Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Idaho Fish and Game not following their own rules

Absolutely classic, considering... And talk about the whining victim...

What should the penalty be for killing undersize sheep if you want to fine mistake makers on drawing apps?

Funnier yet is the fact the state could have used the application process to weed out the bad applications prior to drawing. The application form includes date of birth... A very simple computer entry program that highlighted underage applicants would have protected the state from the errors. Again, the state is at fault for a lousy roll-out of the new rules.

There's no doubt that the IDFG screwed up by not properly vetting the applications. However, there's equally no doubt that it was made very clear in the regulation booklet that the kids aren't eligible. We're expected to know what's in that book, just like a driver is expected to know traffic laws.

Literally thousands of those with children affected by the new law failed to get it right. That represents a HUGE proportion of the affected individuals. The state roll-out sucked.

A quick check of Wiki shows about 11,000 births per year today and there were only two years affected, so 22,000 affected folks. And of those the vast majority would not have applied for tags. A thumb licked and stuck in the air says over 25% of the affected individuals, minimum, got it wrong.

A reasonable man would have to conclude the onus falls on the State to do a better job.

Expecting kids to know the rules and affecting the eligible thousands that got tags that you now contend should lose their tags, their entry fees, and from some be both banned from drawings and fined is ridiculous.

Especially since the intent of lawmakers was to open up the tags to those kids. Kids of equal ages in future years will be getting that opportunity. In comes down to a quibble over a start date, nothing more.

This is a special whinefest.

The kids didn't have to know the rules. Their parents did and they didn't read the well published instructions. While a few parents can't read, the overwhelming majority can.

I called IDF&G when the regulation became law - my 10 year old wanted to apply for Moose. They said no back in April. IDF&G failed to enforce its own regulations. The apps that included underage applicants (by law until July 1) should be thrown out with no fee refund. The tags should be placed in the second draw.

The tags should NOT go in the 2d draw. They should have a special drawing among the unsuccessful applicants in the affected hunts. If you put them in the 2d draw, it greatly reduces the odds of drawing for those who legally applied.

For example, lets say that they jerked 2 permits for bulls in unit 48 and there were 50 unsuccessful applicants. This would be a drawing among 50 hunters for 2 tags. If they put them in the 2d draw, there would be 50 hunters plus any number of hunters who didn't draw in other units competing for them. The odds drop dramatically.

A redo of the first, Bryon, for the reason Chuck indicated.
It should be those of us in the first without all of the illegal apps.
We should hear something today, I have a feeling ID will go this way.

Either way the state will be more careful in the future, they have faced a real sh-storm this week.

As was said before, the apps had everyone's birthdays. The software should have flagged the underage ones. It would have been a very simple fix.
The error was 2 fold. The applicants should have read the instructions and never submitted the applications. Plus, the IDFG should have had a way to sort them out.

Now you are getting somewhere... Vetting all of the apps again will take time.

Making it right for all the legal age applicants that got it wrong based on poor performance by the state gives them standing to bitch... and possibly file suit.

The State cannot win. If they just keep it the way it is (their first answer) no one is given standing they can use to file a meaningful suit.

I can agree with your argument. I'm not sure IDF&G is sophisticated enough to 1)pull out the illegal apps, 2) pull out the successful apps 3) determine the available tags 4)
run another draw based on the remaining applicants and available tags.

As we think about this, parents of illegal app kids are buying the tags now before a decision is made.

All of which is why the tags will most likely stay just the way they are...

This was posted on another board.

Here is the decision made by the Director.

Commissioners,
I have decided to allow the 362 kids who drew 363 permits to keep them. I
appreciate all the advice I have heard but the narrative below explains my
thinking and will be the foundation for communication with Idaho hunters.

Below is my message to Communicate this that were are editing:


After full review of all information and facts relative to requests for
reconsideration of my June 25, 2014 decision to allow applications for youth
hunters of age 9 through 11 for deer, elk and antelope to be drawn contrary
to guidance given by the Department, I have decided to let the original
decision stand. The administrative hold on these tags is lifted and postal
notification of all successful applicants will commence.

My decision is based on several factors. First and foremost is that there
are 362 young hunters who drew tags that will have their first opportunity
for a hunt taken from them if we reverse the decision. While I may have been
shortsighted in the original decision, I stand by these kids, their parents
and their excitement, in allowing them to proceed with their first hunting
opportunity for big game using these permits. I simply can not bring myself
to disappoint them given the confusion about this issue. I sincerely believe
that parents and kids thought they were acting legitimately. I ask those
parents that did not submit application to place themselves in the shoes of
the parents whose kids drew these permits, through no fault of theirs. Two
wrongs do not make a right.

