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P-A-C-E Primary, Alternate, Contingency, Emergency or rather some of that "moronic" military schidt.

I own two FF down bags and a JRB down quilt to go with my synthetic stuff. If I'm ever fortunate enough for a pilot to drop me off on an Alaskan beach again, I'll have a synthetic bag.

I live on Kodiak in the wet, wet Gulf of Alaska and spent almost 60 days in the field this past year using nothing but a down bag. I've used a down bag for years, and have even gotten it wet. I've actually been pleasantly surprised at how well they do work when wet. Basically it takes a lot to get them totally soaked, and until they get TOTALLY soaked they do dry out, and do it pretty quickly.

Once on an elk hunt In a floorless shelter without a bivy bag (don't ask why I made that dumb mistake) it rained/snowed for three days and I was getting worried about my bag - I'd say it got about 10 to 15 percent heavier. Pretty wet anyway, but I still stayed warm at night with temperatures in the upper 20s low 30s. It is a Marmot Helium bag.

I just use a stuff sack and generally keep it in a breathable bivy bag inside the bivy. Every morning I take it out of the bivy and press the air out of both and then stuff it right away back into the stuff sack. Once you get out of the bag the warm air condensates and drops its water - so you want to get that warm air out of the bag.

Anyway, I don't see anything drastic or scary about using a down bag in a wet environment. I've been doing it for 15 years or so in a pretty wet place.

Patrick

Honestly curious, no flames. How many consecutive nights have you backpacked or bivvied on Kodiak in Fall without any heated shelter and without any hard roof, using a down bag? Am wondering how long a down bag will retain loft in high humidity and relentlessly wet conditions. Backpack nights in elk country does not count unless it is Roosevelts on the West End of the Olympic Penninsula!

Good tip on getting the warm air out before moisture condenses. That will reduce the amount of condensation. Have done that but am also reluctant to stuff a bag with any trace of dampness in it, though we have to sometimes, then dry it at home.

In September I did 14 consecutive days on Afognak, and it got VERY ugly. But we did have a heated shelter. Ti goat stove and tent. These days I almost always have a heated shelter, but it wasn't always so. I do remember once going on a hunt with only a bivy bag and it rained for 2 straight days and nights. I remember thinking that a third night was going to be an iffy proposition.

But to go back to the original idea of this thread. I actually don't use down bags because they are light. I use down because it packs so much smaller. Back when I used to use synthetic bags I remember that they practically filled up the whole backpack. And then you needed to get a new one every other year or so too because they lost their loft.

My helium is finally getting a bit worn out but it is around 10 years old.

Also our elk on Afognak are Roosevelt elk, and I bet it is a lot like the Olympic Peninsula. Old growth spruce forest, and it rains a lot.

Patrick

I agree down for me works most of the time. However, when I can afford to haul the extra bulk/eight of a synthetic I do.

2012 on my second of a back to back mountain goat hunt, my down bag started losing loft rather rapidily over two nights as it was typical Kodiak 40 degrees, 100% humidity and raining. I was in a floorless shelter and found myself thankful we had tagged out the last day and were coming off the mountain as the bag had half the loft of its formal self. Were wasn't much to burn up in the alpine so having a stove wouldn't have helped.

For me there is a time and place for both. But I'm flying out on a goat hunt here in 2 weeks down your way and I'm bringing the wiggy's to leave at base camp where the plane is dropping us off and down up the hill.

Its the wet temps in the 30s and 40s that make me want synthetic bags and with no option for back up or hike out like on a fly out hunt.

Of course the guys on Everest are taking down, its NOT a wet environment. That analogy is pretty ridiculous. One of my hiking partners has been to the summit the highest peak on all 7 continents and used down for all his climbs, yet he still brings a synthetic bag when he feels its justified.

BTW Patrick if you'll be around when I fly in from the field I'd love to buy you a cup of coffee and swap stories with ya. Still follow your family's blog! Good stuff sir!

pgsalton, thank you. Good info.

Ditto to Alaska Lanche.

Good luck on the goat!

