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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
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When I used a reticle to range animals, I sat down at a bench with a target with 1" squares a taped 100 yards away, and measured the reticle against the target, instead of relying on anybody's listed subtension.
I also measured the chest depth of a bunch of animals, including pronghorn, deer, caribou and elk, getting enough samples to come to a reasonable average, especially for mature bucks and bulls. But it sure doesn't work with bears! They can be all over the place, both due to size and hair.
As I noted before, it worked quite well out to around 500 yards, but gets iffy beyond that, both because of the probability of some error in ranging and the increasingly steep trajectory--especially for first-shot hits.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Outfitter
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As I noted before, it worked quite well out to around 500 yards, but gets iffy beyond that, both because of the probability of some error in ranging and the increasingly steep trajectory--especially for first-shot hits.
The 26 Nosler is gonna change all that:)
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Campfire Regular
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I guess he misread the wind by a 12" miss. There is your problem. Two problems, actually. #1 you don't "guess" #2 inches have nothing to do with shooting rifles at distance To correct #1 you measure the difference in POA and POI with your reticle. To correct #2 you tell the shooter the number you determined in #1. Simple. No math required. You (and most LR shooters learning the ropes) are making it more difficult than it has to be. When it's time to shoot your rifle, leave the inches in the truck. NOTHING is done in inches or any other linear measurement.
Make a dope card in MILS. Dial/hold in MILS according to your dope card. Observe & correct (if needed) in MILS Too easy. Oh, and on the 5" zero correction @ 300 yards question.... If you can't see bullet holes to measure in mils you can't see them to measure in MOA. When you go to the target you mark the holes (dark permanent marker into the group center on a light target and vice-versa) and measure in MILS when you get back to your firing point. That avoids math altogether. If you just have to do math for some reason (that's just craziness, btw  ), keep in mind that there are 2.5 CM (2.54 but we don't need to worry about the 0.04) in one inch if you must measure your required correction in inches. 5" * 2.5 = 12CM 0.1 MIL (one "click" on most MIL scopes) works just like the one inch per 100 yard MOA thing does except it's 1CM per 100M. This is why people sometimes refer to MILS as "Metric" even though that's not correct. 12/3=4 (0.4 MILS correction) Again, too easy. If you need to convert yards/meters just remember meters + 10% for yards and yards - 10% for distance in meters. That's close enough to get you on target waaaay out there. Examples: 1000m +10% = 1100 yards (within 7 yards from the actual number) 1000y - 10% = 900 meters (within 14 yards from the actual number) I was a 100% MOA shooter many years ago. Made the switch to MILS and immediately saw the advantages. I finally sold my last MOA scope last week and will never go back. I would much rather deal with 6.9 MILS than 29.22 MOA. In the end, either system works. MILS are just a little simpler once you let go of linear measurements.
RLTW
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Joined: Oct 2009
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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^^^What he says in a well explained post. I switched over to mils nine years ago.....it was very easy.
FWIW, most Tac Comps are not held on square ranges, and are very simalar to hunting senerios. The shooter has the responsibilty of finding targets, ranging them and making first rounds hits without anyone telling him what to do with the wind, shot angle, posistion, or where the first round hit falls, etc....very challinging and very good practice for any hunter.
Luck....is the residue of design... ![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/96zvyt.gif)
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Joined: Mar 2006
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I guess he misread the wind by a 12" miss. There is your problem. Two problems, actually. #1 you don't "guess" #2 inches have nothing to do with shooting rifles at distance To correct #1 you measure the difference in POA and POI with your reticle. To correct #2 you tell the shooter the number you determined in #1. Simple. No math required. You (and most LR shooters learning the ropes) are making it more difficult than it has to be. When it's time to shoot your rifle, leave the inches in the truck. NOTHING is done in inches or any other linear measurement.
