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Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? Hondo64d #9211545 09/27/14
Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 4,070 Alabama C ctsmith Campfire Tracker
ctsmith Campfire Tracker C Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 4,070 Alabama	Rapid Z pic: 2-10x42 set on 9x.

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Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? Hondo64d #9211748 09/27/14
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 14,491 Calgary, AB, Canada Jordan Smith Campfire Outfitter
Jordan Smith Campfire Outfitter Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 14,491 Calgary, AB, Canada	Originally Posted by Hondo64d Chuck, I have not timed shots with either the Rapid Z or Mil based reticles. I only know that it feels quicker to me to range, line up on or between the appropriate yardage lines in the Rapid Z and squeeze off the shot. I don't have to refer to a drop chart, only my wind value chart. With my LRHS or SS, I have to refer to my drop and wind value chart, dial the appropriate mil value on the elevation turret and hold the appropriate amount for wind on the reticle. I have not timed it, but have done both processes enough to know that it FEELS like referencing my drops and dialing takes me more time to do. As far as target size goes, I've got three 8" round plates and one 12" round plate. I set up so that the 8" plates are at 300, 400 and 500, and the 12" plate at 600. I've used the Rapid Z in a 3-9 Conquest with my .308 barrel and the 2-10 HD5 with my .260 barrel. With the .308, I'm shooting 155gr Scenars at about 2873fps. The Zeiss Calculator said at my environmental conditions that 8x is where I want to be and that has worked perfectly. With the .260, I've played with it using 3 different loads, 140gr Berger Hybrids at 2750 (8.5x), 140gr Hybrids at 2700 (8x) and 130gr VLDs at 2911 (10x). In every instance, the Zeiss calculator has been right on, allowing me to consistently make hits on my plates out to the limits of the reticle. The Zeiss calculator provides the appropriate mag in .5x increments. The zoom ring on my Zeiss are marked in .5x increments. Setting it consist of glancing at the mag ring and verifying I am on the appropriate mag. Unlike using an elevation turret, the magnification required does not change from one distance to the next, which is nice. I get what you are saying about target size. As targets get smaller, there would be a point where the Rapid Z would be a detriment. No way I'd be trying to hit 1" targets with that reticle. However, on my 8" plates, which are a smaller target than a typical Whitetail's vitals, I have found the Rapid Z to be no hindrance at all. I consistently get hits on my plates all the way out to the limits of the reticle, 600 yards. There is one advantage The Rapid Z has over my LRHS that I have definitely observed. The Rapid Z's reticle is more usable during the last ten minutes of legal shooting light. I loose the windage marks on the LRHS during the last few minutes. I can see the range lines and windage marks of the Rapid Z just a few minutes longer. Dialing definitely has some advantages. It's more precise. It is better for small targets. I can stretch things out MUCH farther than the Rapid Z. If I want to play at farther than 600, I put the LRHS on. Only takes a minute. I haven't hunted with the Rapid Z yet. Will be doing so this fall. For the hunting I do in the places I hunt, I think it will do just fine, and for me, requires fewer mental gymnastics. John It feels quicker to get a shot off, or quicker to make a hit? They're not the same Regarding your comment about the magnification being the same at all distances unlike with turrets, you still have to compensate POA for distance, regardless of the system being used, whether you dial a turret or hold the reticle on the correct hash mark after figuring out which one to use. But in the case of the RZ, you also have to check the magnification, which turrets don't require. So the RZ actually necessitates an extra step.

Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? Hondo64d #9211771 09/27/14
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 10,833 rcamuglia Campfire Outfitter
rcamuglia Campfire Outfitter Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 10,833	My statement is the truth. Can't access the page you post but it matters not. Sure, there are ways around the problem, but most don't have the inclination to solve the problem. The best way to go is a FFP reticle set up in MRad or MOA on both axis. Dialing is best but if you need to hold over quickly, you still can with a FFP reticle by checking your paper data on your rig or from memorized practice. The subtensions are the same regardless of your scope's power setting. Comes in handy when you forget to increase the power on your second focal plane scope so your reticle actually works. Listen to me now, thank me later... Originally Posted by Bristoe The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.

Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? ctsmith #9211777 09/27/14
Joined: Dec 2009 Posts: 3,395 F Formidilosus OP Campfire Tracker
OP Formidilosus Campfire Tracker F Joined: Dec 2009 Posts: 3,395	Hondo, I appreciate that. I'll be doing long range again week after next. I'll throw some numbers up. Btw- with your particulars (155gr Scenar at 2,873) in SAC, your dope falls within .1 mil of this- 100- zero 200- .5 mil 300- 1 mil 400- 2 mil 500- 3 mil 600- 4 mil Your 260 loads also fall within .1mil as well. Mil reticles ARE BDC's. Or can be. There is a whole bunch of good things that happen when reticles are graduated the same as their adjustments.

Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? Jordan Smith #9211780 09/27/14
Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 4,070 Alabama C ctsmith Campfire Tracker
ctsmith Campfire Tracker C Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 4,070 Alabama	John, how in the heck did you find your way around a Longbow when you can't even figure out that the RZ is not working for you?

IC B2

Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? deflave #9211786 09/27/14
Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 635 Back Home Spartacus Campfire Regular
Spartacus Campfire Regular Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 635 Back Home	Originally Posted by deflave I'll take two turrets and a side of reticle gravy to go please. Thanks. Travis That's how I roll. The gravy is nice too. Texas

Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? WBill #9211800 09/27/14
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 43,868 Hi-Line SamOlson Campfire 'Bwana
SamOlson Campfire 'Bwana Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 43,868 Hi-Line	Originally Posted by Wild_Bill_375 Originally Posted by SamOlson I am not a sniper so dots work fine for sub 400-500 yard hunting situations. If I am farther away then I sneak(which is more fun than fiddling with a scope anyway). Now if you are shooting past 500 yards then a turret is way more accurate and easier. I don't so it's a moot point for ME. Carry on with this badass, hardcore sniper conversation chit.....grin My thoughts exactly "hardcore Sniper conversation". Funny how times have changed. In early 1979 I was ordered to attend scout sniper training in Quantico VA. Up until that time I had a lot of good buddies in the Marine Corps. Once I returned to the FMF, all my buddies treated me as if I had leprosy. Now it's cool to be or should I say play a SNIPER. My issued rifle back then was M40 it was topped with a Redfield tombstone 3-9 scope. We were ordered to set it on 8 power and don't touch it again. We sighted in for 600 meters and held over/held under. We learned the trajectory. We were NOT shooting at 6" or 12" targets. Hits were easy if you knew the distance! The hardest was judging the distance correctly. With todays technogy in accurate dial scopes and range finders...imo it's real easy to play sniper today! This is the 'hunting optics' forum. 6x and dots works 99% of the time for shooting at a deer. Open sight or duplex. Or an uberplex or knobs or whatever. And then the wind fuucks it all up....

Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? Jordan Smith #9211817 09/27/14
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 5,792 The Big Country H Hondo64d Campfire Tracker
Hondo64d Campfire Tracker H Joined: May 2003 Posts: 5,792 The Big Country	Originally Posted by Jordan Smith Regarding your comment about the magnification being the same at all distances, unlike turrets, you still have to compensate POA for distance, regardless of the system being used, whether you dial a turret or hold the reticle on the correct hash mark after figuring out which one to use, but in the case of the RZ, you also have to check the magnification, which turrets don't require. So the RZ actually necessitates an extra step. Have you ever used a Rapid Z reticle?, Or even looked through one? Or are you just guessing? John If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? rcamuglia #9211823 09/27/14
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 5,792 The Big Country H Hondo64d Campfire Tracker
Hondo64d Campfire Tracker H Joined: May 2003 Posts: 5,792 The Big Country	Originally Posted by rcamuglia My statement is the truth. This what I quoted you as saying: Originally Posted by rcamuglia Then there's the problem with BDC trees matching the actual drop of your load. For them to work, the scope must be set to its highest power, and even then many are incorrect. And it is NOT true of the Rapid Z. John If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? Hondo64d #9211842 09/27/14
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 10,833 rcamuglia Campfire Outfitter
rcamuglia Campfire Outfitter Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 10,833	Originally Posted by Hondo64d Originally Posted by rcamuglia My statement is the truth. This what I quoted you as saying: Originally Posted by rcamuglia Then there's the problem with BDC trees matching the actual drop of your load. For them to work, the scope must be set to its highest power, and even then many are incorrect. And it is NOT true of the Rapid Z. John Depends on your load's drops. Are you saying the Rapid Z matches every bullet you can shoot? Laughable Originally Posted by Bristoe The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.

