Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Spar varnish stock finish

I would be curious what your actual job description was while making finishes...

Solvents are added to finish to make them easier to apply and to extend their shelf life. If anyone suggests it is to enhance penetration they have no idea what they are talking about. A 10:1 ratio of thinner to finish is so far beyond ridiculous words cannot do it justice.

Test it anytime with any commercial finish by coating opposite sides of the same board with thinned and unthinned finish and then cut in two after drying. There is NO increase in penetration after the most modest thinning.

Wood acts as a filter and simply strains the finish, leaving the finish on the surface while the solvents dig deep. The solvents inside cured finish do nothing positive for the wood.

UV protection has a lot more going on then simple reflectance. Suggesting a gloss finish is better than a silica-induced matte finish simply because the gloss has more reflectance is laughable.
art

OK, I'll wade back into this....

Varnishes, urethanes, polyurethanes, form a surface barrier and are waterproof. Urethanes are just a updated and generally improved version of old fashioned varnish.

Oil (and I mean true oils) soak into the wood and repel water.

Oils inherently do not have much UV light resistance and it is difficult to add UV light inhibitors.

Like a lot of so called "oils" Seafins Teak Oil is a is another version of spar urethane--read the specs. In essence it is prethinned for you.......

True oils can do a good job of protecting wood as long as the item is not exposed to much UV light. or other chemicals, or things like salt spray, etc. But oils are very easy to touchup or add another coat when needed.

Polyurethanes are inherently harder than varnish/urethanes, dry faster, bu do not hold up to UV light as well, and can be quite picky as to any other finishes or chemicals in/on the substrate, and because it is very hard, it is more brittle. If poly turns milky, you have something underneath that "burned" it.

Spar urethanes tend to be more flexible than other polys or varnish--a desirable quality for a gunstock. Oils definitely make it easier to iron out dents or scratches than coatings that form a surface barrier.

I would thin spar urethane no more than 1 part thinner to 2 parts urethane for the initial coats. The final coat no more than 1 part thinner to 3 parts urethane.

I've not yet tried this on a gunstock, but flat spar urethane applied as a last coat can give a look and feel that approximates an oil finish. Works on on other woodwork when I have tried it anyway. Flat spar urethane is hard to find on store shelves, most likely will be an internet proposition. There's always a chance an old-timey neighborhood hardware store would have some.

Casey

Casey
Sorry, but you are WAY out of touch...

Oils do not do much at all for water, except turn white to let you know it is there. Bare wood absorbs less water vapor than oil-finished wood.

Finishes seldom produce a waterproof finish and the more solvents added the less waterproof. If finish requires thinning to apply it is likely starting to cure in the container and should be tossed, or at least not used on a quality item.

Salt spray is no harder on wood finish than clear water.

Not all oils are easier to repair than all surface layer finishes.

Please define "urethane," "polyurethane," and "spar urethane" in light of the fact you correctly pointed out they are basically all the same.

NEVER use a flat or matte finish on anything you actually want to use. The flatting agents (usually silica) weaken the finish, create pores for water transport, and obscure the wood beneath... none of those are good things for a stock finish. Flat spar varnish is hard to find, because it should be...

As always, make a sample board and actually look at it before finishing anything that might take as long as a stock.

John
You are exactly correct. To help the understanding for some it might help to note the early difficulties in getting oils and urethane molecules to link up when curing. Once "modified" they linked easily and created a uniform surface...

Polyurethanes just linked up mo beta...
art

Has anyone else used this product and found it to be so easy to use?

Great thread here and I have a couple of amateurish questions. Will spray polyurethane applied over an oil based stain cause the stain to "bleed"? Same question re application over a water based stain.

I have a couple of beaten up birch 10-22 stocks that need to be stripped and refinished.

Stop it Art...

Polyurethanes have different molecule chains than urethanes, some of the same molecules, but some are different. The result I explained above. The difference is Art I know enough to do this for a living for most of my adult life, and it goes far beyond the varnishes/urethanes/polyurethanes we find at Home Depot.

In other words I've applied what I know across a wide spectrum of situations/substrates/climates using a variety of coatings over the past 40 years.

