Home Forums Birds & Dogs Turkey Hunting Winchester New Long Beard shells.

Has anybody tried them? I am a admirer of their Supreme Elite shells which you can't get anymore so am thinking of going to these. They get rave reviews but of course that's from the guys that they pay to use them. It looks like they are plated with a shell sleeve that is suppose to keep the shot together longer.
They claim kills out to 60 yards, but if you have to take a bird at 60 yards you're not going to go hunting with me.

I had my local guns shop guy oreder me a couple of boxes to try. Haven't pick them up yet. I got 3 1/2" #5's.

I can't find any 3" in stock. I want to try them, I have a back order or two in for them.

They're putting up patterns that blow any other lead shell away. It's not a shell sleeve. The pellets are encased in a solid resin that keeps the pellets from moving around in the shell/getting deformed. When the shell is fired, the resin shatters, and turns into buffer. They carry their energy down range like any standard lead load. Where they shine is pattern density, i.e. more hits on target. If you want to use lead, they are the shell to have.

I was able to play with them a while back and yes they are all that they say they are! The patter is tight enough that if you don't have some kind of optic on your shotgun you should seriously consider getting one as at 15 or 20yds it would be easy to miss the turkey's head completely as the pattern is so tight it's like shooting a 8" rifle! I'm not sure about 70yds but at 60yds I wouldn't have a problem shooting a bird. This was with 3" #6.

I would have a huge problem shooting a bird at 60 yards. With lead 6s you're seriously lacking pellet energy to reliably and consistently make clean kills. You might have the pattern density, but you won't have the energy. Much past 40 yards, and 6s start losing energy rapidly. 5s might get you to 50 yards, but even that's iffy. 4s would have the energy at 50 and maybe 60, but pattern density falls off way before that. That's my peeve with theses shells. Hugely irresponsible marketing. Every Joe Schmoe is going to think they can be wacking turkeys at 50, 60, and 70 yards. A lot of birds are going to get wounded. If you want to kill turkeys at 60 yards, spend some money and start handloading TSS, or buy a rifle.

I agree that 1 or 2 #6's will not have enough energy but if you hit the head with 10 or 12 of them the bird is going down right now. THese shells shoot so tight that that many pellets is easilly obtainable at those distances.

No, it won't, and no it's not. Do some penetration testing, instead of just reading what's on the box. Punching holes in paper, and killing turkeys are two different things. Lead 6s are lead 6s, any way you slice it. And they lack the energy, period. 1 hit, or 40. You're going to have wounded birds. Have you even patterned them at 60 yards, or are you just guessing, based at patterns from 40 yards. How many pellets do you consistently get from your 3 inch 6s in a 10 inch circle at 60 yards?

Lead is too soft and deforms and loses energy at that distance. Each individual pellet has to have enough energy to break a turkey's skull in order to kill at any given distance. Lead 6's started at 1400 fps or less will not retain enough energy to break a turkey's skull at 60 yds. Doesn't matter if you hit them with 100 pellets. 4's probably will but even they are not 100% reliable if you could even get the pattern density to shoot them.

Hevi-shot and TSS are denser and therefore retain a lot more energy. If you want to kill turkeys at 60 yds then you better be shooting one of these loads. Lead just won't do it. Sure you may get lucky one time but you won't do it consistently.

Hevi shot is even a stretch at 60 but TSS is not.

Lee

I wouldn't attempt a 60 yard shot with lead #6's. The individual pellet energy just isn't there. I have killed gobblers at 50 yards with plated lead #5's a couple of times. Frankly I misjudged the range or that wouldn't have happened because I wouldn't have taken the shots had I realized the true distance. Hevi13 hits them a lot harder and kills better beyond 40 yards.

I will be running them through my Winchester 1300 as soon as I can get my hands on them to see what pattern density I can get. For year's I have been running Nitro's through this shotgun with great patterns out to 40 paces.

IMO, the thrill in turkey hunting is the calling them in close, not taking them at long distance. I'm looking for consistent patterns.

