Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors Non-original Pre 64 70s-controversial thread

Dean Whitaker's book hits the high spots on the 70 while Rule really drilled down on the minutae...George Madis told me personally he had contemplated writing a book on the 70 but did not because he didn't want to lose friends...the 70's biggest issue is the total lack of verifiable factory data on individual rifles...

Several people have made a lot of $ peddling bad guns...even provenance is being faked to seal the deal with a tentative buyer....it's a damn shame that people cannot buy an unfettered specimen of the best production rifle this country has ever turned out without misgivings....

Mr Balltownbob, On a lighter note, non Winchester. What is your favorite cigar? I have several my all time favorite as per flavor is Bauza. very best WinPoor

Very good points.

Many people assume that the guns pictured in the books by George Madis are, by virtue of appearing in his books, completely correct and original. I have found examples where because a rifle was in the book, it was felt (by the seller) to be worth a premium and also, to stand as incontrovertible evidence of the authenticity of the gun.

I won't dispute the fact that the majority of the guns pictured are correct.

I do not think Mr Rule would put a gun up that HE thought was counterfeit. I for one am very happy to have his book. very best winpoor

I've not heard anything to dispute that.

Unfortunately, you guys that haven't heard about Rule's shenanigans don't know a lot about him. After he moved to Hawaii, for example....check around if you know dealers who handled his books that never got books they paid for....Unfortunately for them he filed bankruptcy and they were unsecured creditors....

Oh I know, the above has nothing to do with all the "facts" he set forth in his book....

You guys in the dark need to get out more around the right people....

George Madis' span of knowledge about Winchesters was vast. If you had known George you would have realized his skeptical and inquisitive nature did not accept guns at simple face value...his stories of living in Mexico studying Winchesters were some of my favorites...

Patel Maduro Edge counterfeits...

I got into cigars many,many years ago, Im trying to give the cigs up and go back to a cigar or 3 a day, I for one think the Cubans are very over rated, my airline capt pal used to bring em back from England and we would enjoy, but a big Bauza or Cuba Aliados works every time ! I have a 15 yr old box of Punch Chateau L double maduro that are 4 hr killer cigars. very best WinPoor

Why would you assume I didn't know him?

Are you disputing what I stated - that not all of what is pictured in his books were correct and authentic?

George was a very nice guy. He would have not been good as a physician where part of the job was to break bad news to patients. He was often very reluctant to deliver bad news to someone about their rifle.

You know sir I am trying real hard to be your Winchester Pal, but to come here and run Mr Rule down is making my job very hard, as such Im just going to put you over in the GFU column! very best to all on Mothers Day, This is my first without my wife and guys it sucks! WinPoor

Very sorry about the loss of your wife, sir.

As for Rule you are entitled to your opinion as am I to mine...I think you and I see him from different perspectives...

Because you never came out and said you knew him, perhaps? Why be catty? Is it because you just like to argue and disagree?

I would never dispute anyone who can tell from photos what's right and what isn't...

Absolutely agree about Cubans....good to agree with you on something...

It being Mothers day I am going to go with something my mother pushed me very hard on,'If you cannot say something nice about someone, say nothing at all!' So Mom this one is for you!
very best all and for the Good Lords sake Hug every mother you can as they may not be here next Mothers Day! WinPoor

Bob - I'm sure I didn't know him as well as you (and I'm not being catty or sarcastic). George enjoyed talking about Winchesters and I spent many hours in the evening enjoying conversation and learning from his large knowledge base. He was someone I very much enjoyed.

To clarify, I am not suggesting I could tell from the photos in the books that some rifles were not 100% authentic. Rather, it is came from knowledge from others over the years.

Ah... good, the popcorn is out.

I want to clarify that I think some reader's of the Madis books made the erroneous assumption that all rifles pictured were correct. Many collectors laid out their collections for George to photograph. This does not mean he performed the type evaluation he became known for on each rifle he photographed. And as stated, he was a nice fellow and for those that laid out their collections for him to photograph, I don't think he saw it as his role, or he had the inclination to comment negatively on those pieces he knew or suspected to not be 100% correct.

My beef is with those individuals who have come into possession of one of the rifles pictured and the conclusions they have drawn.

Personally, I am progressively thinking, lower dollar "character" pieces are the way to go. With the ever-growing fakery (including faked documentation), I am progressively more suspicious. There's a lot of good pieces out there and the majority of these are safely tucked away in collections. It's the stuff floating in circulation that carries the highest risk of burning someone. The mindset of, "caveat emptor" becomes more important with each passing day.

Boltman, no cast on you just watching where this goes. just to tired to dive in,