Make a dope card in MILS. Dial/hold in MILS according to your dope card. Observe & correct (if needed) in MILS Too easy. Oh, and on the 5" zero correction @ 300 yards question.... If you can't see bullet holes to measure in mils you can't see them to measure in MOA. When you go to the target you mark the holes (dark permanent marker into the group center on a light target and vice-versa) and measure in MILS when you get back to your firing point. That avoids math altogether. If you just have to do math for some reason (that's just craziness, btw ), keep in mind that there are 2.5 CM (2.54 but we don't need to worry about the 0.04) in one inch if you must measure your required correction in inches. 5" * 2.5 = 12CM 0.1 MIL (one "click" on most MIL scopes) works just like the one inch per 100 yard MOA thing does except it's 1CM per 100M. This is why people sometimes refer to MILS as "Metric" even though that's not correct. 12/3=4 (0.4 MILS correction) Again, too easy. If you need to convert yards/meters just remember meters + 10% for yards and yards - 10% for distance in meters. That's close enough to get you on target waaaay out there. Examples: 1000m +10% = 1100 yards (within 7 yards from the actual number) 1000y - 10% = 900 meters (within 14 yards from the actual number) I was a 100% MOA shooter many years ago. Made the switch to MILS and immediately saw the advantages. I finally sold my last MOA scope last week and will never go back. I would much rather deal with 6.9 MILS than 29.22 MOA. In the end, either system works. MILS are just a little simpler once you let go of linear measurements. Good post. But mils ARE metric...  Radians are the SI standard unit of angular measure.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,935 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,935 Likes: 1 |
I guess he misread the wind by a 12" miss. There is your problem. Two problems, actually. #1 you don't "guess" #2 inches have nothing to do with shooting rifles at distance To correct #1 you measure the difference in POA and POI with your reticle. To correct #2 you tell the shooter the number you determined in #1. Simple. No math required. You (and most LR shooters learning the ropes) are making it more difficult than it has to be. When it's time to shoot your rifle, leave the inches in the truck. NOTHING is done in inches or any other linear measurement.
Make a dope card in MILS. Dial/hold in MILS according to your dope card. Observe & correct (if needed) in MILS Too easy. Oh, and on the 5" zero correction @ 300 yards question.... If you can't see bullet holes to measure in mils you can't see them to measure in MOA. When you go to the target you mark the holes (dark permanent marker into the group center on a light target and vice-versa) and measure in MILS when you get back to your firing point. That avoids math altogether. If you just have to do math for some reason (that's just craziness, btw ), keep in mind that there are 2.5 CM (2.54 but we don't need to worry about the 0.04) in one inch if you must measure your required correction in inches. 5" * 2.5 = 12CM 0.1 MIL (one "click" on most MIL scopes) works just like the one inch per 100 yard MOA thing does except it's 1CM per 100M. This is why people sometimes refer to MILS as "Metric" even though that's not correct. 12/3=4 (0.4 MILS correction) Again, too easy. If you need to convert yards/meters just remember meters + 10% for yards and yards - 10% for distance in meters. That's close enough to get you on target waaaay out there. Examples: 1000m +10% = 1100 yards (within 7 yards from the actual number) 1000y - 10% = 900 meters (within 14 yards from the actual number) I was a 100% MOA shooter many years ago. Made the switch to MILS and immediately saw the advantages. I finally sold my last MOA scope last week and will never go back. I would much rather deal with 6.9 MILS than 29.22 MOA. In the end, either system works. MILS are just a little simpler once you let go of linear measurements. ^^^What he says in a well explained post. I switched over to mils nine years ago.....it was very easy.
FWIW, most Tac Comps are not held on square ranges, and are very simalar to hunting senerios. The shooter has the responsibilty of finding targets, ranging them and making first rounds hits without anyone telling him what to do with the wind, shot angle, posistion, or where the first round hit falls, etc....very challinging and very good practice for any hunter. I also switched from MOA to MILs and will not go back. Both above posts are 100% accurate and well explained
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Good post. But mils ARE metric... Radians are the SI standard unit of angular measure. Are they? SI may adopt them as standard, but no particular set of units is necessary to define a radian.
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Joined: Sep 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Posts: 26,524 |
Good post. But mils ARE metric... Radians are the SI standard unit of angular measure. Are they? SI may adopt them as standard, but no particular set of units is necessary to define a radian. your initial question really got me thinking about the whole thing again, been a while since I actually used mils, and even then, that was under the pretext of the U.S. Army - and a brief stint using a Zeiss. But they are dimensionless, by definition, like sine and cosine. The only reason they really got into SI, is its reliance on base 10, and the ease of 1 meter over 1000 meters (or 1cm over 100m (.1 mil)) but it works just as easy with 1 ft over 1000 feet. You start getting goofy when you go to inches over yards.
Last edited by RWE; 01/21/14.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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With the way shooters use them, the 1cm over 100m for .1mil is only an approximation anyway.
