Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Controlled round feed, who wouldn't want it?

All it takes is a simple magazine spring to break and your beloved whatever has become a single shot! (Had that happen twice on an otherwise generally 'reliable' CRF : M70 375 H&H).

As BobinNH pointed out every rifle is a system wherein all parts must work together properly. A gunked plunger ejector may not work on a M700 (or other push feed type rifle) but a 'standing ejector' can be stymied even more easily and then they don't work either.

I won't hazard a guess on how many 'controlled round feed' rifles leave the factory in 'semi-CRF' condition but I would bet the percentage is high. I'm talking about rifles which work when run very slow, very fast and hard, and everything in between. No standard production rifle is one I'd trust straight out of the box (which isn't to say that it won't work or that I wouldn't hunt with it.)

Any rifle needs to be correctly set up and maintained reasonably well. I suspect a lot of people might get a surprise if they got themselves in a tight spot where they were 'shucking and jiving' hard and fast while they 'scorched the tailfeathers' of a pack of wolves doing the 100 yard dash or similar. A trip to a competent 'smith who knew his stuff well as it applies to function under any condition (or bullet configuration/length) should be considered when thinking about an 'ultimate' hunting rifle.

When I first started buying rifles a gunsmith sold me on the idea of the "three rings of steel" and the Remington "safety chamber"

I tend to still believe it.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3445551/2

Remington actions are very strong. Tales of folks walking away unscathed from blow ups are plethora. Laugh all you want. Nobody will ever convince me otherwise.

I never said they were not strong, but I'm still laughing at the vaunted "three rings of steel". Not sure that thread really serves to make your point, but I don't plan to try to change your mind. My opinion is they are just about as strong as most other commercial bolt actions. To buy one for the "three rings of steel" just means you have been successfully advertised to. Nothing wrong with a 700 action and nothing wrong with buying the manufacturers line of advertising.

WTF is, "the Remington safety chamber?"

I have several rifles of both types. Like them both and use them both. Here is my experience in no particular order:

1. Short action Remington 700's with box magazines in .223 and .308 will jam sooner or later. Period, end of story.

2. Installing a detachable box magazine in a short action Remington 700 will correct feed and eject problems, assuming everything else (extractor, ejector, etc.) are working properly.

3. A tac load (i.e., throwing a round into the action above an empty magazine box and slamming the bolt home) will work most of the time on a short action Remington 700 in either .223 or .308. When it doesn't work, the nose of the bullet is usually jammed into the vertical surface of the barrel/breech.

4. AI cartridges such as 22-250 AI mess up (i.e., require some modifications to fix) magazine capacity and/or feeding in short action Rem 700's. Can't comment on the .223 AI because I have never used one.

5. Fixed ejector designs eject loaded rounds much, much better than plunger ejector designs. Assuming the load/eject port is opened to proper size. Why does this matter? Because misfires do happen from time-to-time.

6. Neither PF nor CRF designs will feed empty cases. Now someone will say, "Mine does." Fine. Mine doesn't.

7. CRF actions are a system and require tuning/timing to work properly. Some work fine off the shelf, but many do not. However, once one is working properly it's almost spiritual. Bottom line, if you get a CRF rifle plan on having it tuned/timed.

8. Likewise, PF action are a system, but tuning them for proper function requires less attention. Example the detachable magazine box modification mentioned above.

9. Off side bolt raceways on Remington 700's will swallow standard size (e.g. 308, 30-06) cartridges and not drop them down into the magazine mortise in the worst of times. Getting them out while under pressure is a real challenge.

10. 3 Position Safeties make field stripping of the bolts very easy and handy.

11. Sako and M16 extractors on Remington 700's have a tendency to eject empty rounds into the scope. An empty cartridge after hitting a low mounted scope can be redirected back into the loading port and cause a jam. This can be corrected/mitigated by moving the position of the ejector button, which requires a new bolt. Mini M16 extractors with properly positioned ejectors seam to work pretty good.

12. I suspect long action Rem 700 will feed/eject better than short action 700's but can't testify to that because most of my field experience is with long action CRF guns.

13. Magazine size (read length) matters in a CRF action. A SAAMI length .338 WM in a long action CRF M70 with .375 H&H length box magazine is a pain to get to feed and eject properly. Recoil pushes the rounds in the mag box forward which messes up the ejection because the case head catches on the next round int he magazine prior to be ejected by the fix blade ejector. Had one like this several years ago and sent it to 3 different gunsmiths for a fix. All three said it worked fine. Nope. That .338 WM is now a .375 H&H.

14. I have never had factory Remington 700 extractor fail. The ejection angle of the factory ejector works very well. IOW cartridge casings do not hit low mounted scopes.