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Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? Formidilosus #9211858 09/27/14
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 5,792 The Big Country H Hondo64d Campfire Tracker
Hondo64d Campfire Tracker H Joined: May 2003 Posts: 5,792 The Big Country	Originally Posted by Formidilosus Hondo, I appreciate that. I'll be doing long range again week after next. I'll throw some numbers up. Btw- with your particulars (155gr Scenar at 2,873) in SAC, your dope falls within .1 mil of this- 100- zero 200- .5 mil 300- 1 mil 400- 2 mil 500- 3 mil 600- 4 mil Your 260 loads also fall within .1mil as well. Mil reticles ARE BDC's. Or can be. There is a whole bunch of good things that happen when reticles are graduated the same as their adjustments. Nearly makes me wish I lived in SA conditions. Just kidding. Doesn't pan out that way where I'm located. .4 mils off your numbers by 600 yards, or by only .2 if you're using meters. John Last edited by Hondo64d; 09/27/14. If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? rcamuglia #9211869 09/27/14
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 10,833 rcamuglia Campfire Outfitter
rcamuglia Campfire Outfitter Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 10,833	If you can explain this, I'm all ears... It's not in MOA or MRad. Centimeters? Are you phugging kidding me? Originally Posted by Bristoe The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.

Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? CLB #9211873 09/27/14
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 12,099 Wyoming JohnBurns Campfire Outfitter
JohnBurns Campfire Outfitter Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 12,099 Wyoming	Originally Posted by CLB Originally Posted by JohnBurns Originally Posted by Formidilosus This goes along with what Carl posted. Re- Horus Reticles. It is important to note that we have Horus reticles in every new military sniper optic because the issued Leupold scopes didn't adjust correctly. This is pretty funny and incorrect. I'd be interested to hear your military background champ.....I don't think you can hang with Form.... Am assuming you have proof of your claim? Proof that his statement is funny (it made me laugh) or proof that his statement is incorrect? Here's a hint, the RFPs are open source. You called me Champ. All most forgot, I was in the Air Force. I suspect I spent more time deployed OCONUS than Formy did. Okay I was stationed for 3 1/2 years on Kadena. Of course Formy can come clean and let us all know his background but we have been down that road before. He likes to be vague. John Burns I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.

Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? rcamuglia #9211886 09/27/14
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 12,099 Wyoming JohnBurns Campfire Outfitter
JohnBurns Campfire Outfitter Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 12,099 Wyoming	Originally Posted by rcamuglia If you can explain this, I'm all ears... It's not in MOA or MRad. Centimeters? Are you phugging kidding me? Rick, It's Mils. 1 CM at 100 Meters is 0.1 Mil. Sort of. There are a few different Mils. Last edited by JohnBurns; 09/28/14. Reason: Jordan is all picky about the metric system cause he is a Canuk John Burns I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.

Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? rcamuglia #9211928 09/27/14
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 5,792 The Big Country H Hondo64d Campfire Tracker
Hondo64d Campfire Tracker H Joined: May 2003 Posts: 5,792 The Big Country	Originally Posted by rcamuglia Originally Posted by Hondo64d Originally Posted by rcamuglia My statement is the truth. This what I quoted you as saying: Originally Posted by rcamuglia Then there's the problem with BDC trees matching the actual drop of your load. For them to work, the scope must be set to its highest power, and even then many are incorrect. And it is NOT true of the Rapid Z. John Depends on your load's drops. Are you saying the Rapid Z matches every bullet you can shoot? Laughable I'm saying you're guessing at best. I'm not. It is not a perfect match but is very close. When shooting at a deer's vitals I can live with 3 yards of difference at 600. The nine yards difference at 400 is still < 2" of error. I can live with that too... If you would go to the link I posted you would get an idea of how it works. You select the scope and reticle you are using, put in your load data, atmospherics sight height and it will calculate which magnification best matches the reticle to your load. It is generally very close, as in each line is likely to be no more than 4 yards off their labeled value. I have verified this by actual shooting. Here, I'll make it easy for you: John If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? rcamuglia #9211941 09/27/14
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 5,792 The Big Country H Hondo64d Campfire Tracker
Hondo64d Campfire Tracker H Joined: May 2003 Posts: 5,792 The Big Country	Originally Posted by rcamuglia If you can explain this, I'm all ears... It's not in MOA or MRad. Centimeters? Are you phugging kidding me? Rick, You're looking at the version for the European line. I've not found the sub tensions published for the Conquest Rapid Zs. 1cm at 100m is pretty darn close to .1 mil though� John If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? Hondo64d #9212009 09/27/14
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 10,833 rcamuglia Campfire Outfitter
rcamuglia Campfire Outfitter Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 10,833	Originally Posted by Hondo64d Originally Posted by rcamuglia If you can explain this, I'm all ears... It's not in MOA or MRad. Centimeters? Are you phugging kidding me? Rick, You're looking at the version for the European line. I've not found the sub tensions published for the Conquest Rapid Zs. 1cm at 100m is pretty darn close to .1 mil though� John Let's cut the bullchit. The reason we have scopes on our rifles is to be able to accurately place bullets on targets. The reason a shotgunner fits his shotgun is the same; to hit more targets. If more hunters would fit their shotguns as a target shooter would, they would kill more birds, plain and simple. The same goes with rifle shooting. A Hunter's concern is to be able to accurately deliver a bullet to their intended target. That's what this thread is about; which is the best method to accomplish the task? Why wouldn't a rifle hunter set his rifle up like a rifle target shooter? Doing so will result in better shooting. If you don't believe so, simply go to a practical field match that mirrors hunting and use your holdover reticle. After you complete the match, look for your name and score at the bottom of the page. Originally Posted by Bristoe The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.

Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? rcamuglia #9212093 09/27/14
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 5,792 The Big Country H Hondo64d Campfire Tracker
Hondo64d Campfire Tracker H Joined: May 2003 Posts: 5,792 The Big Country	Rick, How accurate do I need to be? If I am easily putting rounds in vital sized targets out to 600 yards, is that not good enough? On a ten inch vital zone, I will give up an inch or two of precision to cut my engagement time by a second or two. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy dialing too, and do so often, albeit only out to 825 yards or so, which is about as far as I can stretch it on my place. I just like the simplicity of the Rapid Z. I bought one out of curiosity and continue to be amazed by how simple and easy, yet effective it is. So much so that I bought another. Believe me, if at any time I feel the setup has failed me and I miss a shot on a deer I feel confident I would have made if dialing the LRHS, I will post it right here for everyone to see. I just gotta ask you though� Have you tried a Rapid Z? If so did you take the time to find out what magnification best matched your load's trajectory? If so, were you not able to make hits on vital sized targets out to the limits of the reticle? Thanks, John Edited to add that a match that is supposed to replicate hunting scenarios does sound like a blast and I would love to give one a try. Is there a list of upcoming events by state? Last edited by Hondo64d; 09/27/14. If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? Hondo64d #9212161 09/27/14
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 14,491 Calgary, AB, Canada Jordan Smith Campfire Outfitter
Jordan Smith Campfire Outfitter Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 14,491 Calgary, AB, Canada	Originally Posted by Hondo64d Originally Posted by Jordan Smith Regarding your comment about the magnification being the same at all distances, unlike turrets, you still have to compensate POA for distance, regardless of the system being used, whether you dial a turret or hold the reticle on the correct hash mark after figuring out which one to use, but in the case of the RZ, you also have to check the magnification, which turrets don't require. So the RZ actually necessitates an extra step. Have you ever used a Rapid Z reticle?, Or even looked through one? Or are you just guessing? John I've owned and used the RZ600 quite a bit. In fact I witnessed a bud miss an elk at 492 yards because his RZ was on the wrong magnification and he was too hyped up to notice...

Re: BDC, mildots or Turrets.....? Hondo64d #9212164 09/27/14
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 14,491 Calgary, AB, Canada Jordan Smith Campfire Outfitter
Jordan Smith Campfire Outfitter Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 14,491 Calgary, AB, Canada	Originally Posted by Hondo64d Originally Posted by rcamuglia My statement is the truth. This what I quoted you as saying: Originally Posted by rcamuglia Then there's the problem with BDC trees matching the actual drop of your load. For them to work, the scope must be set to its highest power, and even then many are incorrect. And it is NOT true of the Rapid Z. John But it does need to be on one specific mag, most commonly the max magnification if that is where one is Zero'd and dope recorded and practiced.

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