Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles 3 or 5 round groups.........Which one and why???

Just got through at the range earlier, and while doing a baseline accuracy group with Federal 168gr GMM for my .308 at 100yds, I decided to shoot 5 instead of my normal 3-rd test. After my first three, I was excited as there was really only one hole to be seen in the target. So that's when I pushed it to five rounds. Well, the 4th opened the group from what would have been .291" to 1.23", and the 5th @ 1.31. If I had stopped at 3, this would have been an all time best 3-rd group for me.

So, when it comes to strictly hunting rifles, does it really matter that 5rd groups don't hold together the way 3-rd ones do?

I keep a record of where the first shot hits from my hunting rifle's cold barrel.

Then I usually fire a second shot to confirm a 'group'. That's all I need for hunting.

Of course not every rifle is that good without some work.

Gotta say, in this A-Bolt, my "cold-bore" shot is pretty much indistinguishable from all the rest, and don't even discount it anymore. In fact, the .291" group mentioned earlier included my cold bore shot and was the first three shots on the 2nd string of this session after an hour long cool down. Outside temp was 75�, cloudy & calm.

I always heard 3 shot test load and 5 shot test shooter. Lots of stuff can come into play. Your natural point of aim could have moved, different grip or cheek weld, trigger pull, breathing, etc... Have to be consistent.

I seem to get a mental thing after seeing one hole after 3 shots. I get excited, then it seems to go down hill from there.

This is what I shoot for with my hunting rifles:

Consistent sub MOA 3 shot groups.
Consistent 1 MOA 5 shot groups.
Consistent 1.5 MOA 10 shot groups.

If I have a rifle that can't hold this type of accuracy, I send it down the road..

Depends on what you're shooting it for. If I want to compare different loads for the purpose of choosing a load to shoot all the time and change the scope setting for the winner, I will shoot 5 shot groups at different distance targets. five shots has a way of bringing out the real average.

I prefer 4 rd groups just be different and to keep guys searching for that 5th hole in my group.

3 shots will tell you something about accuracy - 5 shots tells you something about barrel-heating,/channel fit stability.


The answer to your question is "no" under normal/average hunting conditions and ranges. With what you said John, I just would not worry about it as a hunting rifle. The 5 shot group is a perfectly good group for the overwhelming majority of hunting situations within reasonable ranges to 300 yards. If you are anal (OK- I am, a bit... ), glass bed the thing at least around the recoil lug area. Probably free-float the barrel. This may not improve the 3 shot accuracy, may even expand them a bit, but will most likely stabilize larger shot strings.

I'd be more worried about it's stability under hostile conditions. It seems to have some heating/pressure point issues, which may translate into problems in wet conditions/wood swelling if it has a wood stock. If synthetic, forget about it.

Here is what I did in a similar situation. 20 years later, and now a fair number of game animals later with the rifle, I'm not sorry I did.

I bought a used factory standard (wood stocked) Ruger 77 tang safety model in 30-06 for $80 which had been badly abused, stored in a wet basement. The stock was peeling, the exterior was rusted. I figured the stock and receiver at least were salvageable for a knock-about "boat gun". I couldn't even see down the bore, so figured the bbl was a total loss. I totally missed the bulge at the muzzle until several weeks later when I had a chance to work with it at more leisure, but once the bore was cleaned, that didn't look half-bad. What kind of accuracy does one need at 30 yards or less anyway?

I whacked that thing off to 17 inches, and it shot 3 shots into a cloverleaf, but 5 shots into 5 inches at 100 yards. Obviously some pressure point heating problems in the stock channel. It also badly strung 14 inches vertical different bullet weights from 150 to 200 grain loads at 100 yards. A function of fore-end-tip pressure. (Much like a similar model in .338 WM I'd bought a couple years earlier).

So I took it hunting and killed a Dall ram at about 330 yards with 2 shots, both lethal, and 4 days later a medium moose at 70 yards - also 2 shots - moose take awhile to die.... but never used that ammo again, tho, based on it's terminal performance at both ranges.. After thinking about it for a year, I decided stability was more important, so glass-bedded the entire receiver area/trigger-guard/pillar bedded receiver screws and 3 inches of bbl forward of the recoil lug. Free-floated the barrel. It now shoots virtually all loads into an inch and a half at 100 yards, (allowance for bullet weights). Verticle stinging at longer ranges increases with bullet weight, as expected.