I think Randy Wakeman gave a good and unbiased review of the LB shells. Take home message; a lead #6 (or 5 etc) will always be a lead #6.

http://randywakeman.com/TheVerdicton...urkeyLoads.htm

Wow, didn't start this thread to get into a controversy. Lets look at this. First is that these shells are replacing their Supreme elite which was one heck of a shell but components were getting to expensive to produce them. Now they have the XR . It is a copper coated shell. Other than that it still retains the same weight as a regular coated lead shell. It does have the sleeve to keep the shoot together longer but the basic law of ballistics (weight in motion will stay in motion) means it has the same weight loss as a regular coated lead shell. I think Winchester did a good job developing this shell but touting it as a 60 yard killing hell is wrong. I don't believe any shell except a rifle has that kind of consistent energy at that range to take birds.

Winchester is getting 1.5" of penetration at 60yds with the #5's in gelatin which is enough to kill a bird with a couple pellets. I didn't see a test for #6's. The point is that this shot won't deform and lose energy like most lead shot because of the poured in buffering. Yes it will still lose energy but a round pellet retains more energy that one that is flattened.

I'd rather have big enough pellets to break legs and wings at 40 than pattern density to get it done on paper at 60. Not a fan of 6's for even late season pheasants.

Not because I body shoot turkeys but because [bleep] happens.

Yeah, those running and flying away shots can be tough sometimes.

Breaking bones, and penetrating gelatin are two completely different things. The lead flattens when it hits the target, reducing penetration. It might be round in the air, when it makes impact, it flattens. Low energy, and flattening leading to hindered penetration and less ability to break bones. Those two factors added together isn't what adds up to consistent reliable kills on the real thing. Ever think maybe, just maybe, winchester adds a little fluff to their tests to make their product look better than the competiion? like I said, test it yourself. Put up your 60 yard pattern pictures and your penetration tests for all of us to see, if you're going to claim you have no problem taking 60 yard shots.

You sir are 100% correct. Just throw a fresh turkey skin over the jello and see what happens.

Speaking of pheasants.
One place I hunt requires steel. I use #2's. With lead its #4's and with both, I hit them again on the way down. A extra shell is a lot cheaper than a spur in my dogs eye.

On turkeys, I shoot 1 shot per year. I think I'll stick to Hevi shot or TSS

Lead 6s actually do have plenty of penetration energy to kill at 60yds, but they lack pattern density. These new shells pattern well, but I've yet to see a pattern shot with them that made them much more than a 50yd load(speaking in terms of 100 hits in a 10" circle). That said, 50yard kill counts with lead are definitely something to be happy about.

As far as deformation of lead shot on target...While it seems it would be the case, it's actually not when it comes to hard, magnum grade plated shot. I've tested many different shot types as far as penetration is concerned and have always noted that plated mag grade shot does not deform a notable amount unless shot into something such as steel. Even when shot into wood, the recovered pellets show very little deformation. That said, they do deform at initial set-back when not buffered properly. The keys to good long range lead loads are hard shot, proper buffer, proper speed, good wads, and a good choke/bbl combo.

I've taken many toms cleanly at 50+ yards with lead 6s, but that was with well tested combos. It's much harder to develop lead shells that provide the proper pattern density at longer ranges than it is with the many different HTL shot types available.

I use hevi 7.5 loads more than any others, which have less penetration energy than lead 6s. What they lack in penetration energy, they make up in pattern density(IE patterns of 130-170 hits in a 10" circle at 60yds). I know for a fact that those small 7.5s will penetrate the skull of a tom past 60yds, it's been proven time after time.

Folks really need to get energy out of their mind sets when it comes to "turkey" loads. Focus on pattern density plain and simple. Find the loads your rig likes, find the distance you can consistently place 100 hits in the 10" circle, set that as your MER(Maximum Effective Range), and go kill turkeys.

Have a good one,

loder

Excellent post and correlates exactly with my experiences as well with lead and hs.

Lead 6s have plenty of penetration energy at 60 yards? Really? That's a new one. Do you have any idea why those HTL 7.5s penetrate so well? Comparing their penetration at 60 yards to lead 6's is laughable.

Well, the UPS guy just dropped off a box of the 3" 5's that I had on back order. The snow is starting to melt here so maybe I can give them a try soon and see what they will do.

Let us know what you think of them. This discussion is getting lively.

Hopefully will shoot this weekend. Whenever I do, I'll post my results.

Here is a picture of a target from my son's youth model Browning BPS with a Carlsons tube and #7 Federal mag shok heavyweight. Target was shot at 50 yards.