Second, the Department guidance for the application process was not clear
and consistent in its placement or wording in the 2014 Big Game season and
rule brochure. For example on page 11 of the brochure under What's New -
Hunting Age, there is reference that an age 10 hunter may hunt big game in
2014 as long as they are accompanied by an adult, but there no mention of
the guidance on control hunts that occurs later on page 108. The deer CH
section mentions the youth guidance for age 10 hunters relative to not being
eligible to apply for the youth CH, but the elk and antelope control hunt
section do not have this same information. No mention in the brochure is
made for 11 year old who are not 12 at the time of the hunt being
ineligible. This was done in a news release latter.

Third, there is no Commission rule or Idaho law that established the
Department guidance. It was and is an administrative decision. This is a one
time occurrence that will never happen again. As of today any youth with a
hunting license who will be age 10 at the time of the hunt can apply for a
control hunt. There was no legislative intent language in House Bill 399 to
delay the control hunt opportunity for 2014 big game seasons. That was our
interpretation as an agency that we did not adequately or clearly
communicate to all. Thus no violation of rule was conducted by those who
were not aware of the administrative guidance and submitted an application
and drew a permit. Many very knowledgeable hunters I talked to that were
supportive of this legislation submitted control hunt applications for these
tags based on their understanding of the new law.

Finally, for those who asked us to address their concern that the 1000 youth
applicants may have affected their drawing a permit odds in the various
hunts, we will add an additional 363 permits back into each of these deer,
elk and antelope hunts. A draw for those from the age 11 (who will be 12 at
the time of their hunt) and older hunters in the existing applicant pool
will take place for these added in tags to address their understandable
concern.

I recognize my decision does not address the many children and parents who
paid attention to the Department's guidance and did not apply. I cannot make
right the potential lost opportunity. I owe an apology to about 1,500 age 9,
10 and 11 youth (and their parents) for a decision that runs counter to
their abiding by our guidance. I deeply regret that I have disappointed you.
I will be sending a letter to each with a gift certificate of sufficient
value for the control hunt application fees for the second control hunt or
other tags and licenses. You are justified in being upset with me in this
decision and I accept that criticism.

I hope that we as Idaho hunters can get beyond this decision and back to
enjoying the many remaining opportunities for second control hunt draw for
leftover tags along with the numerous Idaho general hunts for deer and elk,
including some with specific youth opportunities. Further, I hope that
parents and grandparents remember their opportunity to designate a control
hunt tag to their eligible child or grandchild. Thank You for your
understanding.

Not only is that a very well-crafted response, but it is the right thing to do.

This is who I feel bad for

"I recognize my decision does not address the many children and parents who
paid attention to the Department's guidance and did not apply. I cannot make
right the potential lost opportunity. I owe an apology to about 1,500 age 9,
10 and 11 youth (and their parents) for a decision that runs counter to
their abiding by our guidance."

The people that read the regs and followed the rules. Oh well maybe the wife or I can draw a tag to sign over to our daughter. If not birds it is this year. We will have fun no matter what.

Two, things, this was probably to be expected Mac. We live in an entitlement society.
Emotion trumps law and reason. Look at Obama and the immigration fiasco...but I digress.

I wanted the "1000 youth applicants" portion addressed for a redraw and the commissioner did that. (!)
My hunt plans are made but could be altered if a tag appeared due to this latest development, not a perfect outcome, but not all bad.
Just unfortunate for the kids and their parents who did follow the rules...

Agree.

I rarely draw anything and I'm fine with general hunts. My daughter can wait a year if she has to. Only a few late draw tags in November she would be old enough for. Doubt many will be in the second draw this year. But will give it a shot.

All she wants to do is flyfish this time of year. September she wants to chase grouse. So thats the plan.

An entitlement society, huh? You clearly missed the admission they did not do a good job describing the changes, the fact the date setting was arbitrary and not set by the legislature, and the fact they are going to give extra permits... wonder where the animals to fill them are going to magically appear from... to the whiners.

Good stuff, some wonderful ff opportunities across ID.

I've posted before, my wife and have won four once-in-a-lifetime tags in five years in Idaho. We taken several great billies (2 Idaho, one AK) and a great bighorn in recent years.
We should probably play the lotto. Grin...

You should buy a ticket. Thats awesome luck in the draws.

My wife just started hunting again after a few years off while the kids were young. She had a blast hunting last year and now is excited for this year.

From the article:
So, they're playing to both sides.
The number of kids who drew, 363, is far less than what we've been told before. The way I read it, about 1000 is the number of new kids who applied, not the number who drew which isn't what I've read.
They're letting them keep them to satisfy that side of the issue. They're also issuing additional tags and redrawing which will satisfy the other side. I'd thought about that as probably the best solution but I didn't mention it as I never thought they'd do it as they're usually pretty rigid on numbers that way. Considering that they're talking only 363 tags scattered out over hundreds of deer, elk, and antelope hunts, it will make little real difference in the harvest in any one area.