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Campfire 'Bwana
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I could of just as easily said Chinese or Indian girls. In Indian about 30% of baby girls are murdered hours after their birth. I mentioned the plight of the unadopted black children because it's closer to home.
Without abortion we would of had an additional 25mm babies of African descent in this country. Would Christians have adopted them and raised them as good conservatives, or would we be buying 25 million Obama phones for them, AND OBAMA PHONES FOR ALL THEIR KIDS AS WELL??
55 Million abortions, 73% of the women claimed they were due to economic hardship. THAT WORKS OUT TO AN ADDITIONAL 3.5 TRILLION DOLLARS IN WELFARE PAYMENTS.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 01/23/14.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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I could of just as easily said Chinese or Indian girls. In Indian about 30% of baby girls are murdered hours after their birth. I mentioned the plight of the unadopted black children because it's closer to home.
Without abortion we would of had an additional 25mm babies of African descent in this country. Would Christians have adopted them and raised them as good conservatives, or would we be buying 25 million Obama phones for them, AND OBAMA PHONES FOR ALL THEIR KIDS AS WELL??
55 Million abortions, 73% of the women claimed they were due to economic hardship. THAT WORKS OUT TO AN ADDITIONAL 3.5 TRILLION DOLLARS IN WELFARE PAYMENTS. So it comes down to good reasons to kill children? Why stop with the unborn ones?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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There are cost associated with imposing your beliefs on others. If you are not willing to personally shoulder those costs, you must don't really believe.
As for you sister, your growing up with here was the result of decisions made by your parents.
So I ask again. Are you willing to shoulder the cost yourself and walk the walk, or do you expect others to bear the financial costs of your beliefs?
My wife and I have raised six children to adulthood and we have taken in six others I call strays that lived with us from one to five years. At no time were those children on any kind of tax payer handouts. That is no foster care or food stamps. I have fathered one child. As I have stated early on in this thread, my sister in law, that is my wife's baby sister, was raped. The result of that rape is just setting up his medical practice. She was a young single girl just out of high school when raped. The family paid all the costs of her pregnancy and the early years of her child's life until she met and married a good man. Again, no tax dollars involved. All the children that passed through our home were mostly white, one was have Native American. However no child weather red, yellow, black, or even paisley would have been turned away from our home. So yes, I raised and supported a lot of other peoples kids and I still stand behind my beliefs that abortion is in most cases wrong. I believe that life starts at the point of conception. As for the fertile chicken egg, it is alive until it is killed. Refrigeration kills a chicken egg but one left for weeks at room temperature can be hatched. Scott, everyone know you walk the walk, and I respect you for it.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Ranger
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I could of just as easily said Chinese or Indian girls. In Indian about 30% of baby girls are murdered hours after their birth. I mentioned the plight of the unadopted black children because it's closer to home.
Without abortion we would of had an additional 25mm babies of African descent in this country. Would Christians have adopted them and raised them as good conservatives, or would we be buying 25 million Obama phones for them, AND OBAMA PHONES FOR ALL THEIR KIDS AS WELL??
55 Million abortions, 73% of the women claimed they were due to economic hardship. THAT WORKS OUT TO AN ADDITIONAL 3.5 TRILLION DOLLARS IN WELFARE PAYMENTS.
This position is pure Hitleresque EVIL.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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There are cost associated with imposing your beliefs on others. If you are not willing to personally shoulder those costs, you must don't really believe.
As for you sister, your growing up with here was the result of decisions made by your parents.
So I ask again. Are you willing to shoulder the cost yourself and walk the walk, or do you expect others to bear the financial costs of your beliefs?
My wife and I have raised six children to adulthood and we have taken in six others I call strays that lived with us from one to five years. At no time were those children on any kind of tax payer handouts. That is no foster care or food stamps. I have fathered one child. As I have stated early on in this thread, my sister in law, that is my wife's baby sister, was raped. The result of that rape is just setting up his medical practice. She was a young single girl just out of high school when raped. The family paid all the costs of her pregnancy and the early years of her child's life until she met and married a good man. Again, no tax dollars involved. All the children that passed through our home were mostly white, one was have Native American. However no child weather red, yellow, black, or even paisley would have been turned away from our home. So yes, I raised and supported a lot of other peoples kids and I still stand behind my beliefs that abortion is in most cases wrong. I believe that life starts at the point of conception. As for the fertile chicken egg, it is alive until it is killed. Refrigeration kills a chicken egg but one left for weeks at room temperature can be hatched. Scott, everyone know you walk the walk, and I respect you for it. Thank you Sir. I do see your point about the cost of unwanted and irresponsible pregnancies but the lack of self control is not an excuse to terminate those innocent lives in my mind. There is no easy solution. Anyone who thinks there is is not facing reality. Three of my children have decided not to have children of their own. I respect their decision even though our last grandchild is getting stale and we would like to have more. 