He took a nice 23 lb tom with 1.5" spurs at 45 yards with it last year. That was his longest shot at a turkey. Dropped him in his tracks.

Actually lead 6's have more kinetic energy than hevi (12g/cc) 7.5's. I still don't think I'd recommend shooting either one at a turkey at 60 yards.
If you've got your heart set on shooting one that far , you really need a minimum of either lead #4, hevi #5, federal heavyweight # 7, or TSS #9.

I like TSS 9's.

That's exactly my point. Even with less kinetic energy, the 7s would still penetrate better. But shooting at a turkey at 60 yards with any lead shell, and most hevi shot shells is asking for trouble. The federal heavyweight shells are a whole new animal, and TSS raises that bar through the roof! Still though, shooting at turkeys at 60 yards with a shotgun is a risky proposition.

It's a lot more fun to talk about how close you can get them anyway

Amen to that!

What is TSS and who makes them? Is the heavy Shot the one by Remington?
Thanks

Actually the lead 6 penetrates better than the hevi 7.5, borden811. I've tested them both in wet phone books. I'll post the calcs later to show the penetration energy if that will help.

Hevi 7.5s do indeed have ample kill/penetration energy at ranges past 60yds, but one must have the pattern density to ensure hits to the CNS. My 3.5" Hevi 7.5 1200fps handloads give a pattern density of 130-170 hits in a 10" circle at 60yds depending on the gun/choke used, which allows for multiple CNS strikes at that range as well as longer ranges. I call 60 the max for a buffer due to conditions or misjudged range estimate. We've tested these loads on toms at 65yds multiple times with 100% success. On one tom that was shot at 65 facing away, we did a thorough autopsy to check penetration. Not only did the pellets riddle the CNS, the pattern was dispersed enough to take in the body. Those pellets that impacted the body, penetrated the feathers, skin, meat, ribs, and fully penetrated the vital organs as well. I also thoroughly examined two toms that were shot low neck/upper body at 35yds with the same loads and the pellets fully penetrated the body. Yes, in one side and either against the off skin or exited the off side in the center mass of adult 22-24lb toms!

Another very interesting penetration example was that of a youth load I developed for my Nephew to take his first tom with. He was very recoil shy at the time, so I developed a 12ga 7/8oz NP lead #7 load at a mere 1100fps that gave kill counts to 35yds on paper from a 25" bbl 870 with JH665 choke. Despite many practice sessions with the boy, Tom fever took over at the moment of truth and he placed the load center mass of a large tom at 25 yards. No pellets hit the CNS, it was purely a body shot. Those NP 7s at a mere 1100fps completely penetrated the large tom's body, broke large bones, riddled his vital organs, and put him down for the count. Amazing that light weight lead 7s at low MV did so well:


Back to my main point...Find a turkey load you like, find the MER(Maximum Effective Range = 100/10), and go kill turkeys. It really is as simple as that. I spend thousands of $ developing handloads with various types of shot, do penetration testing, spend countless hours patterning various combos, etc., and it always comes back to that simple line of advice for me.

Have a good one,

loder

I fully agree with you call them in closer or past the shot. 70 yards is rifle shooting distant , not shotgun.

I think some of you are smoking some good stuff. Years back Winchester put out a report, I believe in conjunction with Tom Roster involving what was necessary for a lethal turkey killing load. Roughly it takes 2 ft/lbs of energy to reliably break a turkeys skull vertebrae. Lead 6s, leaving the gun at 1200 fps drop below that at 35 yards. And you're trying to tell me they work great at 60 yards? Wet paper is far from flesh and bone. That is info that Winchester themselves released. And now they, along with a couple of you are trying to tell me that their new load is great for killing turkeys at 60 yards? Come on people. lead 5s launched at 1200fps drop below 2ft/lbs at 45 yards. Lead 4s at 1200 make it to 60, barely. But Pattern density is beyond useless at that point. It's not simply a matter of having enough pellets on target. Even pellet distribution/pattern density is a large part of it, but the pellets need to have enough energy to do the job when they get there. 60 yards ain't where it's at!

LOL

I never said lead 6s work great at 60yds, I said they have more than enough penetration energy. The problem with lead, as I've mentioned multiple times, is pattern density.