Okan, I'll take the moose

It just isn't that difficult to keep a down bag dry. Synthetics have their place... they're less expensive (don't last as long) and require less attention, but they don't compress well and are heavier. That leaves them out of the equation for me, unless for a base-camp sort of bag.

My first decent synthetic bag was a Snow Lion I got in the mid 70's... saw me through a lot of sub-zero nights, but I'd never pack a synthetic on a bonafied backpack trip anymore given the choice, and I don't care where it is. I used the Snowlion when I couldn't afford a comparable down bag in my financially strapped youth for winter climbing.

This stuff just isn't that hard, but I believe so many people repeat so many things they have little or no experience with that it becomes some sort of gospel. I especially notice that here.

For down think decent tent and VBL in super wet/cold conditions.

Oh well.

Have you ever crawled out of a VBL at minus 20F?

Only an idiot would reccomend a VBL in conditions like Lanche described above.

Hey goober, never recommended a VBL in above freezing temps like Lanche described (may want to read more carefully if you're able). I said COLD, not +20*... that's not cold.

A VBL's forte is keeping body moisture out of the down layers during extended trips in sub zero temps, not above freezing temps in wet-cold. Yeah, I've used VBL's in -20F... that's what they're for.

What a maroon.

"Wet/cold" means 10-40F dickhead, or at least it does to us ignorant former arctic infantrymen.

Back to the sane that can read, like I said down has to be treated a bit more carefully. You can't just crawl in it night after night in wet clothes, or use it night after night in a single walled tent in continually wet conditions unless it's got a dryloft or equivelent shell (or Bivy cover). A double wall tent and dry night long undies are your friend there... a VBL is your friend in brutal cold if out for more than a few nights.

Like I said, not hard.

Not to me... to me it means humid sub zero. My post, my meaning.

Brad you are a phuuuking idiot. You don't even understand the concept of relative humidity, "humid sub-zero". What a dumbschidt.

BTW TAK, in all your gallivanting around the world killing people on every continent and in every conceivable situation, how is it you can't get a Kimber MT to shoot?

Internet Ninja Warrior for sure

Hey dumbass, ever been out all day in sub zero and come back to a tent soaking wet? Guess where all that humidity goes? In your tent. That's the wet I'm talking about... the real kind that too many bring into their bags through lack of care and zap the loft.

And BTW, even though air is below freezing it can hold some humidity.

"Your post, your rules" huh. You are a sad sorry excuse for a man. I've never uttered a word about "killing people" except for asking arrogant azzwipes from MT how many people they've killed. How many have you killed Brad?

Not basing it off of anything I've read, I never really had a problem with down before that exceptionally wet trip on Kodiak that everything including my clothing and myself was saturated in water. Climbing in with damp base layers in to a WM bag that was moisture on the shell of the bag due to the single wall tent meant the down was getting the moisture from both ends.

Yep probably should have hauled a double wall tent up the hill instead. But really at that point is a double wall tent with a down bag lighter than a single wall floorless with a synthetic bag. Lots of ways to skin a cat for sure. So long as you found what works for you based off of experience then thats all that really matters. I certainly believe you when you say you've never had a problem with down, but that hasn't been my experience, yes just that one time, but still happened. I know I'm certainly not as an experienced backpacker as you Brad and still have a lot to learn, but this is simply based on an observation while I was in the field. You have a different experience and that is totally cool.

I think we could both care less which type of bag either of us uses.

A lecture on bags from a guy that doesn't even know what a VBL is for is pretty funny.

it can hold lots of humidity.....-20 an 80% is phuggin miserable as hell......

Absolutely right.

Like I said I believe they both have their place. How one sees that place is all that differs. There are lots of ways to skin the cat.

Single wall floorless in your wet area... yeah, without a good shell or bivy cover, you're going to start wetting your bag (from the outside)

But I prefer to not soak any bag, synthetic or down. But the synthetic will keep you safer (warmer) if soaked, no doubt.

My only disagreement with the one guy here was that keeping a down bag dry in wet environments can't be done. It can. I've done it from the Kenai to Katahdin.