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4th point,

Only SOME of the post-'63 M70 extractors bend. Haven't heard of that with a pre-'64, and eventually the soft extractors on the "new" CRF M70's were changed to good ones.

You can also add the pre-'64 Model 70 to the list, since basically there's no gas handling.

I also saw a trigger blade break on a Browning A-Bolt.

In my earlier days mixing it the bench rest shooters, they several times, showed my broken 700 extractors and also said many are broken when installed new and the 2 pieces held in place by the lock pin which is why they often failed on that first box or 2 of ammo as MD outlined. Many Aussies were fitting Sako extractors for that reason decades ago.

As for bolt breakages, I never heard of it until I came on this site though I have seen more mis-feeds and extraction problems from Mauser actions and seldom from push feeds which usually have more issues related to magazine lips securing or releasing cartridges when the action is rebarreled to something different than the parent case.

I am certainly would not challenge another persons experience but because of John's summation on weather conditions being a contributor, find that aspect fascinating as I come from an arid country and have never lived or hunted in a wet climate apart from sambar hunting in the Victorian Alps, which can get very wet but not on every hunting trip.

John

Great info John, thanks.

Jason

Updated list...

• Howa/Witherbee = bolt stop screw breaks
• 700 = extractor, brazed handle, new trigger breaks in half
• Salvage = feeds like crap, trigger deactivates if pushed laterally
• Marlin X = bolt binds/jams if worked really hard
• Win 70 = brazed handle, soft extractor (some post-64), no gas handling
• T/C Venture = trigger breaks in half
• Tikkler = poor gas handling
• Browning A-bort = trigger blade breaks
• Ruger 77/Hawkeye = best SS hard use rifle ever
  

My CRF experience is not as great as most since I'm left handed and until recently few CRF rifles were available to us.

But I do understand that the geometry of them has to be right - they are a total system and all parts of that system have to interact with each other properly - the magazine has to be right for the cartridges, the extractor has to be tensioned right; even the magazine follower has a role. Almost all factory LH Winchesters I've owned will not adequately grab the cartridge rim out of the magazine, particularly the last one. That's another bug, all LH CRF rifles I've seen have right handed magazine followers. But anyway, unless the extractor hook is tensioned enough it won't grab the case rim. I could feed a round halfway into the chamber, withdraw the bolt and the case would just lie there on top of the follower or the next round depending on which side it was. The round had to be almost fully chambered before it was pushed up under the hook sufficiently.

One of the most positive Model 70's I've owned was a .270 WSM Featherweight - those rounds would positively jump up under that extractor when they left the magazine, but I understand that the first WSM rifles were buggers to get to feed right in CRF actions.

Another one was a Model 70 .375 H&H. I bought some Williams steel extractors to replace the MIM models on factory Winchesters and by accident put the .473 case head extractor on the .375 bolt. That tighter spring steel extractor absolutely held those cases in place! I was really tempted to leave it there.

Anyway, as MD has stated in various ways, if a rifle is reliable then it's reliable, if not then it's not, same with scopes. It will usually show you early on where it will break or it won't break even after years of use (not counting severe abuse).



But really, after going through a lot rifles, if'n I could do it all over (get my young eyes back but still have to be left handed), I'd take one of the two K98's my father brought back from Europe, throw on a sporter stock and a peep sight, have a gunsmith straighten the bolt handle - which is not hard to work even for a left hander - but otherwise just leave it as perfectly designed, properly interacting military 8X57, flag safety and all, and do all the hunting I've done all over again.

I like your thinking on the Ruger 77 Mk II/Hawkeyes; that�s why they compose my hunting rifle battery.

Don�t know of any major mechanical (or even minor mechanical) problems with them. Does anyone else know of any?

Also, add me to the list of folks with a broken Remington extractor. It happened on a nearly new rifle, and was quickly replaced. The extraction still isn�t the best with that action, which leads me to believe the groove the extractor fits into may be a bit oversized and allows some play. Perhaps?

Fairweather hardly describes our conditions here - so it undoubtedly affects what works well or not- just as 100 yards might be a long shot in some places while 400 isn't out of the ordinary in others. In any case I tested a trusted rifle some a couple of years ago; it was a combination of timing and purpose. We had taken a ride by snowmachine in late winter, a family trip of about 500 miles. It wasn't a hunting trip but I brought a rifle along just in case, a Ruger stainless MK II; it was zippered away in a canvas gun case and then wrapped in a blue tarp along with a pair of magnesium snowshoes, a Come-a-long, and a length of rope. The whole bundle was secured to the sled where it was easily available but it surely couldn't come loose or get lost either; it was pretty unobtrusive and definitely not obvious in nature.

When we arrived home after the trip, we didn't initially unload the sleds. One of the first things I learned was that a family member had become gravely ill and that I would be traveling - and making needed preparations to do so. The sled - including rifle - were neglected. Before it was all said and done I had flown over 10K miles over a two week period and my 'bundle of unknowns' were still on the sled. Winter had turned to the early stages of spring when things get wet and messy; whatever could happen probably already had. Then we had to deal with a compulsory move from the house we had lived in for 14 years.

