR15 mag length should be interesting..
People of Walmart, and "patriot rifles" aside, I'm still not seeing much killing difference between the two carts..
There is not much if any difference in practical accuracy or killing power in the game fields. I choose the 6.8 and would do so again. I like the cartridge very much and do not see that I have given up any practical exterior ballistics in doing so. With either cartridge I would set my AR's up with low power S&B scopes with lots of field of view. For long range works have much better options already and the minor differences between the 2 cartridges is a moot point to me
Last edited by jwp475; 06/30/13.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Loading a 1.4" bullet into an AR15 mag length should be interesting..
People of Walmart, and "patriot rifles" aside, I'm still not seeing much killing difference between the two carts..
There is not much if any difference in practical accuracy or killing power in the game fields. I choose the 6.8 and would do so again. I like the cartridge very much and do not see that I have given up any practical exterior ballistics in doing so. With either cartridge I would set my AR's up with low power S&B scopes with lots of field of view. For long range works have much better options already and the minor differences between the 2 cartridges is a moot point to me
Nice looking AR!! Here's my hunting rifle and patriot gun. Well one of them
The Grendel is not an ideal Elk round but it can bring them dowm. The 6.5mm is to Elk what a 223 is to deer. Is it ideal? No but it can bring them down absolutely. Remember you can load 140gr high BC bullets like the Berger Match VLD Hunting with a .612 BC and a 2315fps mv. Is it as good as a 30-06? No but people have dropped Elk at 400 yards with the Grendel.
The guy in the video was not impressive to me in his knowledge of terminal ballistics, since he reference "energy dump" which means he is ignorant of what is actually happening in an "inelastic collision" which a bullet strike most certainly is
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
5.56 with 77gr SMK's or maybe 64gr Noslers for hunting.
I just spent a bit of time running an LWRC 8.5in 6.8SPC. Not my idea of a defensive carbine. A LOT of recoil to manage. It kicks more than an AK. I don't have any trouble dumping an entire mag from a full-auto AK into a close range target. I had to back off and "dig-in" to do that with the 6.8.
You know, you CAN own two uppers, one for hunting and one for defensive work. Owning an AR and not having a 5.56 uppper ain't too bright, IMO.
I have said this same thing about the 6.8 several times and caught all sorts of flack for it. The 6.8's recoil is not heavy by any means, it's just heavy for a fast-shooting gun and much heavier than a 5.56. JMO.
5.56 with 77gr SMK's or maybe 64gr Noslers for hunting.
I just spent a bit of time running an LWRC 8.5in 6.8SPC. Not my idea of a defensive carbine. A LOT of recoil to manage. It kicks more than an AK. I don't have any trouble dumping an entire mag from a full-auto AK into a close range target. I had to back off and "dig-in" to do that with the 6.8.
You know, you CAN own two uppers, one for hunting and one for defensive work. Owning an AR and not having a 5.56 uppper ain't too bright, IMO.
I have said this same thing about the 6.8 several times and caught all sorts of flack for it. The 6.8's recoil is not heavy by any means, it's just heavy for a fast-shooting gun and much heavier than a 5.56. JMO.
I have both and the 6.8's recoil is not a factor in fast accurate fire in-fact I often see bullet impacts through the scope
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Both under 2-300 yards are probably almost the same. 300-800 the Grendel shines, thus giving you a good pronghorn gun or coyote gun. I think also the Grendel can shoot slightly lighter weight bullets for smaller game. Like I said, best all around. Whether you get ammo or not at Walmart isn't an issue for me, I reload, except for 22's. Off topic, but I am considering a 22 Hornet as a 22 mag substitute. I found out I can reload a Hornet about the same price as 22 mag and can get twice the power.
I fail to see the problem in taking a deer at 400 or so yards with the 6.8 and do not see the 6.5's claimed advantage until farther out and then the 6.8 ain't bad
Last edited by jwp475; 06/30/13.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
The Grendel is not an ideal Elk round but it can bring them dowm. The 6.5mm is to Elk what a 223 is to deer. Is it ideal? No but it can bring them down absolutely. Remember you can load 140gr high BC bullets like the Berger Match VLD Hunting with a .612 BC and a 2315fps mv. Is it as good as a 30-06? No but people have dropped Elk at 400 yards with the Grendel.
As much as I like my 6.8 and recognize the Grendel as a viable alternative, there just ain't no way I'm hunting elk with either one of them. Yes, I know they have both been used to take elk at distance, but I choose not to even attempt to duplicate that stunt.
The 6.8 is the modern 30-30. It has about the same uses.
I fail to see the problem in taking a deer at 400 or so yards with the 6.8 and do not see the 6.5's claimed advantage until farther out and then the 6.8 ain't bad
Originally Posted by jwp475
I fail to see the problem in taking a deer at 400 or so yards with the 6.8 and do not see the 6.5's claimed advantage until farther out and then the 6.8 ain't bad
The data shows the gredel has the advantage from muzzle out. The higher bc bullets give it the real advantage. The short stubby 6.8 bullets rate pretty low on the hornady HITS calculator and they shed energy and velocity quickly. The grendel has a higher HITS score from muzzle to flesh.
I also saw a chart somewhere, that at long range the 6.5 actually retained more energy than a 308. It is one of those calibers that does more than it should, like the 6mm PPC. The 6.5 Swede is also a good one. In Sweden, they use their 6.5 to hunt moose.
