|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
"I talked to a Chicago cop that shot a guy eight times with a .45 to kill him and that was a 230 grain Hydra-Shok," Langdon said. "And that guy now carries a 9mm �he realized that handgun bullets suck. "You have to shoot people a lot with a handgun."
Atta Baby,..8 shots with a .45 and moves to a 9mm for more ammo... bullet placement is the key to handgun stopping power
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,370
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,370 |
bullet placement is the key to handgun stopping power
Yep...practice, practice, practice...then more practice. A new (harder hitting) handgun isn't gonna solve the problem...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005 |
Well, training first, then practice, practice practice...
People gotta be given good basic training in handgun fundamentals. Unfortunately, I see a lot of ex-military guys who apparently weren't taught good handgun fundamentals. Practicing bad technique ain't gonna get the problem solved.
Second thing, if you don't know which parts of the bad guy to shoot with your blaster, you're much less likely to get an incapacitating hit.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Insufficient training is, always has, and always will be the biggest problem in any military.
Sufficient training trumps all else. Arguing whether a Glock is better than a Beretta or a Sig is worse than a Glock is a complete waste of fugging time.
And anybody that blames the handgun for their inability to shoot well, can't shoot.
Period.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,675 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,675 Likes: 1 |
Kevin, While I agree with most of what you have above, there are plenty of reports of M1 Carbine in Korea failing to cycle in sub-freezing temps, and plenty of reports that the .30 carbine round failed to penetrate the quilted coats that the Chicoms wore, and that is not all on 300 yard shots. I�ve never seen it, and I don�t believe it. At long range, heavy clothing can hinder the bullet, but inside 100 yards, no clothing is stopping or significantly slowing a .30 Carbine FMJ. I�ve heard that story repeated countless times, but I�ve never seen any official military report or test to substantiate it. There was some conjecture in some military reports that said that �could� be a factor, that�s all I�ve seen. I say failures to stop were due to either highly motivated enemy soldiers, or shots at ranges beyond the intent of the M1 Carbine. The M1 Carbine has sights graduated for 300 yards, and I can hit out to that distance with my carbine. But the cartridge is really a 150 yard round. Beyond that range and you should expect that effectiveness goes down pretty quick. So I say that those failures were due to longer shots. Until I see some substantial testing that shows otherwise, that�s what I�ll choose to believe. Most tests I�ve seen show the M1 Carbine out-penetrating the 5.56 out to 150 yards. So I maintain that within the rifle�s intended purpose, it was not only adequate for the job, but damn near ideal. I'll also attest to its effectiveness as a PDW since that is my choice for home. Dammm good choice sir. The M1 Carbine is a super reliable rifle, and so easy to shoot that with just 10 minutes of training, you can have a brand new shooter connecting consistently at 100 yards. The only problem with the cartridge has been cartridge development, the power is there if you load it right. The best round I�m aware of is the Cor-Bon with the Barnes 100 grain X bullet. Inside of 200 yards I�ll confidently say it will put anyone down with much more authority than a 5.56 FMJ. And a .30 Carbine soft point will also put people down with great authority inside of 150 yards. As long as barrier penetration isn�t too much of a concern, the Winchester 110 grain JHP is just devastating. At 100 yards it hits like a .357 magnum at the muzzle. Even FMJ�s are pretty effective out to about 150 yards, and the .30 Carbine FMJ is really very good at barrier penetration. I shot a round THROUGH a small 12� pine tree at about 50 yards. I share your enthusiasm. My GI Carbine is the one rifle everyone in the house not only knows how to use, but they�re both confident and competent with it. Good choice my friend.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,950
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,950 |
Late 60's, 11-B-10 A.I.T. (light infantry training), I recall maybe a couple of hours at most, all in only one day, of basic general familiarization - disassembly/cleaning/reassembly - and firing a few clips through the 1911. No qualification requirements whatsoever. The 1911's we used for training were no telling how old and for the most part all but wore out.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,194 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,194 Likes: 1 |
[quote=hatari]Kevin, While I agree with most of what you have above, there are plenty of reports of M1 Carbine in Korea failing to cycle in sub-freezing temps, and plenty of reports that the .30 carbine round failed to penetrate the quilted coats that the Chicoms wore, and that is not all on 300 yard shots. This myth apparently will never die. An M-1 Carbine military ball load will penetrate Level III soft body armor, which is thicker than the armor typically worn by law enforcement officers. Maybe we should issue quilted Chinese Army winter coats to all of our police departments instead of Kevlar vests. The only way an M-1 Carbine bullet will fail to penetrate a quilted winter coat (and the person who is wearing it) is if it doesn't HIT the quilted winter coat.
Last edited by wildhobbybobby; 10/22/14.
Life is like a purple antelope on a field of tuna fish...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,360
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,360 |
What's that old saying about the army is always preparing for the previous war...?
I'd want a semi auto in 308 and something like an HK in 45 ACP.
Last edited by 270winchester; 10/22/14.
Deus Juvat
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,361 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,361 Likes: 1 |
Well, training first, then practice, practice practice...
People gotta be given good basic training in handgun fundamentals. Unfortunately, I see a lot of ex-military guys who apparently weren't taught good handgun fundamentals. Practicing bad technique ain't gonna get the problem solved.
