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Originally Posted by KevinGibson
Originally Posted by JCMCUBIC
I've been shooting rats when I bushhog with .357 shot capsules loaded with #8 shot. It often takes 2 shots for each rat if they are big ones...and often there will be more than one rat. I've used a short double 12 gauge and a single shot 20 gauge before but it takes to long to get them in action from a tractor and they are a bit of overkill. You can call me Bubba cause I'm dying to try a Governor for this... grin


Before you spend a lot of money for a better shot revolver, try loading your own shot cartridges with #12 shot. The problem isn't the shot size, it's the number of shot on target. With 7.5-8 shot, I've always had to shoot a snake 2 or 3 times. With #12 shot, rarely do you have to pull the trigger twice.

The Governor solves the problem by just putting more shot on the target, but you can get that without going to that goofy revolver.



Well....nope.... grin I rolled my own using several different shot sizes (only up to #9) and for this use, the #8 is better than #9 (and there isn't much size difference there)...I don't think #12 would improve it. There is a big difference between shredding a snake at 2 steps and hitting a running rat (gopher) at 5,6,7 steps in thick grass, only shooting to the side that has already been cut, the high stuff is too hard to hit in and eventually they will run out of it. The heavier shot carries better and hits harder at distance...and distance is still pretty short. It spreads as the distance increases. I've played with my powder charges and settled on 1/2 of what I use for a 158 grain load in the .357...any faster and it seems like the shot spreads more.

I agree with your premise, faster, lighter, more on target...when it's close and it's a snake. For a rat in thick grass a little further out the extra weight helps....and a .410 would put more on target.

GB1

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Originally Posted by FreeMe
Originally Posted by EthanEdwards
Originally Posted by FreeMe
Originally Posted by EthanEdwards
What is continuously amazing is that there is so much resistance to this in certain circles. IMO, post your reasoning as to why .410 handguns are not good for what you think they're not good for and let folks make their own choices.


I posted several links with some good information. My reasoning is an accumulation of the info from those and other sources. You can read the same stuff - and if you come to a different conclusion, there is probably nothing I can say to change your mind.

It's funny that those "certain circles" you vaguely mention are full of people who are pretty accomplished and knowledgeable shooters and defense instructors. Forty years ago, I might have agreed that the body of knowledge is limited and suspect - but not now.
Honestly, I haven't looked at the links because I read everything there was to read on this subject several years back. That is not to be disrespectful of what they're saying. I've read a bit of the box o' truth's stuff on .410's and know that particular site doesn't favor them. You can generate "evidence" to support the other side too. Also there are other experienced shooters who like the concept. I'm probably the single most experienced shooter here when it comes to this concept. Anybody who doesn't believe it can do a search or simply disbelieve it. My take on the whole thing is this:

Doesn't matter about the concept, the basic Judge (I can't speak to every single variant) isn't reliable so the concept doesn't matter. It may be the design but my opinion is that it's the execution. Whatever it is, it is unreliable.

As to the Governor, it is reliable but my experience with it isn't as great as the Judge. But now we can get to the concept. The 45 part of the equation is fine and is surprisingly more accurate than one would expect given the 410 chambers. It is fine at typical self defense ranges. The 410 side is more iffy. With specialty loads designed for 410 handguns specifically, the guns pattern adequately at self defense ranges. With standard 410 loads, the individual load must be judged on its own merit. Collectively, the standard loads are not impressive at all.

I'll take real-world results over lab ones any day. That doesn't mean I totally discount lab results, it means that I think real world ones are in the main, more representative. IIRC there are a couple of instances of self-defense on record with these guns. I'll leave that to others to check on though. If you can believe the bit about the hog's head, I've been around enough hogs to know that a hog's head is tougher and more resistant to penetration than a human's is, unless you're talking a liberal. So anything that penetrates a hog head will definitely penetrate a human skull. To me this trumps talk of velocity and chronographs, etc.

The Judge isn't a worthy choice for anything much. The Governor is fine if you like the concept.


Okay - I'll play...

I don't like to rely on "lab tests" either. That's why I don't put a lot of stock into gelatin penetration demonstrations - which may or may not be calibrated, btw.

