Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles Rocky Raab - reduced loads

Rocky, knowing your penchant for tinkering with reduced loads you might find this interesting. I have used your recipe of Blue Dot for years in my Hornet and K-Hornet with great results. Now have found something maybe even better . I had my K rechambered to Fireball to use the much stronger cases and I guess to get more performance when I need it. But around my house the old reduced loads were a good thing. I found that 12 grains of AA5744 gets me about 2150 with a 40 grains bullet and the noice is much reduced. Plus ther are some factory info on 22 Hornet loads for those required factory loads before venturing down the reduced load highway.
Thought this might be of interest.
GregH

It is, Greg. I'm working with the Fireball myself right now and one of the tag ends of the project is to do some pressure testing of both full power and reduced loads. I'm very curious to see what kind of pressure traces I'm getting with Bee-equivalent loads using Blue Dot, 5744, 2400 and possibly even some Trail Boss. Might be veeerrrrry interesting!

Man you are quick to reply. 2400 has never been a favorite of mine for some reason. THe Blue Dot has worked well. The 5744 is a short cut extruded double base powder that has good bulk density and 12 grains or so sure fits well. Sometimes I guess I just like something different. Let us know how the pressures look.
THanks
GregH

I can't think of anything that needs doin' with a .22 centerfire that the Fireball can't do.

Needless to say, I'm smitten...

I hope the 12 grains of AA5744 will run about 2200 with 40 or 45 grain bullets. The 10.0 and 10.6 grain loads didin't break the 2000 fps barrier and I think that is a little low for my use.
Have fun with the Fireball!
GregH

I am already, Greg! I'll see if I can squeeze in a group or two with your load on my next range visit (possibly today). I won't have pressure data for it yet, but I can run it over the Oehler.

I will run the 12 grain load over the Oehler as well this weekend and we can compare notes! Johan from AA Powder suggested 10.0 as starting and 14.0 as max, although his computations put the velocity higher than I have achieved so far.
GregH

Back from the range. I loaded a few rounds with RP brass and WSR primers, 12.0 of 5744 under 40 Barnes Varminator bullets. Also tested a few with 10.0 of Blue Dot, same other components.

The 5744 loads churned up 2190 fps and hit almost seven inches below POA (nine below the POI with my usual 3200 fps load of 15.5 LilGun)

I got an even 2750 with 10.0 of Blue Dot, and the group centered at point of aim. I think that's the one I'll stick with.

Thanks Rocky, I think I will have to reconsider my opinions on this subject. I am about out of Blue Dot tho and may investigate upping the charge with the 5744 which I have plenty of and see if I can duplicate the Blue Dot load. Thanks for the numbers.
GregH

Rocky,
I think I am out of luck trying to find a load that shoots to the same point of aim as my full house loads. My usual load of 16 grains of Lil Gun or 20.0 grains of 1680 chrono at about 3500 even. That may make it tough to get one of the reduced loads to match the POI at say 0 to 100 yards?
I may be chasing my tail.
GregH

Greg, I have my Fireball sighted 2.5 inches high at 100 with the full-power load. That gives me a long point blank range. The reduced loads aren't for long range, so if I get one that hits point of aim at 100, that's about perfect for my uses.

If I load two very distinct bullet (or primer) types, I can see instantly which load I have.

Here is my stance on reduced loads.

"Reduced loads are something that interests me as well along with cast bullet loads which are similar. Since I have been handloading since March of 1953 it's my 53 anniversary of enjoying the passion that this forum is named for.

Of the accidents that I have seen directly caused by incorrect handloads having a double charge or no charge are the most common. These accidents can blow a barrel off a gun and send parts flying.

So please look into every case after charging it. A pen light is necessary to do this on small calibers. This is crucial.

Back when I started IMR's SR 4759 had been developed for reduced loads. Since the time that I started shooting reduced loads I have never found a better powder than 4759 in terms of bulk, accuracy or safety. It's clean burning as well.

The thing about double charging with fast burning normal density powders is that sooner or later it may happen. With most double charges of 4759 such a double charge will overfill the case. Also the loading density is higher which helps accuracy.

As mentioned the Speer Manuals give reduced loads for some cartridges and bullets and 4759 is a common choice from Speer as well. There is much other published data also by Dupont and IMR before Hogdon took over the distribution of IMR. At the momemt that data seems to be lost by Hogdon.

Here is some data from the IMR handbook for the 308 Win:

"Rem. Case: 9 1/2 PR Hornady 110 SPIRE PT.
.308 Dia.; 24" BBL.; 2.600" C.O.L.

SR 4759 31.0 (grs), 2710 (fps), 51600 (psi)"

"Velocity and pressure readings represent average values obtained under controlled conditions. The values shown may vary substantialy with the components and the reloading techniques employed. We suggest the charge weights shown be reduced initially by 10% to compensate for possible variations from the published data. The loads may then be increased as pressure indications permit."

Here is the data from the same manual for:

"REM. CASE; REM 9 1/2 PR
REM. 150 GR. PTD. SPCL
.308" DIA.; 23" BBL.; 2.700" C.O.L.

SR 4759 27.5 (gr) 2325 (fps) 51550 (psi)"

One can interpolate for the 125 gr bullet.

A while back when Eisenhower was President I noticed that many of the reduced loads using SR 4759 were about half the charge weight that was used for that cartridge with full charges of the usual powders. So I adopted that ratio as my nominal data for 4759. The 50% formula thus means that if the 308 uses 44 grs of conventional powder then half that charge or 22 grs of 4759 would be my load but only for the lighter bullets in that caliber. These have worked out to be final loads that are quite accurate as well.

As for the aiming of reduced loads you can use the bottom plex on your scope if you have that reticule and if it's a conventional variiable you can sight in your reduced load using the top of that heavy section of bottom plex as a post.