Here's what KPY says for penetration of various shots in some loads I run. That is ballistics gel penetration at 60 yards when started at the stated MVs:
Hevi 7.5 @ 1220 0.95"
Pb 6 @ 1300 1.20"
TSS 9 @ 1080 1.58"
HW 7 @ 1100 1.75"

There is not a Tom on this earth that can take a 100+ pattern of Hevi 7.5 at 60 yards.

We'll just have to agree to disagree

loder

The farthest I'll take my 3" Magnum blend is 45 yards under the best conditions. It's much more fun to get them in close than to try sniping with scatter guns. That is truly the turkey hunting sport and challenge as I see it.

Turkey head is a small target past 35 yards , 60 and 70 yards it ain't much bigger than a piss ant at five ft . Even if the load has the energy , just to much room for error at the 60 and 70 yards shots to make it worth taking the shot. I would be willing to bet , for every Turkey killed at 60 and 70 yards , 10 or more are crippled and lost .

Well, I just got my American Rifleman magazine and in the Winchester Ad the guys claim that they killed a bird at 66 yards with the new shot. To me this is plain B.S. The guys are lousey hunters if they have to take a bird at that range and shame on Winchester for touting their success. I can see a lot of crippled birds left to rot in the woods by them encouraging hunters to take these kind of shots.

Half the fun is getting them close....the other half is eating them...

Must be some good stuff. Mark and Terry Drury killed one at 66 yards. Bird had 12 holes in his head and neck. This is according to the ad in Mack's Prairie Wings catalog. Foolish to shoot at a bird at 66 yards IMO. Even more foolish to include it in ad.

he same ad was in the American Rifleman. The Drury's must be lousey hunter if they have to take a bird at that range. I think most respectable Turkey hunters would pass on one that far out. I always thought it was the challenge of the hunt working them in close as any good Turkey hunter would, not wacking them at such an extreme range. I know a guy who shoots them out of his truck, he's going to love this shell

When I was younger and before I read that lead 6s lacked penetration past 35 yards I killed more than a couple at 50-55 with the 3 1/2 #6. Never lost one, but like to get them to 40 now because I figure I would likely lose one from a pattern density issue. A turkey that gets several #6 lead pellets in the head at 50 yards is dead but if you only get a couple on its head your asking for trouble. I got some 3 inch 4s in the long beard load and will see what they do.

I just picked up the last box of #6's that Cabelas in Owatonna MN. I'll try to head out tomorrow to see what they will do.

Keep us posted! I picked up the last two boxes of 6's at Bass Pro here in PA. I was after 5's but they didn;t have any. Figured the 6's would do for testing porposes. Ive got a Benelli SBEII and a Browning Gold to feed them to. If it ever gets warm enough here, I'll post up my results. The next ten days look to be below freezing.

Much more to come later. But as of now. Not impressed.

That's the first time I've heard anyone shoot them and not like them. Over on old gobbler there must be 40 posts of pattern pictures, from every gun and choke imaginable. I haven't seen a pattern yet that wouldn't absolutely hammer a gobbler at 40.

Don't get me wrong. These shells would hammer a bird at 40!!!!!
But we are going to have idiots try 60 yard shots and we are going to have a lot of coyote bait.
Like I said, I have more testing to do with 2 different guns. Then I'll post up, on guns, tubes, at actual ranges.

Turkey hunting is by far my favorite sport. It's like poor man elk hunting. With the calling and gobbling its a fall elk hunt on a smaller scale.

I think Wednesday, I'll be able to get out and do a good test. I only fired 1 round today. After seeing that 1 round and knowing that I only get 1 round a year. I'm not impressed.

Borden, send or post a link to oldgobbler. I looked thru there and must have been looking at the wrong spot.

For reference here's what my 2 guns and chokes will do at 40 with Hevi-Shot

Let me get you a link. There are guys getting 200-220 with the longbeard 5s, and 250-300 with the 6s. My benelli will shoot the hevi 6s in the 250s, and the 7s over 300. I'm hoping for good performance from the longbeards.

Here's a link to the pattern picture section. First page has 40 or so different longbeard threads.

http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/board,105.0.html

I am hearing good things about how these shells pattern and that is great. But I will add my voice to the side that is telling you that a lead 6 is still a lead 6. No magic resin or wadding is going to change it's penetrating power at 60 yards. I would not fire at a turkey 60 yards away with lead 6's no matter how good my patterns were. And I would strongly urge you to follow suit or you are going to cripple and lose birds. I don't care what somebodies uncles third cousin did once back in 1978. Lead 6's even if you could maintain a good pattern to 60 yards (which I seriously doubt) are just not consistent 60 yards killers.