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Women have had the right to begin, prevent or end a pregnancy since as far back as men have been forcing themselves upon them.
"There's more to optics than meets the eye."--anon
"...most of us would be better off losing half a pound around the waist than half a pound on our rifle."--dhg
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I could of just as easily said Chinese or Indian girls. In Indian about 30% of baby girls are murdered hours after their birth. I mentioned the plight of the unadopted black children because it's closer to home.
Without abortion we would of had an additional 25mm babies of African descent in this country. Would Christians have adopted them and raised them as good conservatives, or would we be buying 25 million Obama phones for them, AND OBAMA PHONES FOR ALL THEIR KIDS AS WELL??
55 Million abortions, 73% of the women claimed they were due to economic hardship. THAT WORKS OUT TO AN ADDITIONAL 3.5 TRILLION DOLLARS IN WELFARE PAYMENTS. So it comes down to good reasons to kill children? Why stop with the unborn ones? I'm merely pointing out the possible negative consequences of your proposal, and asking if you would of been willing to fork out 3.5 trillion dollars to support an additional 55 million Obama voters?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Ranger
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The rape card has already been discussed.
It's, a red herring. As soon as one asks the abortion industry if they would stop all abortion on demand if it was available to the victims of rape and incest, you just hear crickets.
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Campfire Outfitter
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It is not a murder unless the killing is of a human.
What separates humans from animals? Sentience!
Is the single cell fertilized egg sentient?
Is the zygote sentient?
Personally I do not believe babies at birth are self aware. The activity of the new born human's brain is like that of any large mammalian baby. It runs on instinctive needs, hunger, and pain.
Sentience is sometime defined as the ability to be aware of one's mortality. Infants do not have such an ability. Heck most teenagers are blissfully unaware of their mortality.
Many have included as abortions and murder, anything which destroys an egg after conception.
I find it ludicrous to compare the use of an IUD to late term abortion. There can be no sentience when no cells have differentiated to become nervous tissue. There can be no human mind, so there can be no murder.
The potential for humanity exists in that tiny five day old blastocyst as it implants in the uterine wall, or is repelled by the presence of an IUD. But it does not exist yet.
If it is a sin to destroy the potential for humanity, we would have to force every girl to marry by her menarche, and have relations monthly during her fertile period lest one potential human be wasted. We each must determine where we would draw the line when it come to potential humanity in this over crowded world.
Personally, I am anti-abortion. As I love kids and adore our babies and grand babies.
But I am pro-choice.
How many abortions take place in the first five days? You need to base your argument on what is actually happening with abortions in this country. You can't be both pro choice and anti abortion based on an argument that has no bearing on the reality of the situation. Real human babies are being killed every day out of convenience. They look like tiny babies and I believe they feel pain. I am more sorry for a society that will rationalize the killing of innocent children than I am for the children themselves. Spot on, and sad to say things will only get worse.
Will Munny: It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have.
The Schofield Kid: Yeah, well, I guess they had it coming.
Will Munny: We all got it coming, kid.
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Campfire Ranger
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How many abortions take place in the first five days?
Billions each year.
Thirteen times a year for most any women using an IUD. And the IUD is the most common form of birth control in the most populous nations on Earth.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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While this is very true in a technical sense and certainly the basis for a good discussion, in the context of this debate it is virtually an equivocation as we have been talking about the intentional dismemberment of the unborn by a skilled surgeon, for the most part.
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You must have missed several of the early posts where "from moment of conception" was mentioned.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Thank you Sir.
I do see your point about the cost of unwanted and irresponsible pregnancies but the lack of self control is not an excuse to terminate those innocent lives in my mind.
There is no easy solution. Anyone who thinks there is is not facing reality.
