Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics Chinese made ED binoculars

Never been a fan of the "made in China" optics, but with all the new Ed made binos out and the prices seeming very reasonable I'm considering a pair of 8x42s.
Of all the brands out there the Bresser Everest seems like the best buy to me

Lets here the good, the bad and the ugly from your chinese made ED binoculars

I don't have Chinese ED glass but I do have a pair of Chinese made Zen Ray ZRS 8x42 that I'm happy with for the price paid. I don't think I could have found any better binos for around $200 a couple years ago when I bought them.

I've got a pair of zen ray ED2 8x43's that I bought on closeout/demo from cameraland. I like them a lot for the $200 I paid for them. I've got a pair of Swarovski 10x42 slc's and the swaros are nicer, but the price differential is huge. For the money I think the zen rays are a great value, you'd have to pay at least 3x what they cost to get anything close to them. Quality seems pretty good, I haven't had any trouble out of them at all. I doubt they'd be as rugged as a set of $2000 alphas, that's just asking a bit much of the price point. I use mine as truck binos and loaners for anyone that doesn't have any or has forgotten theirs. One friend I prairie dog hunt with doesn't own any binos and he goes straight for the zen rays whenever we go out west, I've got my money's worth out of them just from that use alone. Cameraland has the zen ray ED3 demos for $330, that's a great deal. I bought my ED2's that way and they were perfect, I've also bought a demo Swarovski scope from them that was perfect.

+1 on the Zen-Ray.

I have a pair of Zen Ray ED3's that are just fantastic. I can't begin to tell you how happy I am with them. I can have them plastered to my face all afternoon hunting without getting eye fatigue. Excellent value for the money.

Dan

Vanguard Endeavor ED 10x42 here. Most impressive.

Anyone using the Bressers? I like the size and weight of these

I haven't seen the Bressers, but a lot of Chinese binoculars are built in the same factories. Have had a lot in my hands and the exterior resemblances of many "brands" are obvious--and the optical quality can be as well.

That doesn't mean they're all identical, however. Usually some feature or another is tweaked at the request/order of whoever's putting their name on the outside, so there can be performance differences, both mechanical and optical.

Before China became the big, new optical producer, the same thing was going on with Japanese binoculars. About a dozen years ago I received three made-in-Japan 8x42's that aside from the rubber armor and name, were obviously built in the same factory on the same basic frame.

But that doesn't mean that all Chinese binoculars are the same. Zen Ray was one of the first companies to offer good Chinese glass and they have steadily improved in several ways, because ZR has done a very good job of marketing and has made some great upgrades.

But I've seen enough different Chinese binoculars over the past 5 years or so to cease being amazed by a new brand that offers very good optics for a very affordable price. They know how to make good glass.

OK the good is that by an large there really are no bad binoculars in today's mid range ED/HD binoculars, that includes the Chinese connection optics. Not a lot of real need to spend over $5-600 these days. I'm with Mule Deer. I have ceased to be amazed at a terrific new binocular, even with some not even costing $200

The bad is of course the Chinese connection. In spite of my doing some favorable reviews of Chinese optics, I wish they could be made elsewhere. My recommendations have always been optical, never political. I leave it to the purchaser to figure out where to spend their $$.

The ugly is the political and regulatory stupidity that forces businesses to do their business outside our borders. Better tax policies and some sensible regulations (maybe that's an oxymoron) might keep some of that business here.

The way I see it you are going to have a hell of a time overcoming your very obvious bias. We are all victims of our preconceived notions, and optical instruments and what our preconceived notions tell us we are going to see before we even look, are a powerful determiner of what we ultimately see. We create our own self fulfilling prophecies .So you are going to have to unlearn a lot of what you think you know. I think you might be best served with the Bresser straight off, as you seem to have some preconceptions of its quality. But to get anywhere you are going to have to abandon any and all brand loyalties and let the binocular talk to you and just sit back look at the image and listen to what it has to say. Forget the badge on the outside and see how the construction stands up to your requirements.

I have come to the point where I tend to think all of the Brand A vs. Brand B baloney is just that, a lot of baloney. Every face, eyes and set of hands, while having similarities necessary due to the fact we are all of the same species, are in the end different. I have come to see there is no way to tell how one particular set of biological DNA is going to react to a certain optical DNA. The thing is, you will get a lot of recommendations, including some from me before I sign off. Point is none are all wrong and maybe most are not right.

