Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa .470 Turnbull

There is only one way and one way only to guarantee that an animal can not move after the shot and that is to take out the central nervous system. Each biological animal is a law unto them selves, some go down from lung shot and some do not.
Since you like to read I suggest you read some of Bell's writings.

Not sure where you came up with this crap but it is no where close to true and factual. I have read plenty, but experience has more value.

This is all good and well, however, what have you found out yourself? Seems to me much of your opinion was formed by others and conjecture. Many of the "standard" DG rounds were "standardized" at a time when bullet technology was lacking to say the very least. We have come a long way since and now even calibers that 30 years ago wouldn't have been considered adequate are as a result of better bullets. That said, what is adequate? If a bullet of large diameter (like the .45/70 and the .470 Turnbull) can produce a large hole, and penetrate enough to not only reach and destroy the vitals, but also exit, how can this be described as merely "adequate?" I hunt with handguns almost exclusively and the paper ballistics make them seem far less than adequate. I can assure you that there are many big-bore rifle loads that are considered standards that cannot out-penetrate some of my chosen bullet/load combinations at far lesser velocities. I can assure you they are adequate -- from experience.

Rattler, look at the damage the sot did to this pig. He went down at the shot, got up and ran off literally leaving no blood trail. Do you think a larger more powerful cartridge is the answer? If so I have some ocean front property that you may be interested in located in Nevada.

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The discussion or argument of what is adequate or the "best" has raged for years, it even predates the internet, Nyschens, Taylor, Bell, Selby, Sutherland all had different viewpoints on what was best.

Most, but not all, PH's are not gun or bullet enthusiasts. They use what works. I have hunted Tanzania, Mozambique, and Zimbabwe, all with Zim PHs, all dangerous game hunts. I have only seen one 375 H&H in camp for a PH. The remaining ones carried mostly 458 Wins or Lotts, 470 and 500 Doubles, the odd 416 Rigby, and one had a 505 Gibbs in a George Gibbs rifle. Ammo ranged from new Federal and Hornady to Kynochs that appeared to be older than me. I can assure you there is not a PH that I ever met that would carry a 45-70 rifle or a pistol on the job. Bigger will work better, you still have to the animal correctly, but there is no substitution for horsepower or reliability on large dangerous game.

375 or 9.3 is the minimum dangerous game caliber in most countries with varying requirements for energy, mostly around 4000 ft. lbs. I guess exceptions are made for pistols. Client rifles in camp tend to be 375-416-458s or doubles 470 or 500s.

Client and PH responsibilities are different. I have always taken the view when choosing a firearm for a DG hunt that I would be doing the hunt on my own with no backup. After being charged by elephants in close cover and having been around some very upset buffalo I can assure you I would not carry a 45-70. Buffalo are tough if not hit correctly on the first shot. I do not know why, but they are. Several PHs have been killed in the last couple of years following up wounded buffalo, including some very experienced ones.

Another issue to keep in mind is bringing a hot rod round from 50 degree weather in Montana to 105 degree weather in Zimbabwe could be problematic. I like the extra case capacity and low pressures of the Nitro rounds.

I am a bullet whore and do love the new designs from North fork and CEB. The add another level of performance to any round.

My opinion on this subject differs from people I respect. At the end of the day we all kill or game and hopefully enjoy doing it. A lot of this is mental masturbation.

I need to go reload and practice some shooting. There is an elephant and buffalo that need killing in the near future.

EXCELLENT POST from someone who's been there and done it. While there is a great deal of truth to the fact modern day bullets allow us to use lighter calibers on bigger game, in my view Mike's post nails it. I will add this though, given PROPER bullet construction, SPEED KILLS. jorge

Not sure what he nailed. He claims bigger works better, but once you have enough I can't them being any deader. A bullet that puts a quarter size hole through the heart will kill just a s fast a a silver dollar sized hole through the heart. The proper bullet is much more important.

We'll agree to disagree. I don't care how "well constructed" a bullet is, but shoot a buffalo on the shoulder with a "well constructed" 3006 and then do the same with say, a 458Lott and there is a difference. To think that bigger is not better (given proper shot placement of course as only an idiot assumes otherwise) is just not what I subscribe to.

There's so many variables in any bullet strike it's hard to generalize. A small bullet might just miss a big blood vessel, and the critter runs a long way. The 45 cal bullet just nicks the vessel, and the trail is much shorter.