Without making a long story too much longer, the sled ended up going through the spring thaw and rains. With plenty of other issues to address I figured I might as well test whatever hadn't already been tested a little longer. Finally in July I decided to look to see how well things had survived inside the bundle. I rather expected that the old Leupold M8 4X scope might have fogged inside the damp conditions of the tarp; I half expected to see the stainless rifle a bit pitted and maybe stiff to work. The only thing that happened to that rifle was a bit of staining to some of the carbon steel pins holding things together inside. Everything was thoroughly damp and 'sweaty' but even the nickeled cartridges and Barnes XLCs in the magazine were unaffected.

Ruger is hard to beat for hassle free.

I know of three different Model 77 stainless steel 350 Rem Mag rifles, owned by friends of mine, that all had serious feeding problems. Two were sent back to Ruger, and came home not much better than they left. The other one sits in the back of a safe.

Three sixty year-old 9.3X62 Model 640 Husqvarnas solve the problem perfectly.

Ted

How different is a Kimber MT 84M from a Mauser?

Off the top of my head, the Kimber has:

• round receiver vs square
• sandwiched lug (like 700 but somewhat hidden on S/A)
• c-collar, but I don't think its quite the same as 98
• bolt body vents to left raceway w/o much of a baffle
• enclosed trigger (but easily adjusted for weight, sear engagement, and overtravel
• 3-pos safety
• bolt handle screwed onto body
• blind mag

I have one in 7-08 and love it.

Thanks. Just to clarify, I have a Kimber, very familiar. I just don't know much about the Mausers.

Jason:
The issue with the M-70 extractor that I was referring to was the M-70 Classic introduced around or in 1992 (wilki).

They broke right at the hook when snapped over a cartridge head--they were too brittle--they appeared to be cast.

I bought a couple replacements from Winchester which did exactly the same thing and then IIRC, got a good one from Wisner.

Other folks had the same issue at the same time.

Which goes to show, the design means squat when quality of materials or workmanship is compromised...

I "think" Williams made machined extractors for Win for awhile.

The BACO extractors are now MIM?

No clue on Baco...basically a 98 slut with an M-70 or two...:)

Yes on Williams, he used to post on 24.

No. Those are spring steel...unless something has changed.

On any Classic, look for one or two tiny little lines etched onto the nose of the extractor. If you can see those(or, for those with lousy eyesight,feel them with your fingernail), it's a MIM.

Some very late Classics had spring steel extractors.

The Mausers are a very robust design no doubt and if you can find a commercial mauser all the better!

I prefer a mod 70 over the others for several reasons including the cone breach, best trigger ever and pretty slick functioning. I have only owned them in 220 Swift,30-06 and 300 H&H. These feed flawlessly and I have no complaints about them. I hear gas handling is marginal. I dunno- I have separated a couple of H&H cases and didn't burn my face. Maybe I have been lucky. IF I want a rifle that is ultra accurate, I prefer a 700 clone as they seem to be much easier to tune and make shoot well. I have never seen a pre-64 that shot sub .5 MOA; certainly not my Swift.

Dennis I agree on the M70.They have worked for me in lots of places,have the features I want and if the components are made of good stuff they are reliable.

I have had quite a few pre 64's and Classics and while I have shot sub 1/2" groups with them (some one holers), it isn't a design I'd use for a super accurate rifle.Generally though I can't recall many that I could not coax into some very good grouping,and that includes staying sub MOA to 500-600 yards. So they work pretty good as I doubt I am much better than that myself.

Dennis,

I blew a primer in a M70 Classic .308 (still don't know why) which is supposedly an improvement over the pre-'64, because it has a "gas block" on the bolt that supposedly fills the left lug raceway. Got a good blast of hot gas and a few brass particles right in the face, and was very happy to be wearing glasses. Have had a couple of cases let go in 98 Mausers and only felt a slight puff of hot air past my left cheekbone.

Would guess that a lot would depend on which part of the case let go in a pre-'64 M70, but am not crazy about finding out. However, would also guess a flanged bolt shroud (like the one on 98's) might help. Dunno why Winchester didn't do that, except possible patent conflicts.

Alaska Arms makes a Model 70 style trigger for 98's, and it's very good, though its also relatively easy to modify military 98 triggers for a very good pull. Have owned a couple custom 98's with that done, one by Bill Sukalle and one by P.O. Ackley, and did it myself on my .338.

John,

I've looked at that gas block attached to the bolt on the 70, and it "seems" like a good idea but apparently is limited in function. Glad you didn't get hurt. These rifles vent the bolt body to the left raceway, right? I thought the PF post-64 vent to the magazine.

Kimbers vent the bolt body to the left raceway as well which is something I don't understand. And no flange on the bolt shroud.

Jason

Mauser bolts have vent holes into the magazine as well--but in my experience more gas tends to head down the left raceway, as the only gas that would divert into the magazine would have to go through the firing pin hole. It's much more likely to get into the left raceway.

Have blown a few primers and cases in Remington 700 actions and never felt a thing.