The final arbiter of user satisfaction is how the binocular fits your face and eyes. The most important single factor in user satisfaction is if the binocular has the proper eye relief, next is how well the eye cups fit your face. If the eye relief is right and the eye cups are comfortable, you will be able to hold them to your face in what is natural to you. That goes a long way to whether or not you like it. If the thing balances well in the bargain, so much the better.

Next, just what is "made in China" to you? Believe me there are countless ways for a modern optical instrument to have Chinese connections of some sort. For instance I want to know what you think of a company who is headquartered in the USA, has a factory in the USA to boot. The glass is designed in their factory by their engineers. The prototypes are built largely in their in house CNC shop. Now they go to China. This outfit happens to own a glass making facility, mix, pour, cut, grind, polish, and coat. They tell their wholly owned factory what they need in the glass for the design. Their own factory produces all the various lens to the required specifications. They then go to their own company owned assembly plant, where their company engineers supervise the final assembly. The are shipped to their factory here, and sent to sales outlets. The whole kit and caboodle is under their control from design to the final packaging. What sort of parts like rubber armor, screws, eye cup covers, etc are outsourced I have no idea, but some for sure are. So is this "Made in China"? It says so on the label because they are a US company and it has to say that to comply with US law. Or do you believe "Made in Germany" on the label, even though European Union laws require only 10% of the final product to be actually German. Some brands actually do call up a Chinese source and say something like I'll take ten cases of item #17, just put them in green armor with my name on it. So it is important to look at the company, its reputation and what sort of warranty and service they have.

My first example is not theoretical. I'm talking about Kruger Optical based in Sisters, Oregon. Their Caldera is a hell of a glass for a really decent price. Mule Deer has related positives about their Backcountry series and it is not in the same league as the Caldera.

Zen Ray has a facility in China. I have long been a fan of their products, and their stuff at any price level is as good as it is going to get at that price level. Leupold has more Chinese connections than you shake a stick at. I'd not be surprised to find them with capabilities like Kruger at some point in the future.

So what I'd do is take whatever steps you can take based on the difficulty you have in finding stuff to look at based on your location. Order some from outlets with decent return policies. Look at a few. Visit what dealers you can, you will find a few more. You'll probably find one you like.

Size and weight are the biggest concerns of the Zens to me.. They will be used for spot and stalk type hunting. I try not to carry anymore weight or bulk than necessary

OK, that's a legitimate concern. The Kruger's are really compact and have an industry leading fov. The Bresser is less than an ounce lighter than the ZEN ED 3.

I have the ED2 8x43 and the glass is excellent to my eyes. I also have Zeiss 7x42 FL T*. Much to my surprise and in a way, dismay given the $$$, I cannot tell a dimes worth of differnce in term of low light performance between the two.

Steve,

Excellent posts.

One of the new realities is that today's "affordable" optics are better than the so-called "alpha glass' of 25 years ago--and everything keeps changing rapidly.

338,

I think the most important thing to consider with Chi-com optics is the warranty and customer service.

China is now making really nice optics, but they are still behind the Western world in terms of quality control, whether by intent or circumstance. I firmly believe that as a country, they are more concerned with producing low cost items rather than ultimate high quality items. But, I also believe this will change over time.

I deal with Chinese products on a regular basis for industrial vehicles. QC is a constant problem, even when the parent company is European or American. We have seen repeatedly where Chinese vendors will supply HVPT (High Volume Production Tooling) parts that meet our spec, but as time goes on the quality starts to drift. Its always a game with them and requires constant inspection. They are capable of high quality products, but there is a cost. At a certain point it is no longer profitable to use China since that level of expertise to produce the desired level of quality can be had elsewhere.

If you buy a dud, you need the warranty and CS of the American vendor right after the purchase. Or if something fails on your binos next year, you want to make sure that the company is still in business. I think you need to evaluate this before buying any Chi-com optics. A nice pair of binos that cost $300-400 is money down the toilet if the vendor is not around next year.

Now having said that, I have a pair of Zen Ray ED2 that are awesome. I've compared them numerous times to my Swaro LRF and 8x32 NEU and the Zens are brighter at night and have less flare. There is nothing about the NEU that I found better than the ED2 other than size... BUT, I had an issue with the first pair of Zens. Didn't surprise me since I deal with Chinese parts on a regular basis. Anymore I assume that final inspection and QC isn't exactly a priority for many companies in China. I also know that if I want a good deal, this is the risk that you take and to mitigate the risk you just need to buy from a reputable vendor/dealer/"manufacturer". Easy really.

