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Ah, but do you send a police car to every house in every neighborhood of the city and jot down the license plate numbers of every car to get a known associates list of everyone? Do you take pictures of every coming and going from every house in every neighborhood to determine with whom and when someone comes and goes? Do you then follow them to where they go? And then, finally do you take all that information gained from all that surveillance and place it in a database that is open to thousands of government employees, permanent, and unavailable for examination by the subjects? And this is not for people you suspect of crimes but rather to see if someone might be doing something that you think might make them suspect of criminal activity.

If all of that is according to the law and commonly done by police forces, then I guess you have a point. Otherwise, your analogy is pretty flawed.

I'm doing nothing wrong, listen away!!!!!

Good. A record will be kept of this post so that the next Clinton administration has knowledge of your proclivity for posting on a subversive message board with known ties to militia groups and other extreme right wing domestic terrorists. A note will be made in your file and local agencies will be notified to look into your dealings more closely.

Very good example of why we need to be concerned about this NSA activity.

HBB

Its time for everyone to refresh their aluminum foil they wear on their heads.

You say this procedure is used when the police think someone is involved in an illegal act.

So, what does it mean when the NSA randomly collects tens of millions of telephone numbers?

That there are perhaps tens of millions of potential terrorists and "known" associates afoot in the United States. If there is that many of the Jihadis on the loose were in big trouble.

Or how about this, the NSA is now tasked with tracking Intra-national "domestic"crime as well as extra-national threats such as terrorists or enemy nations.

Either way it doesn't look good.

HBB

Okay.. it was my understanding that it was the NSA's job to listen to foreign communications. Domestic would fall squarely into the lap of the FBI. No? NSA has no mandate or authority for domestic law enforcement, which like it or not is what domestic defense is about.

So why the NSA? Computerwise the NSA is FAR ahead of the FBI, which is the logical reason. They can handle the data and find out "interesting" facts about it so fast it's ridiculous. Got a old sweetheart you talk to occasionally but don't want the wife to find out about? Whoops... big brother knows now. Once they have this data it WILL never go away. Ever do anything or get involved with anybody back in college you don't like to admit to now? Pity the poor folks who'll have that information stored forever available to the gov't.


For terrorism it just doesn't make sense... the FBI should have a lot more info on domestic spying cases than the NSA does.

I manage, design and develop databases and data warehousing and data mining.. and this is NOT information that the gov't needs. There's too much noise for domestic calling to provide "patterns", unless you're just looking to justify the latest supercomputer cluster that the gov't slipped you money for. Using international calls to find "patterns" and then getting that information from the phone companies would easily give you what you need in 99% of the cases.

Sorry, gov't is using this for fishing expeditions and the opportunity for abuse will make Hoover look like an amateur. And if we heard about this one, what else aren't we hearing about?

I'm sure glad to hear some of you guys aren't defending Bush on this one -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not defending Bush, but don't give a damn.
Call me sheeple if you may; but call me when they use the program to arrest joe six pac, then I'll join you in charging abuse... until then, they can listen to my calls, I don't give a damn.

sheep, the american people are sheep, they let it go this far.

hey why can't we all sue these phone companies, they deserve it

VA,

I think you hit the nail on the head. Its statistical record keeping, UNTIL one number in particular comes up on the radar screen. Then every number associated with that number suddenly becomes a suspect too, then warrants for listening in, tapes, records, etc. This net is very large, starts with one being caught and multiplies exponentially (is that a word?).

Yep thats how its done. However the major difference is the level of expectation of privacy. There is a higher level of expectation of privacy on a landline phone, than a cordless phone, than a cell phone, etc. There is no expectation of privacy about your public comings and goings, where your car is parked, the tag # on your car, etc.

I would also add that I am sure they already have a large list of "red flagged" numbers...this is an attempt to broaden the list of "known associates".

AND, the case law out there makes a distinction in recording the numbers dialed vs listening to the substance of the conversation. I'd have to go to the law library to refresh my recollection to give more detail than that.

This country and it's citizens are really something. It reminds me of the story of the boy watching the sheep who fell asleep. If in the course of the present threats no action is taken all hell would break loose, and on the other side of the coin you're invading my privacy. If you live within the law who cares. Seems to me this may be a way to waste the time of the do nothings under the dome. it is getting more ridiculous!

Then it shouldn't bother you as a law abiding gun owner for the federal government to have a record of every firearm you own.

Jeff

Now, now, you know that gun registration is just a step down the road towards confiscation. While this electronic communication thing is just a......well.....uh..., damn!

Apples to oranges. The key distinction is that this program does not listen to or record the content of the call. It is more analagous to a cop in a squad car parked on the side of the road watching every car that goes by.

280Rem.: Smith v. Maryland is the law with respect to pen registers.

No, it is more analagous to a cop parked by every road in every state, in every county, in every town in the country. Information is power and power is control. That is what this is all about.

The case law doesn't exactly apply. Pen numbers are not private and were the surveillance targeted to suspected terrorist or their contacts, it might be okay. That is not the case here. This is a drag net and while it may not violate the 4th Amendment in the strictest sense, it does violate several federal laws against domestic surveillance and wiretapping. And, importantly, it is just one more instance where the Bush administration was not truthful with us when it claimed that they weren't monitoring the calls of American citizens.

Listen, we as firearms owners often get mad at civil liberty advocates because they ignore firearms rights. Well, the lesson applies to us as well. You can't ignore the erosion of other civil liberties because your own pet civil liberty is not being attacked. Our civil liberties are the legs of a platform called Liberty. If you knock a few of the legs down, then the platform will fall. No single civil liberty is able to support the platform. We have to protect them all or we will surely loose our liberty (assuming we haven't already).

I'm sympathetic to the sentiment and agree on many accounts. However, with all due respect, I think people are misunderstanding what is going on here. These aren't wiretaps and its not monitoring the content of the calls. That may be going on, but its pure speculation to assert it. Manipulating electronic data does not mean that anyone is listening to your calls.

I might also point out that if national security (also a civil liberty, in my opinion) falls, then our other civil liberties fall as well. This is about a national enemy that has entered our ranks. It would strike me as odd that the safest place a terrorist organization has to operate would be within our own borders. Personally, I draw a distinction between domestic law enforcement and national security, although I admittedly acknowledge that the line is blurred at this time. The answers aren't easy here.

We all completely understand that calls are not being tapped. Although, I think that is probably happening, but I will put that aside for the time being. There is a lot of information that can be garnered from merely knowing the numbers called by someone. The potential for abuse is just too high. It is truly a slippery slope. Once this information is in a database it will NEVER go away. It is there forever. While you are apparently confident that it won't infringe on our liberty now, are you so confident about ten, twenty, or even fifty years down the line? I am not. Oppressive governments do not spring into existence overnight. They are built steadily piece by piece until the entire framework is there waiting for someone to flip the switch. Information is the critical link in all oppressive regimes. They have the need to know everything about everyone. This is a step towards doing it.

AEL;

Whether the Blackmun decision in Smith v. Maryland is "right", Constitutionally, is debatable.

This, however, is just wrong. It looks wrong, it smell wrong, it sounds wrong, it feels wrong.

If I see something that looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck, and it sounds like duck.... then I'm gonna see it as a duck... and it won't matter how many times you tell me it's a chicken; it's a duck to me.

The NSA is spying domestically, on U.S. citizens, without warrants. Period.

That ain't right, no matter what administration happens to be in office, or for what "reason".