In the proper definition of a radian, the 1cm is wrapped along the outside of a 100m circle, whereas shooters treat the 1cm as a vertical displacement perpendicular to the line of sight.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Hello all, my name is Engine 22 and I made the switch to MILS�..
Target size X 1000
---------------------- = range in YDS
Target size in MILS
"�..the guys at sniper's hide..," -- this made me laugh a little.
What's with all this bickering back and forth? How about we agree that it doesn't matter one way or the other what freaking measurement you use or I use. Just be prepared to make the shot by knowing YOUR system.
NRA member
Mill Creek Rifle Club member
DeSoto, KS
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Joined: Sep 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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With the way shooters use them, the 1cm over 100m for .1mil is only an approximation anyway.
In the proper definition of a radian, the 1cm is wrapped along the outside of a 100m circle, whereas shooters treat the 1cm as a vertical displacement perpendicular to the line of sight. I started thinking that day about chord versus arc, but I do that enough at work; besides at extended difference for small arms, it's probably not a concern.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Examining the Maclaurin series for tangent and arctangent shows the error is small for small values of the argument.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Hello all, my name is Engine 22 and I made the switch to MILS�..
Target size X 1000
---------------------- = range in YDS
Target size in MILS
"�..the guys at sniper's hide..," -- this made me laugh a little.
What's with all this bickering back and forth? How about we agree that it doesn't matter one way or the other what freaking measurement you use or I use. Just be prepared to make the shot by knowing YOUR system.
Well said. I am a little late in life making the swap to mils, but am trying. MOA has served me very well and is very ingrained. I could probably do everything I ever need done using MOA. It is hard swapping from something that works and that you know. I can see some advantages so am making the swap. The real problem is thinking in mils versus thinking in MOA. If I were a little smarter it would probably be easier.
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You're a trained sniper? I thought snipers were trained to use mil reticles to range live targets. I could be wrong.
Trouble is how often does the target stand perfectly upright and perpendicular? That applies to humans on the battle field and game standing at less than ideal angles.. There are lots of variables when using a reticule to range a live target and the more variables, the less accuracy..
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Personally I believe this entire situation evolves around a bunch of 'youngsters' that didn't have balls enuff to join the military whom are now wishing to 'play sniper' by adopting the MILS system!
Wannabe snipers!
Makes me laugh!!
Even birds know not to land downwind!
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Campfire Outfitter
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Good post. But mils ARE metric... Radians are the SI standard unit of angular measure. Are they? SI may adopt them as standard, but no particular set of units is necessary to define a radian. Of course I don't have to tell you this, but... By definition "metric" means that SI has adopted a certain unit as the standard, using a decimal system of measurement. Radians have been adopted, and the decimal system certainly passes the smell test Radian, milliradian, etc. Base powers of ten is a tell-tale feature of most metric units.
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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A radian is a radian in any base.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Personally I believe this entire situation evolves around a bunch of 'youngsters' that didn't have balls enuff to join the military whom are now wishing to 'play sniper' by adopting the MILS system!
Wannabe snipers!
Makes me laugh!! who the hell they gonna snipe? Its a bunch of folks learning you can shoot deer past 200 yards if you practice a bit... they are learning to shoot longer. At least thats the ones taht I read of.... Laser it, correct it shoot it, give me a call in something I know for correction, generally I'm not far enough off that you can't just say hold 4 inches left, or 12 inches higher... I can do that instantly without correcting anything. To do mils everyone involved has to understand them.... which would be nice, granted... but ain't common unless you are paid to shoot at people.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Tracker
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For ranging game I think the mils are best use as a backup plan or to confirm nothing is wrong with your LRF. I have had problems getting a good reading on flat ground and if a lazer is telling me 500 yards and I am seeing something other than close to .5mil I had better recheck something.
The other point that is being missed on using a mil is it is least accurate when you need it most. An error under 500yards can be survived but if your off 50 yards at 800 (which I think is incredibly easy to do in the field without an exact size of a target)it could easily be enough to screw up a drop or wind correction.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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A radian is a radian in any base. This. Metric us nothing to do with it, similarities or not. 1 Mil = 1 inch @ 1000 inches 1 Mil = 1 foot @ 1000 feet 1 Mil = 1 yard @ 1000 yards 1 Mil = 1 peckerjoule @ 1000 peckerjoules
RLTW
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