What was important was the fact that Zen Ray took care of the problem. Without the warranty and customer service I would have been stuck with crappy binos and a bad taste for Chi-com optics.

Jason

if you want a good pair of binocs at a good price.. get a pair of vortex vipers with there HD lens. Phenomenal for the money is all i can say.

I'm in China every now and then with my job and my perceptions of the Chinese are similar.

They're capable of making just about anything you want. The problem is that after a while they'll start slipping sub-standard parts and cutting other corners on production hoping to save a little here and there to increase their profit margins, betting that the customer won't figure it out. You've got to stay on top of them with inspections or they'll do it and product quality will suffer. They'll also make knock offs of your product and sell it on the black market. One thing I've seen is with Callaway golf clubs. When callaway changed the design of their golf club heads the factory that was making them kept producing them from the old molds and selling them out the back door. They had the callaway name on them and were made in the same factory, but they never touched the callaway distribution channel and callaway got none of the profits. They were essentially indistinguishable from a real one since they were the same thing. Part of me says that the companies that this happens to deserve it because they should have known what they were getting into dealing with the Chinese. Patent/copyright rights mean less than nothing to the Chinese, they just don't care about that. Any intellectual property they can steal and copy they will. The Chinese aren't the Japanese, they've got a completely different set of business ethics. If a Japanese gets caught cheating you he'll go in the back and run a knife through his belly for dishonoring his family, the Chinese will just high five each other. Totally different cultures.

crow hunter..... very informative post, i knew about the callaway golf clubs.. its not just them though, its all golf club manufacturers. Im a entusiastic golfer (i suck though) but im a club nut just like i am a gun nut. If it doesnt have a factory verified serial number its fake in the golf club world.

338,

Some great posts in this thread so far. There are a couple of points mentioned previously that I want to elaborate on further before getting into the specifics of various models.

As mentioned above, quality control is going to be the biggest obstacle to overcome. The Chinese bins/scopes that I have handled can be very good optically and mechanically, if you get a good specimen. That last part is the key. I have handle some bins with excellent optics but because of poor quality control I ended up returning them.

On the flip side though, if you get a good unit then the performance and quality can be very, very surprising.

Having said that I see you keep returning to the Bressers. I have owned them and posted a thread both here and on Birdforum in regards to them. The links are:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=252458&highlight=Bresser+Everest

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...true/Bresser_Everest_ED_8x42#Post7536177

It is the same post on both forums but the birdforum one had over 440 replies so there is some extra info there.

The actually measured weight of the Bressers is 24 ounces where I think the Zens are around 27 or 28. Not a huge difference but if every ounce counts then it is worthy of being mentioned. The Bressers appear to be built on the same platform as the Alpen Wings ED and Celestron Granite. The optical performance is very similar to the Bushnell Legend Ultra with a slightly different color bias.

There are many reasonably priced Chinese ED bins to consider. In my opinion, not counting the Leupold McKinley or the ZR Prime HD, the ED3s are the cream of the crop when it comes to just optical performance. They are the brightest, most color neutral and one of the sharpest of them. However, they are long binoculars (which is one of the reasons why the optics are so good overall) and the weight is in the upper range (though they aren't overly heavy in the hand because of their balance). The Vortex Viper HD is probably their only true competitor from an optical perspective. You gain lighter weight and smaller size with the Vipers but you give up some of the field of view.

Others I have reviewed/owned include the previously mentioned Bresser, the Zhumell Nova ED, the Hawke Frontier ED, Bushnell Legend Ultra and the Promaster Infinity Elite ELX ED. The Hawke, Promaster, Atlas Optics Intrepid and Vortex Talon are all basically the same design as the Zens but they differ in one or two features or performance areas. Links to my reviews on some of these models are here:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=263525&highlight=Zhumell+Nova

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=213464&highlight=Bushnell+Legend+Ultra

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=1513714&postcount=60

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=122545&highlight=Promaster

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=124448&highlight=Zen+Ray+ED3+8x43

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2193536&postcount=49

I have come to the point where I am beginning to think the reason we get so much crap from China, is that the end result is OK with those who sell it. Parts for almost anything, especially really good parts (farm machinery for instance) are getting fewer and farther between. The old stand bay dead bang good made in the USA is not, for the most part nearly as good these days.

I think the optics industry is a little bit different. Optics users give the sellers a lot of grief and sellers have responded with demanding better stuff from their Chinese sources. Companies are even investing in their own facilities there so they can have more control over the final product.

One reason I'm starting to really like Meopta, besides awesome performance is that all of their products are 100% made by them, in their own facilities.