Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Need Long range s/a Varmint thumper help

Even NF aren't immune to having the odd scope go belly up, but the failure rate is among the lowest out there.

I've been VERY impressed with various models of the Viper PST, so it's no surprise to see another one working very well.

All my Leupolds have tracked and RTZ reasonably well, although not perfect, but they've all required me to compensate for actual click values that varied from the advertised values. I've had a couple go bad on me, as well. The only problem I've had with Vortex scopes are the odd fleck of dust on an internal lens. Mechanically and functionally they've been excellent for me.

My guy has performed precision mounts on thousands of rifle scopes on long range rifles for 25 years. He's evaluated plenty of specimens of every make and model.

He says he has never come across a Nightforce with accurate click values or accurate reticle values.

I have a 3.5-15 NXS F1 new in the box. It's supposed to be their best product. Illuminated reticle, zero stop. I'll throw it on the jig to evaluate it well before I decide to use it.

Nightforce scopes also weigh about double what any other does. Never would be my choice for a hunting rifle unless I needed some exercise

That's interesting, Rick.

I've played with some NF scopes, but never owned nor evaluated any on my grid. I'd be interested to play with a few in my shop just to see.

Hey Jordan,

You're right about Vortex. They are pretty awesome. He's evaluated plenty and they have impressed him so much he now uses them in competition. I know quite a few who use them and they're really pleased. A ton of scope for the money; name another $900 scope available with the reticle in the first focal plane!

Any Leupold I pushed ie...shot alot would start to give problems around the 900 1100 round count.
They didnt outright quit.
But on 13.5 pound HV 6mm PPCs the aggs would open up from the high .1s and low .2s to the mid .4s or above.
I had 3 of them and they were all so effected.
You could send them back and and you would typically get the run around or they would claim they fixed it and you could just start the 900 to 1100 round count thing all over again.
These were pre and BR-D models and fixed 36x BR scopes.
The only real fix is to either freeze the reticles and use an adjustable mount or send them to Cecil Tucker.
The Tucker conversion is the only real way I know of the fix the crap they make without going to a frozen reticle and external adjustments.
I later found there hunting line up had much the same problems.
And in the hunting type of scope you could actually buy a multi coated Simmons before you could buy a multi coated Leupold say 1990 or so.
I have leupolds that are 30 years old and still work just fine.
They all have one thing in common.
Low round count.

My current past time is 1000 bench rest Silhouette.
40 targets from 850 to 1000 yards from May to Oct.
Last month there were 128 rifles on the line.
I believe I counted about 6 leupolds.
The guys at Ridgway avoid them because of the high failure rate and flippie adjustments.There just not considered a serious tool for this type of work and this amount shooting.

The two scopes you see the most are Nightforce and Sightron.
I used the 5-25x56 PMII for a season.Have about 2500 rounds on it.As it gets used on just about everyting.Took it off and replaced it with a 12-42x56 NSX.The reason is the P3 reticle pretty much covers the crows at 850.
Right now I have the Nightforce on the 17 pounder and a fixed 24x Sightron on the 12 pounder.
Its all good so far.
Examples of one dont mean much.



dave

Opened box, inspected new scope, power ring was very hard to turn. Closed box, mailed back to Leupold on my dime. Three weeks later get scope back and power ring normal. Thanks for the insight though.

The games you shoot pretty much explain it, Dave.

It's fine to use scopes that are iffy for games where you shoot pretty much at one yardage or at distances with little differential. You're not dialing the scope too much. The click values and reticle values being wrong won't effect things too much. You think 40 targets is a lot of shooting? What's that, once a month?

The games I play pretty much mirror hunting. The click values and reticle values for hold off matter. 1st round hits matter

I have a 100 yard zero on the scope and it's constantly being dialed up and down out to 1200 yards all day in matches that the round count varies from 60 to 200. That doesn't include practice. 2 to 3 matches per month

Let's talk about reliability through punishment now.

You shoot games where your rifle is on a nice bench in a bench rest.

My rifle is being hauled over the course like hunting scenarios. The rests vary from prone with a bipod to slamming the forend down on a boulder, using the scope as a point of contact on a barricade or tree trunk and even against the side of an old adobe window in a building. That't to say nothing about being sandblasted with wind and dirt. Falling with your rifle in hand while moving between shoot positions happens.

Here's an example. Tony happens to be shooting a S&B...





Round count?

I have 4 Mark 4's. One is on a competition rifle that has had 3 barrels on it. Same scope. Older model Mark 4 with MOA adjustments and the TMR.