15. I have had a factory Remington 700 ejector fail because it stuck in the dirty ejector cylinder. Cleaning it fixed the problem.

There's probably more, but that's all that comes to mind now. People can/will debate each of these points, which is fine. But this is my experience. Hopefully it will give you information from which to make an informed decision.

6. Neither PF nor CRF designs will feed empty cases. Now someone will say, "Mine does." Fine. Mine doesn't.


Someone needs to fill me in as to why people say this. What does feeding empty cases have to do with anything ?

I have several rifles of both types. Like them both and use them both. Here is my experience in no particular order:

1. Short action Remington 700's with box magazines in .223 and .308 will jam sooner or later. Period, end of story.

2. Installing a detachable box magazine in a short action Remington 700 will correct feed and eject problems, assuming everything else (extractor, ejector, etc.) are working properly.

3. A tac load (i.e., throwing a round into the action above an empty magazine box and slamming the bolt home) will work most of the time on a short action Remington 700 in either .223 or .308. When it doesn't work, the nose of the bullet is usually jammed into the vertical surface of the barrel/breech.

4. AI cartridges such as 22-250 AI mess up (i.e., require some modifications to fix) magazine capacity and/or feeding in short action Rem 700's. Can't comment on the .223 AI because I have never used one.

5. Fixed ejector designs eject loaded rounds much, much better than plunger ejector designs. Assuming the load/eject port is opened to proper size. Why does this matter? Because misfires do happen from time-to-time.

6. Neither PF nor CRF designs will feed empty cases. Now someone will say, "Mine does." Fine. Mine doesn't.

7. CRF actions are a system and require tuning/timing to work properly. Some work fine off the shelf, but many do not. However, once one is working properly it's almost spiritual. Bottom line, if you get a CRF rifle plan on having it tuned/timed.

8. Likewise, PF action are a system, but tuning them for proper function requires less attention. Example the detachable magazine box modification mentioned above.

9. Off side bolt raceways on Remington 700's will swallow standard size (e.g. 308, 30-06) cartridges and not drop them down into the magazine mortise in the worst of times. Getting them out while under pressure is a real challenge.

10. 3 Position Safeties make field stripping of the bolts very easy and handy.

11. Sako and M16 extractors on Remington 700's have a tendency to eject empty rounds into the scope. An empty cartridge after hitting a low mounted scope can be redirected back into the loading port and cause a jam. This can be corrected/mitigated by moving the position of the ejector button, which requires a new bolt. Mini M16 extractors with properly positioned ejectors seam to work pretty good.

12. I suspect long action Rem 700 will feed/eject better than short action 700's but can't testify to that because most of my field experience is with long action CRF guns.

13. Magazine size (read length) matters in a CRF action. A SAAMI length .338 WM in a long action CRF M70 with .375 H&H length box magazine is a pain to get to feed and eject properly. Recoil pushes the rounds in the mag box forward which messes up the ejection because the case head catches on the next round int he magazine prior to be ejected by the fix blade ejector. Had one like this several years ago and sent it to 3 different gunsmiths for a fix. All three said it worked fine. Nope. That .338 WM is now a .375 H&H.

14. I have never had factory Remington 700 extractor fail. The ejection angle of the factory ejector works very well. IOW cartridge casings do not hit low mounted scopes.

15. I have had a factory Remington 700 ejector fail because it stuck in the dirty ejector cylinder. Cleaning it fixed the problem.

There's probably more, but that's all that comes to mind now. People can/will debate each of these points, which is fine. But this is my experience. Hopefully it will give you information from which to make an informed decision.

I pfhuqqing hate CRF,if only because I've had/have lots of them. They are fickle kchunts,as a best case scenario,but I can only speak in regards to 100's of rifles. Hint.(grin)

Had an interesting thing happen yesterday,while fireforming Nickle Virgins in the BMFOTP. 50gr V-Max,'2200 and a kiss,as per always.

Found it interesting enough,that I tried to pry the pfhuqqing thing out and had a Bar Wrench in one hand,a Dremel in the other and my heart was in it. Finally threw in the towel,as the bitch is beyond fused.




When it happened I shrugged my shoulders and pitched all of the lot out into the Rhubarb Patch and shot my Baby BR some more. This was round #11 of the 100 I had loaded and the first 10 were as per usual. Schit happens.

Sent the pic to Greg to see if he was in the mood to pfhuqq with it and if not,I'll buy a new S/S OEM bolt from Brownell's and send it to him to be bushed/threaded,then right back in the saddle.

Threw another bolt in it this morning and formed more cases of Virgin brass hulls and she weren't fazed in the least.

Best one I've ever seen,in well over 1000 pounds of powder expended......................