|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,605
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,605 |
i keep telling you Ed that this is one of the more interesting threads on the site cause we can kinda follow the evolution of the project(s) dont have much to add to it but i read everytime you update it....
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Another use for 58cal Minie Bullets would be to setup a 24ga FH. Minie bullets cheap to cast and buy. We use the .575-.577" in our 12ga sabot, and the .585-.587 in my 585HE. And you could use 577 NE bullets also. For those in shotgun only areas there is a way. You can get 2.5" Magtech brass cases, but also you can set up a 3" chamber and use 577NE 3" brass. Grafs shows some under 4 bucks each. Cheaper than getting them made. And if you set up chamber with shotgun style forcing cone you could shoot shorter Magtech as well as plastic cases. Reason to use 577 cases, they are stronger solid head, last forever, and can be run higher pressures and still last forever. You can get barrels, 58cal at Green Mtn I think. .We got some also. AND the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here, more will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14 that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks, 1 to 20 twist. And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly Minie bullet guns, and bunch smoothbore blanks...Pictures soon. Here are couple pictures of a 585HE gun a guy is doing with nice walnut stock. Gun has extra bedding lug and accra-glassed. It is an Enfield and has single stack magazine.
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 539
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 539 |
Ed you can get 577 3" Jamison from Kebco for $3.25 shipped also. $65 for 20
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Thanks Mike- we got couple guys that will be needing them.Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a Mossy 390 frame, .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size. Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone, so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE 3" brass. Really make a hairy 24ga using the 440gr to 540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE. And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and slug choices in the .585 size, easy to find, than any other caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and cheaper if you cast your own. Here is picture .585" barrels from McGowen, with other barrels. Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks. Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks... In back some of the cases and die sets. Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with the easy to grip, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels, 1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper to .980 inch at the muzzle. Setting up 4 more on Enfields through the winter. Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Some guys in 12ga like to use the Magtech brass cases but the cases being brass the sides are thinner than plastic, and that makes loose fit in 12ga chambers. And case expand a lot and are harder to resize, But I found that .750 hollowbase 10ga slug fits those cases and still chambers ok. Not a sloppy fit. So If you have a 12ga smooth barrel with full length backbore job, of .850" bore or bigger you could use the Magtech brass and ,850" size 10ga hollowbase slugs. Brett in MN used the a BPI AQ slugs in his full length backbored 12ga and got fair accuracy as he said the wads under slugs expanded a lot for a decent fit. The 10ga slug shown in the 2.5 inch Magtech is 800 gr, and .850" diameter. These cases will take magnum pressure so you can get good speed, for what this short case can hold. It is too bad they don't make 3" and 3.5" versions. These 2.5" cases are easier to find and much less than others, so if needing brass ones you can rig up guns to work with them. To build a new barreled gun in actual 12ga size, IE .729" bore, you'd make chamber to minimum specs so cases don't over expand. In the picture are 2 10ga slugs on right, like in the case, and 2 12ga jacketed slugs and one 12ga lead slug left.ED Here is the ytube URL again for our guy shooting 585HE in his NEF----By mid summer we plan on a pickup truck load of more 585HE cases coming in. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc] www.youtube
Last edited by hubel458; 02/22/14.
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 971
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 971 |
Ed, Are you selling these guns: If yes, could you send me a PM or provide details on this forum? I am interested in a 585HE, probably open /iron (maybe peep) sites and definitely nothing fancy. The Hogue is clean simple stock that works. I am on a short leash but these big 58's look hard to beat in terms of bang for the buck.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,605
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,605 |
ild be interested in knowing the rough cost to convert a M1917/P14 aswell
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
The Enfield pictured above is gone, and BBK will be pending a guy raising funds.
I get $750 for 100 cases, die set, and barrel, including shipping.