Three of my children have decided not to have children of their own. I respect their decision even though our last grandchild is getting stale and we would like to have more. grin You are very welcome my friend. You are very correct in stating there are no easy solutions. The reason this question is met with such consternation it that it resides at the confluence of our three greatest American Values. Our respect for life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. It involves the very structure of the most fundamental economic unit, the family, and the ties that may bind individuals in either love, or distress. Add in some religion, libertarianism, and emerging science that evolving our understanding of these process, concerns, weather founds of not, about over population, and a perceived extension of childhood until the mid 20's, coupled with a more resource intensive child rearing process (everyone needs a College degree), and yes, this combines to make it one of the most complex questions of our time. As a (small l) libertarian, I prefer non-government solutions to the debate. As an example I fully support prolife people standing out front of Planned Parenthood clinics offering to adopt the potential babies of the clients as they walk in the door. Of course, unlike you, most of the protestors just stand there with their sign and aren't actually willing to DO something meaningful. As for grandkids, based on the pictures you've posted, you have a beautiful family, and I can appreciate why you would want a few more. They would be a blessing upon us all.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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While this is very true in a technical sense and certainly the basis for a good discussion, in the context of this debate it is virtually an equivocation as we have been talking about the intentional dismemberment of the unborn by a skilled surgeon, for the most part.
So far it's pretty much been and "all or nothing" discussion, and we haven't drilled down on the perceived differences based upon when the procedure occurs. There are no limbs to dismember "at conception".
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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You must have missed several of the early posts where "from moment of conception" was mentioned. The moment of conception is an argument about when life takes place. The reality is that most abortions take place much later than the point any person could argue that the life being aborted is just a clump of cells. Those taking part in abortion simply do not want to face the reality that they are killing a baby, so would rather argue about when life takes place, knowing all the time that the majority of abortions take place much later than the clump of cells they base their argument on.
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I will concede that you have a point, but, for me, the "from the moment of conception" comment is meant to describe life as a continuum where it is all human life and in that regard, I do find it problematic to be drawing arbitrary lines. No IUDs for us.
On this issue I have oft wondered how many folks have a question of there being a "possibility" of the contents of the womb being a human being, but lacking certainty. To that position, I would say that we always err on the side of not taking chances where a human life "might" be lost. We do not take shots over the horizon for this reason. There might be a human on the other side. No one in their right mind would just shoot through a tent where the contents are unknown because there might be a human inside. When it comes to human life, in other contexts, we always insist the tie goes to the runner. Why do we come to a different conclusion where the uterus is involved? Just curious.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Actually over 60% occur within the first 9 weeks, 87% within the first 12 weeks.
Gest. week Percent
<9 weeks 60.6%
9-10 17.1%
11-12 9.1%
13-15 6.3%
16-20 3.8%
> 21 1.3% Regardless I still imagine you would draw the line at conception?
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 01/23/14.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Ranger
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By absolutely no means do "most abortions" take place late in pregnancy.
The number of blastocysts destroyed via IUD is orders of magnitude greater than the number of late term abortions. Even if you only consider surgical and chemically induced abortions, the vast majority of those occur in the first trimester.
But, late term abortions get a lot of press because photos are quite shocking and they make great propaganda tools. Lots of people donate lots of money to save the babies.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Campfire Ranger
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While this is very true in a technical sense and certainly the basis for a good discussion, in the context of this debate it is virtually an equivocation as we have been talking about the intentional dismemberment of the unborn by a skilled surgeon, for the most part.
So far it's pretty much been and "all or nothing" discussion, and we haven't drilled down on the perceived differences based upon when the procedure occurs. There are no limbs to dismember "at conception". If that is the NOW discussion, you will find me pretty consistent. Kinda like I was just saying to Jim, I will err on the side of caution where human life is concerned. I would not want this new branch of the discussion to be a bunny trail away from brutal fetal dismemberment before we agree on the evil of that.
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Campfire Ranger
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I will concede that you have a point, but, for me, the "from the moment of conception" comment is meant to describe life as a continuum where it is all human life and in that regard, I do find it problematic to be drawing arbitrary lines. No IUDs for us.
On this issue I have oft wondered how many folks have a question of there being a "possibility" of the contents of the womb being a human being, but lacking certainty. To that position, I would say that we always err on the side of not taking chances where a human life "might" be lost. We do not take shots over the horizon for this reason. There might be a human on the other side. No one in their right mind would just shoot through a tent where the contents are unknown because there might be a human inside. When it comes to human life, in other contexts, we always insist the tie goes to the runner. Why do we come to a different conclusion where the uterus is involved? Just curious.
For me, personally.......I agree with you. As I said earlier, the only form of contraception that made sense to me and the Mrs was sterilization. I know for a fact that the blastocyst has no brain, but sometime later it becomes a person with a mind. I don't know when that is. And therefor I can not shove my opinion down another person's throat.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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