Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors Non-original Pre 64 70s-controversial thread

Why not ask Rick to start a new category: "All original, unmodified, NIB, Winchester M70 Collectors"

Then you purists can rub shoulders with each other without being contaminated by association with the rest of us low life's.

I personally love pre64s to use and hunt with, because they work. I care nothing able safe queens, that are too pristine to take outdoors .

Boys, think about it. It goes on in the Savage collectors forum. Yet the purists don't think the forum is exclusively a place for them to play. Why would anyone think the Winchester Collector forum here would be any different?

Better than even bet the post is really about making a controversial post more than anything else. Its in the tread title, goes on here all the time and gets old after a while.

If not then the OP is going to be an unhappy camper, because obviously we can post about any Winchester we desire. Original or modified, and even more obviously many are interested.

We can argue the merits of original vs modified within the form, but at no time was the forum the exclusive home of unmodified examples, and BalltownBob knew that shortly after he discovered the Winchester Forum. His choice to prefer the unaltered and express same. However, to say that those who think different should be relegated to the custom rifles forum is nothing more than making a controversial post and should be of little interest to those who like all things Winchester.

I like them all, but make a lousy collector(I tried)because I could not resist the impulse to shoot them..and hunt with them.

Mostly because for a factory rifle they generally always worked and shot pretty well, and did not leave the factory unless they did. Their reliability and field worthiness was one of the things that made them great.

As someone posted,they have by now all been around the horn and unless one is already torn up, I won't build on an action or tear a pristine model apart for any reason. Too many other actions out there to be had. But they are all of interest to me, modified or not.

I have seen pictures of Pinnell and Talifson's 375's.....mother nature modified those and they are of far more interest to me than something that has sat in a box for 60 years.

I like the forum just the way it is, I have learned a lot here, I believe I am more of an enthusiast than a collector although I have both types in my collection, my favorite out of all is restocked featherweight 270 I bought on the campfire from tdn and I think my least favorite is an all original unfired pre 64 I bought from the original owner because I can't do anything to it but let it sit in the safe, don't feel like I can mount a scope on it or ever shoot it and it doesn't feel like it's ever had a life or a story to tell

And what is holding you back from being the one to take it to the show?

A Winchester rifle used long and hard for what it was made for and repaired along the way. A Winchester safe queen that never tasted rain or horse sweat, never got broke, never shot enough to get too hot to touch. Which is the real rifleman's rifle?

The sooner you realize it has nothing to do with history, stories or the make believe life of a rifle, and accept that it is all about the money the sooner it will all make sense.

Anyway, the rain finally put a damper on the Turkey and my Cousins wife was home and I got some pics of his Mothers Pre 64. With a critical eye, not as pristine as I thought, but still nice and used little.

Battue, That looks like a very nice one to me! But on another note I have yet to see a pre 64 mod 70 that I could not see some promise in. Stonewall Jackson was a 7th removed uncle, if I could get my hands on his gun I would load er up and shoot hell out of it! I could never make a NIB collector, I guess Im just wired wrong, I am happy for the guys that are able to do so. v best WinPoor

I'd really like to buy and use it since it essentially has been in the cabinet since 87. However, his reason for not wanting to let it go is understandable and he would like to pass it on to a grandson.

The originator of this thread to justify in his mind trashing modified rifles and those who collect them has pointed out that the title of this category is "Winchester Collectors". Collectors come in many differing persuasions, not all are purists who reject any rifle that is not 100% original. This is the only time an objection of this kind has been raised here in the time I have been a member of this forum. Perhaps the originator should try being a little more tolerant of others and their interests.

A part of me certainly understands this type thinking. Winchester made these rifles with the intention that they would be used and hunted with. The thought behind the design, craftmanship and quality of materials was years and years of reliable use.

Another part of me covets the safe queens and maintaining them as such. As I mentioned earlier, I don't view that part as the healthy part.

Question for those who follow the path to Winchester purism: If Edward Ulrich who engraved high end Winchesters did one-actually he did more than a few-at his home after retiring from Winchester would it be considered an original or a bastardization of an original?

If he upgraded an original standard grade rifle-again he did it more than once-at home after retiring from Winchester-is it another bastard child, and if not what grade is it?

These mods while done by a famous Winchester craftsman, and the work was the same as that done in house, were done off premise and on his own time. Heresy, only Winchesters completed in the factory are worthy of mention here. They should be in the Custom forum.

Well�According to some.

Battue - sad to say, such a rifle that you describe would bring less money than if Ulrich had done the work inside the factory.

Purism is one tough gig.

It does bother me that so much that is referred to as, "collectible" is really all about the money.

Which only proves the absurd constraints that some place on originality.

Same guy, same rifle, same chisels, same pattern, same quality, different work location, less value.

Logic defies the reasoning.

Money is the driver. It's not about preserving, history, etc. It's about I'm afraid to lose my investment.

Whether it is Winchesters or cars, the alteration changes the dynamic of the original. Anyone that collects cars doesn't want a chopped/lowered/modified car when he is looking at originals. There are lots of modified/customized cars that are owned and driven by people that like that sort of thing, but the closer to new and higher the condition, the more valuable and desirable the car.

Money is certainly a huge component in the decision to buy or sell and that isn't all bad. To think that someone doesn't like the concept of alteration is short sighted, is no more wrong than the other person that wants or likes modifications by himself or someone else.

I have plenty of Winchesters and though they aren't mint, I still look for the most condition and original finish that I can find because that is what I like. I also shoot them and hunt with them because I don't believe you have to own a nice gun, leave it in the safe and buy a stainless/plastic gun to shoot all your game with...

That'll show you BALLTOWNBOB. Now take your ball and go home.

Sadly money does play a key role in collectability but it isn't the only driver on why and what people collect. I have worked hard to find the pedigree and history of any old rifle I own and I do take them to gun shows to display and share the American history.

I don't really own these old guns, I am merely a steward for the time being until they go to someone else and it is always my hope that the next person will care for and preserve them so they can be enjoyed by other people in years to come...

Change the enthusiast to collector and I would agree. I took a beautifully stocked M70 with a Douglas 25-06 barrel into Briley's (the shotgun house) who also sell new and used rifles and they only offered me $275 for it. But there are a lot of enthusiastic people who want an action to rebarrel.

Kirk - what would be your opinion of the example Battue used - a rifle engraved by Ulrich but after he left full-time employment in the factory? Would you view this an an alteration?

Ulrich engraved is Ulrich engraved regardless of where it was done. I don't think that Michelangelo's work is any less appreciated in the Cathedrals of Milan than the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.

I also believe the guns earlier mentioned that were altered for Jack O'Connor were not violated the way we would consider what a member of the Campfire might do or have done. Celebrity does add a huge component to the question of customization or bastardization.

I had a friend that bought a Marlin 1881 in real nice condition, but he felt that he owned the gun and wanted it to look brand new. He took it to a capable gunsmith and had it totally refinished and in my estimation, ruined the gun. I couldn't stop him, but he took one of a few surviving high condition guns and wrecked it.

I would take a well used 1886 Winchester any day over a Doug Turnbull restoration as I have no use for those kind of guns. People still like them and people still buy them, I just don't have any interest in them...