With any particular load, however, none go over 1.25 inches at 100, 3 rounds, 5 rounds, or 10 rounds. Wet stock or dry. I like the stability, over the initial 3 round group/5 into 5", especially here in Alaska with often extreme conditions and wetting of wood stocks, which stock this has. Despite the short bbl, I have confidence in its accuracy under all conditions now to 400 yards.. All I have to know is range and ballistic drop at same. I've killed to 356 known yards with it. It's name is "Stub". It's two most recent kills were somewhat in excess of that, judging by holdover to accomplish the deed, after an initial miss, and at about 20 degrees F, on caribou out on sea ice.

Nothing against the Stub, but I'm now using for these tundra caribou either a Rem 725 .260 with, featherweight barrel (but 1'" groups at 200, but I need a REALLY good rest!), or a 27" heavy barreled Mauser 98 in '06. I'll push both to 500 with confidence, as both shoot sub 2" groups at 200 yards, and are zeroed for 300.

Hope these experiences of mine help. Personally, I'd glass bed the receiver and floor plate assembly in absolutely flat in the stock (most factory rifles are not), and free-float the barrel, mostly to ensure stability under all conditions, - but that's just me.

4 shot groups work great for magnum rifles that hold 3 in the box and 1 in the chamber:

Yeah, that's me in a nut shell. Never really had a reason to shoot 5-shot strings, until the .308. I'll just need to get used to shooting 5 instead of just three.

Oh yeah- you can tell if your iron parts are flat in the stock (most are not) this way:

Tighten the front receiver screw down, then the rear. If either goes more than a half turn (a quarter is better), you are torquing (bending) the receiver to fit the stock. Needs glass-bedding. Preferably with pillar or column bedding around the receiver screws. Pillar bedding uses metal sheathes around the receiver screws, column bedding uses epoxy. Either is effective.

Clearance around the receiver screws is mandatory. You DO NOT want the screw acting as recoil lugs! They are only to hold the upper parts down tight to the lower parts.

Shoot multiple three shot groups on the same target using the same point of aim, overlapping the groups. What you will find is that your five shot group isn't lying.

^^^ This.

I don't think that three shots is going to statistically give a reliable indicator of where subsequent shots are going to go. I've shot groups that had two in one hole and one a little out or a great three shot group followed by a not so great next group or two great three shot groups but with a slightly different point of impact. The epiphany came when I stacked the targets, aligning the POI and holding up to the light to see how things ironed out. Guess what� Those fliers aren't fliers at all but rather part of the group.

Nowadays I want at least 10 shots so it will give me a somewhat meaningful indicator of where my next shot is likely to go. I know barrel heat can have an effect, so I don't normally just rattle off 10 shots, but, barrel weight dependent, break down the ten shot group, letting the barrel cool between each sub-group. For light barrels, I'll do a 3 shot group, let the barrel cool and shoot another at the same target, same point of aim, repeat as necessary until I have a ten shot group. Heck, you could let the barrel cool after every shot if you wanted, the point being to put enough shots in the group so you have a reasonable indicator of where the next one will go.

If folks will do this, they will see fliers aren't fliers and can't be discounted and slightly different point of impact between the three shot groups they are used to shooting ain't always due to conditions, but rather part of the normal dispersion that rifle will shoot with that load.

Gonna be a lot of naysayers about this method� All I can say is that folks oughta just try it before passing judgement�.

John

In a pure hunting rifle, all I care about is what it will do the first two or three shots every time, day after day.

What John said, then move the groups to 300 yards and you'll know what you really have.

Regarding the conditions effect on 100 yard groups, its not nearly as significant as one would sometimes like to think (barring extremes). When I have a rifle that is acting up and I want to believe its the conditions, I shoot what I call my "tester" (very consistent and accurate rifle). Every single time its proven that it aint the conditions.

I always use 3 shot groups. However I take the average of 4 or 5 3 shot groups.

I agree. But where most fail is testing to see what it will do every time day after day. Based on my experience I have never had the "cold bore accuracy" and NOT had consistency throughout.

These guys are right on.

Me too. Five different 3 shot groups over a period of several range trips tell me just as much three groups of 5 shots.