If you want to take 60 yard shots then my advice would be to start hand loading TSS shot.

Thanks for the link Borden.
From what I'm reading over there, there very few getting over 200 in 10". And only one that is doing it with 3"
They seam to like a little tighter choke. Indian Creek looks to be a favorite.
I have yet to see any 60 yard patterns that I would consider a consistant killer.
Tomorrow is a no go for the range. 30 mph winds and -40 windchill.

I'm sure I could play the tube game but life is to short to do that again. And it helps that I have enough Hevi to last me to damn near 60. But I like to shoot so for $18 a box I figured I'd give them a fair test.

That's exactly what I said a few posts up. Read through the thread. Most agree, but a few seem to think 6s will work just dandy at 50 and 60 yards. I mean hey, it says so right on the box, it has to be true!

I'd be worried about trying to hit one with that tennis ball sized pattern they have at 20 yards.

They don't shoot any tighter at 20 than any other load out of my turkey chokes.

I will not shoot at 20. I set my deks at 35 and enjoy the show until its hammer time.

Well guys and gals, I just tried some of the 5's in a 930 Mossberg with a Kicks 665 choke and a Beretta Pintail with a Kicks 670 choke and was not impressed with the results. The pattern was scattered at 40 yards with both guns. I then tried the Winchester supreme elite in 5's with both guns with fantastic results. I will try more testing with them but this year I'm staying with the elites as long as I have some.

Got a pattern master code black for my a400 today and shot some 3.5 inch 6's in the longbeard through it. At 40 yards the pattern is pretty much ridiculous. Well over 200 in the 10. The majority of the core of the pattern is less than 8 inches. Not sure if I like that.

Choke/gun shoots regular win. Supreme 5's, xtended range 5's and fed. turkey thug 5's really well to but I didn't do any counting.

Was surprised how well it did with federal flight control 4's too.

Tell that to my uncle who killed a Tom at 61 yards with a Full choke barreled, Remington M870, and Remington 2 3/4" Nitro Mag #4's.

I have no doubt he patterened at that range. The bird's head/neck was wrecked. I watched it happen.

I don't take those shots, I like em in close, the closer the better as far as I'm concerned.

I'm guessing that a #4, 2 3/4" pattern doesn't look too good on paper at 61 yards. I'm sure you can kill one at that range if a pellet or two finds the right spot, but your going to injure some birds doing that. I wouldn't reccomend shooting #4, 2 3/4" shells at turkeys at that range.

Borden is right, if you want to feel confident at 60 yards, then you need to do some experimenting with chokes, ammo, and probably need to be hand loading some TSS.

Maybe you or your uncle should invest in a rangefinder? I'd love to see a picture of the pattern of 4s that will "wreck" a turkey head and neck at 60 yards. From ANY choke and shell combo, let alone 2 3\4 nitro mags.

He knew how far it was. He won't be buying a rangefinder anytime soon. He hunts with a 60's model 870, non-magnum, full choke barrel. That old dude's been hunting turkey's for about 45 years. I can count on one hand how many years he's been without a bird.

Before we started poking things with HS and the like, 10 pellets in a head/neck target were enough to call it a killing shot, and apparently.... it is.

I won't shoot one past 45 on purpose. I'd much rather shoot them at 15. I like to call em in and play with em when I can.

So, was it "wrecked" or did he slip a lucky pellet in the right place? I could kill one at 80 too, if I get lucky one time. Doesn't mean it's not a terrible idea. How many has he shot at, at extended range, and not gone home with?

It doesn't really matter. You have your mind made up it can't be done.

No way to tell how many pellets were in it. The head, neck, and back of the turkey had plenty of holes. It 2002, the shot was across a pasture, from under an oak we were both sitting against, on a partly cloudy Thursday afternoon, light breeze, about 64 deg. F, 8mph WSW wind.

"How many has he shot at, at extended range, and not gone home with?"

I have no idea. He's usually pretty good about getting them close.

This must have been what the discussions were like when hunters were transitioning from black powder to smokeless.

Little late getting back to this, but here is 40 yards with #5 longbeard xr's out of my T/C Encore.

197 in 10" circle.