+1, Both kill no prob to 300 yds, which covers about 90-95% or more of deer/big game hunting esp in an AR platform for most hunters IMHO. Folks need to consider velocity to expand, comparing rounds on FT LBS alone does not tell the story.
As to chamber spec variance of Grendel for LBC, etc. - the originator's goofed the marketing and launch of the round by trying to hold on to all rights. Hornady, etc. got around it to offer it to more people. No issues IMO with the change. I'd just go w/latest reamer specs for best accuracy.
At least one guy thought so highly of the 6.5 - he had a 6.5 round done on the 6.8 case - Hmmmmmm and has a whole website on it. Something to ponder.
5.56 with 77gr SMK's or maybe 64gr Noslers for hunting.
I just spent a bit of time running an LWRC 8.5in 6.8SPC. Not my idea of a defensive carbine. A LOT of recoil to manage. It kicks more than an AK. I don't have any trouble dumping an entire mag from a full-auto AK into a close range target. I had to back off and "dig-in" to do that with the 6.8.
You know, you CAN own two uppers, one for hunting and one for defensive work. Owning an AR and not having a 5.56 uppper ain't too bright, IMO.
I have said this same thing about the 6.8 several times and caught all sorts of flack for it. The 6.8's recoil is not heavy by any means, it's just heavy for a fast-shooting gun and much heavier than a 5.56. JMO.
I have both and the 6.8's recoil is not a factor in fast accurate fire in-fact I often see bullet impacts through the scope
Alexander Arms came up with the 6.5. They also came up with the 50 Beowulf. However the 458 Socom has just as much power and uses 45-70 bullets in reloading. Bill Alexander made a mistake on both IMHO. Trying to hold on to the 6.5 priority, and not necking down the 50 Beowulf to 458 caliber. The 6.5 is now SAMII speced as of 2012. So anyone can make the barrels and ammo for it now.
Remington came out with the 6.8 based on their old 30 Rem cartridge that fell by the wayside to the 30-30. But they didn't keep the priority to it. After reviewing all I could, I think the 6.5 is a better round. I also think the 458 Socom is a better round (for reloaders) because the 450 Bushmaster uses a slightly smaller bullet than the 458 and if you use 458 bullets in the 450 they have to be resized slightly smaller which is an extra step in the reloading process.
I also think if I can come up with the money, that the 300 Blackout is another good caliber to have. Good short range cartridge and it can use a silencer with subsonic bullets. For longer range the 6.5 is the way to go for more knockdown than the 223 can offer. Then for a big thumber the 458 Socom. That would cover just about all bases except long range magnums, with 4 total uppers. Throw in a 22 LR conversion kit and you should be able to take anything in North America.
Umm, yeah. You're getting a week long tag team from Kate Upton and Olivia Munn before there's even a 1% chance of you shooting at zombies and black helicopters.
Originally Posted by captain seafire
I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...
Alexander Arms came up with the 6.5. They also came up with the 50 Beowulf. However the 458 Socom has just as much power and uses 45-70 bullets in reloading. Bill Alexander made a mistake on both IMHO. Trying to hold on to the 6.5 priority, and not necking down the 50 Beowulf to 458 caliber. The 6.5 is now SAMII speced as of 2012. So anyone can make the barrels and ammo for it now.
Remington came out with the 6.8 based on their old 30 Rem cartridge that fell by the wayside to the 30-30. But they didn't keep the priority to it. After reviewing all I could, I think the 6.5 is a better round. I also think the 458 Socom is a better round (for reloaders) because the 450 Bushmaster uses a slightly smaller bullet than the 458 and if you use 458 bullets in the 450 they have to be resized slightly smaller which is an extra step in the reloading process.
I also think if I can come up with the money, that the 300 Blackout is another good caliber to have. Good short range cartridge and it can use a silencer with subsonic bullets. For longer range the 6.5 is the way to go for more knockdown than the 223 can offer. Then for a big thumber the 458 Socom. That would cover just about all bases except long range magnums, with 4 total uppers. Throw in a 22 LR conversion kit and you should be able to take anything in North America.
I can tell you that Bill didn't come up with the Grendel. It was brought to him... and then tweaked a frog hair and renamed to suit his tastes for names.... but it doesn't really matter.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
And so the libetal anti gun trolls have arrived. They patrol multiple forums with multiple screen names pretending to be hunters. Then attack all things AR whem hunting comes up.
And so the libetal anti gun trolls have arrived. They patrol multiple forums with multiple screen names pretending to be hunters. Then attack all things AR whem hunting comes up.
That's funny.
rost' has probably forgot more about AR's than most of us will ever know.
I just noticed you are in Pine Valley, CA. Way back when in the late 1980s was stationed in Coronado and used to go shooting/camping out your way, a few miles east of Pine Valley at Kitchen Creek.
I just noticed you are in Pine Valley, CA. Way back when in the late 1980s was stationed in Coronado and used to go shooting/camping out your way, a few miles east of Pine Valley at Kitchen Creek.
Frosty burger is still there but the shooting spot at kitchen creek is closed. At least i hope it is because otherwise this dumbass is going to the desert for no reason. The navy brought me to the area but i was navy.
Yep, once you get about 1,000 rounds of brass, and if they don't split on reloading, that translates to 10,000 shots on average. Just bullets, primers, and powder to buy. Same with any caliber if you reload. 22lr is what is a bugger to find nowadays. You can't reload it, but you can sure shoot a lot of it.
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