I have couple three more enfields getting done and I sent you two guys PMs with particulars.Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Here is good simple system with big hollowbase slugs to stop the skirts from deforming, or wads getting pushed into the hollow base. I found that dense dow foam works good, I was using glue gun, but the dense foam is easier, cut plugs out of foam sheet and force into the base. Make it a tight fit, use spot of glue inside, glue that is for foam.... Trim off the foam flush..In picture is 10 ga 900gr slug with foam pressed into the base.. How we get good 24ga plastic seals with protusion on top that fits up inside 58cal Minie base, same bore as 24ga and our 585HE. I get the 24ga seal by cutting apart the BPI 24ga Brush wad, getting two seals out of each.Works great in plastic case giving a shorter column than other seals and wads, so we can get in enough of our 4759 for good speed. The 24ga idea is getting nicer all the time with the variety of cheap 58cal slugs, and good 3" brass cases, drawn cases, we didn't have to wait to get made. And all kind of guns we can use, bolt 395 Mossbergs, single shots of all kinds, Autos,, pumps. bolt action Savage, even 1887 Win and Greener MKIII, bolt action JC Higgins. . Here is picture Khan auto we setting up 24ga FH, it is 3.5" model, has a 12ga barrel to change with. Being 3.5" it feeds/ejects through lengthened port 3" brass 24ga cases we made from 577NE brass. We rework back of the bolt for slightly longer stroke.Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Here is picture of 24ga cases, loads; and some slugs and seals. Brass cases are 3", plastic cases are 2.5". Brass 3" can be loaded to match 577NE power. Here is of 24ga in an 87 Win, just test gun of mine. Uses same barrels as our 585HE, This one has slow twist for Minie bullets.Our guys have got supply of regular and slow twist barrels. Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia. It is owned by the poster, 'tankhunter' on the AR forums. Built by his smith who has a reamer. Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels, Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Finally got back to forums.Been busy with 24ga FH and 585HE and getting 585 cases made, as many as possible... We are now working a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same bore barrels. Main use difference, 24ga FH easy setup in break actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks. Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds 458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that was pulled out and they wouldn't stay in tight. Sabot was a loose fit in 20ga, made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib, fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. Fits real tight to give good resistance for good ignition. Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal ML. With 250 gr bullet in 585 will go about mach 4. Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankunter with his Ruger #1. If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Here is picture of 100 cases loaded with CEB solid nose bullets and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat or wide hollowpoint. . Here is picture of triball loads that fellows like for deer and hogs, and just general tear em up fun, with using BPGS seal to improve sealing under what are heavier loads. The balls are .600" and 315gr. each. The wadcup is a TUPRW123 that Precision sells. I need a bunch of empty 3.5" 20ga plastic cases. Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like, usually set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil, to our 585HE the strongest yet. The 577NE is an offshoot of 24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the 577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder, then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3" and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all over the British Empire, by the tens of millions. Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a 24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And stamp the caseheads 24 ga. For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga. The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made. We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much, with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem. Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH, break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case. Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size. So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power. .Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc. Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,237
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,237 |
Ignorance is not confined to uneducated people.
WHO IS JOHN GALT? LIBERTY!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Guys asking about using 585 CEB bullet in our 12ga super sabot. Here is picture, We just took off the bottom band and couple middle bands on the CEB and it fit perfect in our 12ga sabot, which uses .575" slugs. Hollowpoint one pictured 700gr in the sabot loaded in brass case. Can be used in plastic case with a special made hollowed out long roll crimper. Getting some more interest in our 585HE. An application for our 585 HE is for guys with old military 14.5mm PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5 cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times. And a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel could get 650gr spitzer bullet to about same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using 3 times as much powder. About 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800. Great possibilities for fun shooting. For tactical use in a place where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where steel cases are scarce. 100 of our cases do over 2000 reloads. I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns, the actions once sporterized are one of the longest for long cases. . Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like Ruger 77 handle, the one on the right . Something even a novice like me can do..... A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr ones in our 24ga FH. That hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr to 700gr depending on how much we cut off the back.. The 24ga FH brass case is nice complement to our 585HE, for shotgun only deer hunters that want a .585" caliber, and easy to find big bore bullets.... Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil but a big bang and satisfaction. A 250 gr bullet would go about mach 4 with a top load.. Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long. It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980". we got a bunch of them and so does McGowen. Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH. It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as hard as copper jacketed softs pivtured. These in .575'' size would work in our 12ga sabot.. But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they can be fairly soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE. Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out. Guys experimenting with multiple ball loads in 12ga wadcups, here is a way to keep them together group wise.Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt plus some weght, Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in a 12ga dangerous game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells it . There is couple 585 videos on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site; Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia.It was set up for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings.. https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videosHere is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the style of a CZ stock and metal will be finished with a Gun Kote finish. Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs. Enfield in back, you can see it is longer. And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is just finishing up 585 Ruger #1...And the 24hr Campfire forum has over a million views of this thread...ED
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647 |
The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by target rounds like the necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game, necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but the following one was way before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets. One of first modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum, was first mentioned in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder. They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe fit 98 Mauser bolt. Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds 180gr under a 750gr'. We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter, and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but maybe back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case, by shortening the neck, if they could have found couple barrels full. But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies, multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions, which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular, long bolt action, or falling blocks, break actions, etc, a 585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings, and moderate loads, last forever.. For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns, (not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough. To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G, wildcatted to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help. Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed
Ed Hubel
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,605
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,605 |
since no one has commented in awhile, I'll say Ed I'm still as fascinated with your experiments and work as i was when you first started this thread.....very cool stuff....
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
|
|
|
|
588 members (1lessdog, 12344mag, 10Glocks, 17CalFan, 10ring1, 1beaver_shooter, 62 invisible),
2,430
guests, and
1,340
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,194,354
Posts18,527,058
Members74,031
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|