Now turn the magnification on your variable up and down to raise and lower the point of impact. A higher power will raise the impact.

Another idea is to only use a particular bullet for reduced loads. Thus in the 243, for instance, I use the 58 gr VMax as the full charge load and the 55 gr BT only for reduced loads to identify the loads.

Good luck and as always be careful."

Link

Excellent points, 99.

I got started trying reduced loads from reading Townsend Whelen's works. He always had a "small game" load, usually using cast bullets, for every cartridge he worked with. I thought that was both clever and reasonable.

Later, James Calhoon came up with what he called "Bee" loads for the .223. He started off using 800X, but soon discovered Blue Dot. I copied his loads and was so enthralled that I went on to work with other cartridges and other powders. Thus my so-called "penchant." (Which I neither dispute nor regret.)

I use the charge and seat bullet method in which I weigh the powder into a scale pan, funnel that into a case and immediately seat the bullet. No loading trays for me! The chances of double charging are vanishingly small under that method - barring an interruption of the cycle by phone calls, dinner or such; in which event, I only resume with empty cases.

The other powder that's admirably suited to reduced loads is AA 5744, BTW. It's almost an exact duplicate of the burn rate and qualities of 4759. Good stuff for the kind of semi-reduced loads you describe, cast bullet loads and some large revolver rounds.

The post about double charging is very good, I charged a case and when looking at it found the powder had bridged. Lucking I looked. From now on I believe in throwing the charge like Rocky. Don't want an explosion.
I got about 2000 FPS from 8 grains of Blue Dot and 2200 from 12 grains of AA5744, all with 40 grain bullets. Trying to keep my reports as low as practical. The plastic tip bullets still do a great job of upsetting! Rcoky I am glad you like the reduced loads, you are the one that got me interested in them. Maybe a bad influence? SFRAME says all reduced loads should be banned as they are DANGEROUS! Care to comment, I know they are fine if correctly concocted!
GregH

I admire Shaun a lot, but we semi-sorta kinda disagree about some things. He is absolutely correct that reduced charges CAN be dangerous. But I add to that: SOME reduced charges, in SOME circumstances.

First, any charge small enough to allow double (or even TRIPLE!!) charging would be catastrophic if a case were indeed double charged or more. A great deal of diligence is needed - as we covered above.

Second, slow-burning powders should never be reduced more than 10% below maximum. One of the worst culprits is H4831 (possibly due to the fact that it's used so much) with loads reduced 20% or more below maximum. For as yet unknown reasons, H4831 can occasionally produce incredibly high pressures with loads that only partially fill the case. With near-full cases, it is docile and predictable, but a charge of H4831 with a lot of airspace over it, and things sometimes go KABLOOOIE. Nobody really knows why, but the effect HAS been reproduced and documented.

Third, very small charges of fast burining powder in large cases have also been known to produce high pressures. This may be related somehow to the position of the powder - with the worst instance being with the charge lying in the trough formed by the case with the gun bore horizontal. Primer flashover is suggested as the cause. But again, nobody really knows for sure.

This is why I recommend using ONLY powders that are "fluffy" enough to bulk up to at least 40% of the case volume with the appropriate charge. Most of the Alliant "Dot" series plus 2400 fit this description in most rifles cases. Using extreme care during loading, visually checking every charged case and relying on Alliant Red, Green and Blue Dot powders, I have never had a pressure event while firing many hundreds (I'm tempted to say more than a thousand) of reduced loads. I also admit that I do not own a rifle larger than a .308, so perhaps there is added danger with more voluminous cartridges. If so, that's even more reason for me to not own any such rifles.

Rocky,

I have been reading your comments on reduced loads with a great deal of interest. As you mentioned, some powders are hazardous in reduced loads, however, I think that the medium and faster burning powders work very well in reduced loads. I have been shooting reduced loads for over forty years and so far, I have never had an "event".

One of my favorite reduced load powders is 4895. Hogdons says it is good to as little as 60% of max. I use it regularly at 50% of maximum and have for many years. I also use a cotton like filler on top of the powder charge in most reduced loads. Don't use cotton, however, use Dacron or something similar that does not burn.

Recently, I have worked on reduced loads for the 22-250. I have used H-4064 and IMR-3031 at or below starting charges to reduce velocity to the level of the .222 or .221. Works great and with 50-52 gr. bullets it is extremely
accurate.

Reduced loads are great fun and easy on the rifle AND shooter.

Jim

I agree completely.

I wish I could come up with a better term than "reduced" for some of the loads we're discussing, because that one word covers far too much. There are reduced loads using standard powders (as you describe so very well) and then there are reduced loads with specialty powders (such as 4759 or 5744) and then there are reduced loads with non-standard powders (such as Dot powders in rifle cases).

One could even delve below THAT level and talk about "gallery" or "indoor" loads. So the all-encompassing term "reduced" just doesn't cut it.

The gun club that I shot with many years ago in Dayton Ohio, had names for these loads. The loads that were in the .22 long rifle class in velocity (around 1200 fps) were called "gallery loads".

The loads that I like to shoot were "Match loads". So named because they matched the performance of lesser cartridges. For example: reduced .220 swift loads to "match" .223s. One of my "match" loads mentioned before is a 22-250 downloaded to .222 performance, which allows many more rounds to be fired before the barrel heats to the limit. We also used these loads in competition or matches because they were usually very accurate with less recoil. The other reason for "match load" status.

Unfortunately, time has blurred the memory, and I cannot recall what we called those in the Dot, 2400 catagory. These were mostly cast bullet loads anyway.

Keep up the good work, Rocky, I enjoy your posts.

Jim

After a moment's cogitation, I think I can do no better than use Townsend Whelen's phrase for them: small game loads.

That will work!