The new Mark 4 M5 A2 34mm mounted on my Creedmoor now is the best scope my gunsmith has ever seen or had the pleasure to mount and evaluate. The click values are perfect through the total travel of available elevation...23 MILS

The scope tracks perfectly through the entire available travel, never veering from the vertical line on the board out to 23 MILS when the knob stops

The adjustments are the most responsive he's seen. No lag between adjustment and movement. The glass is second to none.

All of the above can be said about the Vortex line as well. Both are a lot of scope for the money. Just put a VX3 4/5-14 40mm CDS LR TMR on my lightweight hunting rifle. Reticle is perfect and click value is .247 Only gets to be really off at 52 1/2 MOA of travel. That gets me reliably to 1200 yards


So you evaluate scopes by what others tell you and seem to use more in the games you play and by seeing your groups grow over mounting round count?

From Lowlight on Snipers Hide:

So what do you tell the guy who traveled 1200 miles to take a class.. he paid $1500 for the class, plus rental car, hotels, meals, and by the first day it fails... now he goes from what he thought was a solid optics with a stellar reputation to being the guy holding up the class while we run up, get a new scope for him, usually I am pulling one of my NF off to switch it for him. If you want to play the one up and working, the NF I use is heavily used, my S&Bs too, and guess what, of all of them, with more combined rounds than I can count, and only one scope has ever gone back for repair. They well worn and definitely show signs of use.

yes, other brands fail, but not nearly with the frequency as we are seeing with Leupold. it's every week in some cases, and even in the military classes we have Nightforce on the unit rifles next to Leupold... but I don't see the NF failing nearly as much, it's stark the reality of it, especially when you see more than 1 or 2 a week.

It's easily 20 to 1 when you compare the Nightforces on the line with the military units, this last class had 4 Leupolds on the line, 1 failed the first day, the remainders where USO, NF, and S&B... Do we see others fail, sure but not nearly as much.

If you want to start a generic scope failure thread go ahead, but don't be surprised by the results. Facts are what the facts are, in a class of 15 Leupolds on the line I expect and account for anywhere from 2 to 5 scopes to go down, I don't figure that with the same number of NF on the line. Its closer to 1 per every six months of classes, not 1 for every six people.



That army man stuff looks like fun.
I see he is running a S&B..
My history with leupold is not a happy one and I avoid them now a days.
I just dont trust them.
Kevin Cram says Sightron all day long.For the amount of shooting we do.40 targets for score.. sighters..practice..load development.. for the money, hard to beat.
So far mine has held up well.
Perhaps Leupold is better now.
Ill still pass.

dave

I'm going to have to take my remaining 2 Leupolds out and see how they do, pertaining to RTZ and accurate tracking. They've both done well THUS far, but I have indeed had them poop the bed before.

It'll be educational, at least. The real bummer I see is that not many companies offer something similar to Leupold- a nice lightweight offering with turrets. But Zeiss's turret options seem solid, and now Burris's C4 could change things up a bit, too.

I know Frank and have read what he thinks.

Your evaluation method is really good. Hearsay.


Curious why you have Sightrons and Nightforce scopes on your rifles but have a S&B logo on your sig line?

I did a RTZ test with the Sightron at 100 yards.
5, 3 shot groups starting at 0 and running up to 26 inches.
One shot at each value and then move up.When I got to 26, back to zero and then repeat.
It was off about 1.2/1.4 at 26 inches.
It repeated spot on.Wasnt totally right for the amount at the upper end, but it did repeat.
For a fixed 24x at 17 oz.Ill take it.
Have something like 900 rounds on it right now and counting.
Only time will tell how well it holds up.
It has the front AO.
So I rotated the scope 90 degrees in the rings and have the windage in my left hand.
Ever so handie when in a hurry.
dave

I said usually....you are awfully sensitive

I think it's funny that you quote Frank about scope failures as an authority, then in the next breath slam his practical rifle match, the Snipers Hide Cup (his match since you don't know) as "playing Army Man".

You shoot benchrest

Your sig line promotes a product you don't use on your own rifles?

I'm guessing you're in your late 70's?

BTW,

Here's a scope evaluation sheet to help. You'll see that my 600$ Leupold is off by 1/2 MOA at 45 MOA as compared to your sightron which is off by 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 MOA at only 26 MOA dialed. That equates to .238 MOA click value for your scope as opposed to the worthless Leupold's .247 MOA click value all the way out to 52 MOA. And it RTZ perfectly.

Franks assessment must be pretty accurate to get you all worked up.
You just keep drinking that Kool-Aid.


dave

pics of your shoots please

Yep, I'm in a frenzy here.

May not sleep tonight

Thinking I make Lamborghini my sig line logo

Need that sticker on the back of your Yugo..

Yep.

Just like dave has a S&B sticker on his scope covering where it says "Sightron"