I do like the idea of bigger holes, in any case

The .475 TB #1 is fairly rare, less than 100 made according to Turnbull. Ruger also made a couple hundred #1's in .450 Nitro. I'd like to find one of them, too, but I've yet to see one that had really nice wood. (I collect #1's) The .475 makes bigger holes, but the .450 NE is a much bigger case, and could likely be loaded hotter. There's also more selection in .458 bullets, too.

The most instant, dramatic kill that I have ever seen on a buffalo was a body shot with 300 RUM. Quicker and more dramatic kill than my 416 Rigby produced or Jack's 450 Nitro.

Bigger is not mean better as long as you have enough. Saeed has taken 200 or Cape buffalo with his 375 and he thinks it is perfect.

You want dramatic? try a 416 Weatherby @2700 fps on a buffalo. Or ask Layne Simpson and the Brooks'. Saeed's 375/404 screams that bullet out of the muzzle and his Walterhog bullets are a clone of the TSX. I have no problems with a 375 as an all-arounder, but for elephant or as a PH stopper, in "my opinion" it is marginal at best, and a 45/70 is way below that.

Why? I'll take the .458 hole. A good flat-nosed solid will not only make a large hole, but a deep hole without "needing" 2,100 fps. The point is that there is enough momentum to punch all the way through.

By this thought process, if the .45/70 or .470 Turnbull is inadequate, handguns are woefully inadequate and with this I will wholeheartedly disagree.

The most dramatic kill I have witnessed was a cape buffslo I shot at about 25 ft with a 470 Nitro with 500 grain North Fork Cup Point solid. It was broadside when I shot. It slung its head back like a brain shot elephant and collapsed. High Heart shot. Bullet exited. The PH said he never saw anything like that before.

The worst kill I have witnessed was a buffalo shot with a 45-70 in a Contender. He was using Hornady DGX. It was not a bad shot. They tracked it for two days and by chance we bumped in to it while hunting and were forunate nobody was injured. We met up with the party that was tracking it, found the buffalo and the PH I was hunting with and myself put about 5 or 6 rounds of 470 Nitro in it to put it down. The bullet did not expand on the initial shot and caused little damage. To this day I believe the same shot out of a 458 Win-470 Nitro class rifle with a proper bullet would have put it down. He was also handicapped with a single shot firearm. I will add he took another buffalo later with the same set-up with one shot.

All shots are not perfect. All opportunities are not perfect.

The 375 H&H or Weatherby is a great round. Light recoil, shoots flat, has killed as much or more game while hunting than just about anything else. There is a reason so few PHs carry them in Dangerous Game areas. The Professionals know bigger will work better in less than perfect circumstances.

Exactly he uses a good bullet and locates it properly, my point exactly. I used to be a bigger is better believer but experience has proven that is not a fact. Gill Van Horn maintained that he never noticed any difference on buffalo from 375 to 470 . One fact remains put a proper bullet in the proper location equals dead. Guanyana prefer a 9.3 hardly big medicine and he's has stopped 2 buffalo charges with a 7.62 NATO round.

Not the best bullet IMHO. A friend of mine that you may know had no problem taking an elephant with a contender chambered in 45-70 and loads that he borrowed from JDJ. Ray lives in Morgan City.
His next 2 elephants were taken with a contender in 375 JDJ no drama in any of them just dead elephants.

Exactly.

Mid you are comfortable with your Turnbull go with it. I will recommend you load the first shot with a North Fork soft or CEB Raptor followed by either North Fork, CEB or GS Custom flat point solids. The Turnbull will work perfectly so loaded.

When Ross Seyfried guided he kept a 300 win in camp for clients to use on Cape Buffalo. I once asked him what Jo Anne Hall used on her Cape and he said his 300 win. Ted Hazlewood worked for Winchester most of his life took a lot of African game with a 458 win but the only one shot kill that he ever recorded on buffalo was not with the 458. The only one shot kill that he recorded on Cape buffalo was with the 300 win. Allen Day had a dramatic kill on a Cape buffalo with his 300 win as well.

There will definitely be more shudder at bullet impact with the 458 and more of a visual indication of impact but I have never been able to see that this led to quicker kills

You guys go right ahead then. Good luck and I'm sure you'll be in good company with all the PHs carrying 45/70 hand guns...And BTW, I never said any of the guns mentioned would not kill any of the animals mentioned, a good arrow will do the same ..

Sage words from those that have never tried it.