I haven't killed any people with a gun, or even tried to - but I've killed a lot of animals. Done quite a bit of it with the .410. Done even more with rifles and handguns of various calibers - including .22lr.

I look at the damage done with each and compare. The .410 has what it takes to kill small animals, but not much more. It just doesn't deliver the payload that other rounds do. Sure - at arms length or a little more, it's probably going to be enough (edit: ...for home defense). But that is too limiting for such use, IMO. And for what? All of the arguments that I see for a shot pistol as home defense just don't hold up.

Conversely - you can see that most of the fighting handgun rounds and all of the rifle rounds have an excess of what it takes to kill small animals (rabbits and such) or better.

You can kill just about anything you might find in a barnyard with a shot to the head with a .22. I watch the mobile butcher do it every year. So how do head shots on pigs prove anything in regards to defense? You gonna rely on getting a head shot as your only option?

When the vast majority of knowledgeable shooters are telling you something about a gun concept, it's probably best to listen. It's not like we're discussing a nebulous thing like the beginning of the universe.
You make some great points a lot of which I agree with. On the head shot thing it's not so much that you're relying on a head shot as it is if you get one it has to make it through a mass of bone. Even if you have to shoot through the rib cage there are gaps and if you have multiple projectiles even if it deflects there are others that don't hit bone. But it's not likely to deflect since it made through a skull it should make it through a rib.

Another point, Gelatin usually smacks of somebody taking the time to be pretty scientific.

But lastly, people can make their own decisions. Lots of these folks are using the 410 to make up for their own lack of marksmanship or confidence in their marksmanship. I think that's a bad mistake. Pretty hard to convince some of them.

I carry the Governor a lot because I consider it useful on the farm. It will have at least the first load as a 45 Colt if people defense is the main concern. In that guise, it's the same thing as a Mountain Gun in that caliber. If I have to fire twice at a human, the specialty 410 load will do some damage too and a third shot will be 45 Colt again. My normal use is different than other's though, because again, I'm on the farm.

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IMO the Governor patterns better than the Judge, but I haven't done extensive side-by-side comparisons.

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Originally Posted by JCMCUBIC
Originally Posted by KevinGibson
Originally Posted by JCMCUBIC
I've been shooting rats when I bushhog with .357 shot capsules loaded with #8 shot. It often takes 2 shots for each rat if they are big ones...and often there will be more than one rat. I've used a short double 12 gauge and a single shot 20 gauge before but it takes to long to get them in action from a tractor and they are a bit of overkill. You can call me Bubba cause I'm dying to try a Governor for this... grin


Before you spend a lot of money for a better shot revolver, try loading your own shot cartridges with #12 shot. The problem isn't the shot size, it's the number of shot on target. With 7.5-8 shot, I've always had to shoot a snake 2 or 3 times. With #12 shot, rarely do you have to pull the trigger twice.

The Governor solves the problem by just putting more shot on the target, but you can get that without going to that goofy revolver.



Well....nope.... grin I rolled my own using several different shot sizes (only up to #9) and for this use, the #8 is better than #9 (and there isn't much size difference there)...I don't think #12 would improve it. There is a big difference between shredding a snake at 2 steps and hitting a running rat (gopher) at 5,6,7 steps in thick grass, only shooting to the side that has already been cut, the high stuff is too hard to hit in and eventually they will run out of it. The heavier shot carries better and hits harder at distance...and distance is still pretty short. It spreads as the distance increases. I've played with my powder charges and settled on 1/2 of what I use for a 158 grain load in the .357...any faster and it seems like the shot spreads more.

I agree with your premise, faster, lighter, more on target...when it's close and it's a snake. For a rat in thick grass a little further out the extra weight helps....and a .410 would put more on target.
With my shot loads, I never had anything buy snakes in mind.

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All kidding aside, my take on the shotvolvers is that some people automatically think of shotguns as fearsome defensive weapons, so the "pocket shotgun" seems real appealing. Certainly it's been a marketing hit for Taurus; at my local range I am always surprised at how many empty .410 shells are found laying around the pistol ranges.