Second thing, if you don't know which parts of the bad guy to shoot with your blaster, you're much less likely to get an incapacitating hit. Practice and train all you want. But the game changes when you are shooting at a real man who most likely is shooting back at you or has some other weapon that can kill you and can move in three dimensions while you are trying to shoot him. How do you practice that? Some of these ex-military guys with bad fundamentals are still here. I'm sure many of them that have seen action must know something about how to survive a real gun fight. Just sayin...
Last edited by 99guy; 10/22/14.
"You cannot invade mainland America. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass" ~Admiral Yamamoto~
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. ~Thomas Jefferson~
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005 |
But the game changes when you are shooting at a real man who most likely is shooting back at you or has some other weapon that can kill you and can move in three dimensions while you are trying to shoot him.
How do you practice that? I admit, it's hard to practice that. But you can train for it. I've been involved in multiple such training events. Force-on-force training with Airsoft or SIMUNITION does wonders for preparing people to shoot much, much better in subsequent deadly force situations. Combine that with computer simulator training and solid square-range handgun fundamentals, and you can produce some pretty good officer-involved shooting results. I know of a good number of agencies that have done exactly that with their cops' inservice training, and their hit ratios in real street shootings have dramatically improved. Going from 20% hit ratios to 90%+ hit ratios is pretty convincing proof of the value of reality based training, in my view.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 33,856
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 33,856 |
Insufficient training is, always has, and always will be the biggest problem in any military.
Sufficient training trumps all else. Arguing whether a Glock is better than a Beretta or a Sig is worse than a Glock is a complete waste of fugging time.
And anybody that blames the handgun for their inability to shoot well, can't shoot.
Period.
Travis That's also why some folks (like me) can kill a bull moose with a 270.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,554
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,554 |
Is that why Navy Seals, Spec Ops guys etc virtually emptied out armories (like in Crane, Indiana for the USN) of 45s after 9/11 and sustained combat operations? I attended a CQB course put on by Northern Red back in August. The lead istructor, Tom Spooner, is a retired US Army Detachment D operator. I specifically asked him what "the unit" uses and he said pretty much to the man, Glock and M&P. They used the M9 then converted to 1911, which were unreliable, then adopted the Glocks and Smiths. I love my 1911s but I carry a 220 everyday. Apart from it being a boat anchor, it never not feeds or goes bang.
"I Birn Quhil I Se" MacLeod of Lewis I Burn While I See Hold Fast MacLeod of Harris
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,675 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,675 Likes: 1 |
What's that old saying about the army is always preparing for the previous war...?
I'd want a semi auto in 308 and something like an HK in 45 ACP. Until you had to carry it all.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274 |
Dad had me laughing about issued weapons when he told the story of his carbine. As a skilled mechanic they kept him in England during WWII, keeping B17's in the air. At some point someone noticed he still had his 03 Springfield, which he liked and used to qualify Expert. His Springfield was requisitioned, and he was issued an M1 carbine, which annoyed the hell out of him. In his words, he "pulled rank" (he was a Master Sergeant by then) with the armorer and claimed a Thompson SMG. He liked the Thompson.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,992 Likes: 56
Campfire Sage
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,992 Likes: 56 |
Dad had me laughing about issued weapons when he told the story of his carbine. As a skilled mechanic they kept him in England during WWII, keeping B17's in the air. At some point someone noticed he still had his 03 Springfield, which he liked and used to qualify Expert. His Springfield was requisitioned, and he was issued an M1 carbine, which annoyed the hell out of him. In his words, he "pulled rank" (he was a Master Sergeant by then) with the armorer and claimed a Thompson SMG. He liked the Thompson. Thompson's are a heavy chunk of steel to lug around.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,700 Likes: 4
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,700 Likes: 4 |
Why are they even bothering? They still won't learn how carry or use them correctly.
Z
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 99
Campfire Greenhorn
|
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 99 |
So who said you'd be so dumb as to be IN the tunnel when you tossed the frag, hmm?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 99
Campfire Greenhorn
|
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 99 |
yep, since he was in England, I'd have made them give me a pistol, instead of a longarm. Why lug around either the carbine or the tsmg.? What are you scared of, some drunken Limeys?
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 14,987 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 14,987 Likes: 4 |
--- CAUGHT IN THE CROSSFIRE --- A Magic Time To Be An Illegal In America---
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,152 Likes: 5
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,152 Likes: 5 |
On the other issue, as much as I like the old 1911 it's probably time to go to a Glock since they definitely keep on shooting. Probably need to have a frame mounted ambi-safety ala the 1911. Maybe add a cocking indicator. And a grip safety. Hmm, anybody ever looked at a Springfield XD? Yes, and just like Sigs, they don't hold up, yet. The XD is a new platform, and might just be the one to beat. Nothing Sig makes will hold up, and they are an armorer's nightmare. That quite a statement. Don't the SEALS use Sigs? My question was also rhetorical (Jorge). Never mind that Sigs have been one of two ( ok, I'll give you three) of the best rated pistols ever produced. And the SEALS don't usually choose a sidearm based on it's coddling requirements. Based on that, I've had a P220 or P226 for years. Never once has either tripped over a line.
|
|
|
|
504 members (1OntarioJim, 10gaugemag, 160user, 1Longbow, 1badf350, 17CalFan, 45 invisible),
2,322
guests, and
1,219
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,194,333
Posts18,526,724
Members74,031
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|