I stand by what what I said and have learned over the decades.




You are right, but it doesn't mean that flats are useless--far from it--just not as good as finishes with higher sheens.

Casey

As long as the stain is entirely dry--regardless if it's oil or water based--it won't bleed.

I have seen spar urethane/varnishes in a spray can. I don't recommend spray poly. It's not easy to get a smooth finish with any of the clear coatings out of a rattle can.

Casey

Good to know. Lot of helpful, knowledgeable people here. Thank you.

Casey
Happy to discuss this at whatever level you care to, but blowing smoke will not work well for you...

My generalization of urethanes versus polys in terms of general use by finishers at virtually all levels is correct... you can mince molecules if you insist.

I am the guy that gets called when the applicators get it wrong...
art

ETA: Why did you not argue any of the multitude of mistakes in your statements and hang it all on one bit of semantics?

Sitka, you sure do spend a lot of time trashing the opinions of knowledgable finishers in order to make yourself seem infallible. I've been finishing for many years, and know that alpine crick knows his business, as do a couple of others that you demeaned. So far, alpine crick has said nothing that I regard as wrong or off base. You, on the other hand, have. It would appear that you've been spouting a few errors so long that you now believe them to be correct. Mostly, you are correct in your beliefs. Mostly...but you spend too much time talking and are no longer listening and learning.

If you believe everything Casey said you make my point about everything you have said. Stick to specifics if you wish to challenge what I have posted and Please! Show me the first error you can find.

"Mostly" correct must mean you have several, no?

What is it with you Alaska guys?

As for correcting your mistakes, if I dreamed for an instant that you might listen to what anyone said that was contrary to your firmly held beliefs, I'd offer up some suggestions.

You just go on doing what you are doing. None of your inaccuracies are major and they won't keep you from having a good finish.

That said, it wouldn't hurt you to allow others to express an opinion that may not mesh perfectly with yours without you resorting to insults.

You made a large cluster of incorrect statements, period. MANY of those incorrect statements would increase the work and compromise the finish if anyone followed them. Those are facts.

While you list your emotions and opinions I will stick to facts. Still waiting for your first claim of an incorrect statement made by me.

Stop it Art....

I buy and apply dang near $100k in paint coatings a year--including clears like polyurethanes, urethanes, lacquers, catalyzed lacquers, catalyzed epoxies, and two component epoxies. I apply them with brush, roller, rags, my fingers, airless, cup gun, HVLP. I'm certified by Dupont, Cook's, and Sherwin Williams for their industrial coatings.

As much as any industry out there, coatings manufacturers and their engineers make claims that don't always bear out in the field. You can talk all you want about "linking modified oils", polymides, polymers, polyesters, amines and amides of every type, but it don't impress me--I've done wore out the t-shirt.

I know you have appointed yourself the official Campfire stock finisher, but keep in mind all the OP wanted to know is what to put on his stock and how to do it.

I'm done with the pissing contest Art, now focus on the original question.

If anybody else wants to ask questions, feel to ask me....or Art....then you guys can pick between the two versions as to what will work for you

Casey

Casey
Thank you for the background...

Now, why not address any of your mentioned absolutely false facts? Most are extremely easy to verify.

I stand by my facts, period.
art

...'cause none of them are false.......


Casey

Casey
Last post for me here...

I cannot accuse you of weak Google-fu because even the most rudimentary search would find you are totally incorrect.

A million a year in finishing products puts your business in the realm of the small autobody shop, congrats... The fact you use a wide range of products explains your lack of understanding of any of them... assuming you actually do use the claimed range.

Please, feel free to point out any errors I made. They will be allowed to stand because I will not address them here in the Gunwriters' Forum.
art

Come back, Sitka, come back. There's a phone call here for you from some guy named Flexner. Says he has a few questions you can help him with.

So,
what is the idea behind the sealer coats. I am understanding that these are a thin product for first few coats. Why?
I have no expertise in this other than putting a lot of spar varnish on teak and mahogany for Boats without the use of sealer. But stock finishers seam to use the sealer quite often.