They do seem to excel as snake killers. Maybe so-so for small pests like rodents. And probably not satisfactory as defensive revolvers - other than a bad guy who sees it may flee in terror smirk

Snake killing is a nice to have, but not essential feature. You can always just load a shot cartridge in a .357 or .44 revolver, and at ten feet, you're at a safe distance, and the snake is hamburger. A normal DA revolver I suspect will be a lot easier to fire fast, without that humongous cylinder turning, if the snake brings a gun of his own.

I have a few .45 ACP shot cartridges. One of these days I need to see if they can cycle the action satisfactorily. Maybe have the shot cartridge in the chamber, and a mag full of conventional ammo. That too might be a versatile setup.

There are so many of the Judges and Guvners sold that surely they've been used defensively in a few cases, so it would be interesting to learn if they actually do stop bad guys effectively. I hope they do for the sake of their owners, but I still don't particularly want one smile



"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."

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Originally Posted by EthanEdwards
Originally Posted by Boococky
Originally Posted by KevinGibson

Make sense?


Yeah, actually makes perfect sense.....never thought about weighing the shot and loading it like a bullet

Thanks
The new avatar rocks, amigo.


Thanks! I kinda like it too grin


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I learned all I need to know regarding the usefulness of the concept with a 10" Contender barrel.

Would probably work pretty decent for JCCUBIC's running rat scenario, depending on the range.

Other than that, they suck. Nothing kills a snake more better than a bunch of lead shot. But at the same time, every snake I've shot died pretty [bleep]' dead from a single bullet.


Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by deflave
I learned all I need to know regarding the usefulness of the concept with a 10" Contender barrel.

Would probably work pretty decent for JCCUBIC's running rat scenario, depending on the range.

Other than that, they suck. Nothing kills a snake more better than a bunch of lead shot. But at the same time, every snake I've shot died pretty [bleep]' dead from a single bullet.


Travis
I couldn't shoot a snake due to its location last year, so I speared it. I've got a big Harbor Freight survival knife. It ain't no Randall, but is of surprising quality for like $8. I unscrewed the cap on the handle, stuck it in a broomstick and quickly duct-taped it in place, then stabbed the offending serpent.

[Linked Image]

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It would go great with a Governor. Kindly remove that Smith from the photograph. It deserves better.



Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by deflave
It would go great with a Governor. Kindly remove that Smith from the photograph. It deserves better.



Travis


Governor is a Smith so show some respect


I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
-Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted by Boococky
Originally Posted by deflave
It would go great with a Governor. Kindly remove that Smith from the photograph. It deserves better.



Travis


Governor is a Smith so show some respect


Ummm... No. It is a copy of a Tore-Ass and an embarrassment to both the company, and its loyal fans.

What's next? The RAGING 29 etched on the left side of the barrel?


Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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HAHAHAHA

RAGING LADYSMITH



I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
-Thomas Jefferson
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Yeah the knife is funny but it's also useful. YouTube videos say so. smirk

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[Linked Image]

You like this one better?

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Originally Posted by Boococky
HAHAHAHA

RAGING LADYSMITH

Raging Lemonsqueezer.

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Originally Posted by EthanEdwards

You like this one better?


I like that the beauty of the Smith is blocking the Carbon V peasant steel.



Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Travis - you remind me that although I have carried shot loads in handguns from time to time, the only snakes I've killed recently were with a .22 bullet to the head. That's not bragging. Our snakes are slow, and I let 'em be if they aren't pretty close.

Ethan - lots of people think they're being scientific, but aren't. But your farm use makes some sense.


Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.




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I like slow snakes!


Max Prasac

Semper Fidelis

The Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers:
https://youtu.be/zKJbjjPaNUE

Bovine Bullet Test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s
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I like dead snakes (if they're poisonous).

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Originally Posted by FreeMe
Travis - you remind me that although I have carried shot loads in handguns from time to time, the only snakes I've killed recently were with a .22 bullet to the head. That's not bragging. Our snakes are slow, and I let 'em be if they aren't pretty close.

Ethan - lots of people think they're being scientific, but aren't. But your farm use makes some sense.


Yep. They die same as anything else when a bullet hits the brain.

The ones in Texas were slow (not surprising) but the ones up here are fast and aggressive little [bleep]. Probably because they only have a 45 day window to get some chow. grin



Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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