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Huntsman and Pete, you are spot on with those statements. For example, as Dad spoke of and I mentioned prior, he and his group found out pretty quick about the armor disparity.

So, when they would come across chunks they could cut off something else and weld to the fronts of their tanks, they were all about that.

One thing the guys in the unit would sometimes have to do when fighting superior, but outnumbered German armor inside towns and villages was to run straight through a line of buildings to get a better angle or surprise advantage on the enemy.

They didn't like that much, and felt like the locals were suffering the loss of even more homes and businesses after the artillery shellacking that precluded their entry into town.

Unfortunately, this was some very dirty business they were taking care of.

local dirt

Yes there was a lot of that going around, crew added extra field armor.
Some really ingenious ones too.
I recall hearing bout one crew that got a flat plate welded on. It was like a 3 or 4" pocket across the glacis. They then poured it full of concrete! LOL

I think that one was a fail.

But extra steel or etc. if it was not actual armor plate would have little effect except maybe as a morale booster.
A AP round would hardly notice it.
But that certainly did not deter the crews.

Running/fighting tanks in enemy held towns or cities is really dangerous work alright!
Especially with little or no accompanying infantry.

Hats off to those men like your Dad they got dealt some tough hands but carried them out to the best of their abilities and got the job done.

Just saw it with my son, good flick with a very few goofs. We enjoyed it, well worth seeing and I may even buy the dvd when it comes out.

Saw it tonight too. Thought it was pretty, but I saw a bunch of different small armored vehicles that I couldn't identify and immediately wanted to Google them.

I kept wondering what the purpose of the logs tied to the side of the tank served? All in all a pretty good show, and now I have to go find out what all those vehicles were.

The logs were added in the field as makeshift armor. I saw a couple M8 Greyhounds in the movie. The father of a good friend of mine drove Greyhounds in Germany in WWII.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M8_Greyhound

Not seen the movie yet, so this is just a stab in the dark, but many tanks carried bundles of logs to help crossing ditches and similar obsticles..IIRC the correct term was a "fascine"??

Lots of pics of WWI tanks with fascines. WWII tanks, for the most part didn't require them altough some halftracks did. Our halftracks had the "unditching roller" instead. I do know of some tanks that carry a log so as to increase main gun depression. T-34.54,55 and 62 come to mind. Logs as supplementary armor is hilariously funny.

Anybody know how the co axial .30 was fired on the M4?. Gunner I assume was in control, and I'm also assuming it was fired remotely through the same sight as the main gun? All these assumptions are based on my experience in LAV's some 5 decades after WWII so maybe things were different back then.

Coax has its own "on" switch. Same trigger as main gun. Sights same.

Maybe or maybe not..

WW2 crews did improvise all sorts of "armour", perhaps out of desperation more than anything, but consider what they were facing..

Because of the "arms race" between tanks and anti armour weapons, many of the weapons a Sherman might face would have limited effectiveness unless it was fired at relatively close range and at an optimal angle.

APDS was not really used until later in the war, and most anti armour shells were simple HE, HEAT (shaped charge) or APCBC. All these could have their effectiveness reduced if they were detonated away from the main armour.

I wonder if some of the improvised armour had this effect ie acting as spaced armour like modern day bar armour or RPG netting?

I am not suggest it would protect against the very latest APDS from the German 75mm and 88mm AT guns, but it might move the odds to a more favourable place against weapons like the Panzerfaust or the Pak38??

Thanks, exactly how it is 60 years later......

Yep they had some Greyhounds in the movie, wheeled scout AFV. 37mm gun, M2 50 cal and a 30 cal.

Ah yes the logs...useless against all German weapons except magnetic mines.
In fact the small extra stand off distance improved the shape charge effect on Panzerfaust and Panzershreck (German 88mm Bazooka).
But l'm guessing the crews never knew that then.

Most often used as traction in mud or could jack the tank up or down somewhat for extra gun ele. or depression. Laid em crosswise under front or rear.
Russians always carried em on T-34 and actually chained them to tracks iirc when needed.

Easy 8 had duck bill grousers added for extra traction on tracks too.

Pete

"I wonder if some of the improvised armour had this effect ie acting as spaced armour like modern day bar armour or RPG netting?"

It needs a fair distance too work prolly at least a foot or two off the armor then the blast focus would be lessened l think.

Pzkp-IVH and late models had the skirts around the turret and sides. Also zimmerit anti mine coating.

Heres a good link on it

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-iv.htm

Because the Pzkp-IV looked a lot like the Tiger in late war a lot of tankers believed they had encountered Tigers when in fact they had not.
It was a very capable tank in its own right.

Great wartime video on the PZKP-IV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NwX0EYht7g

Looking at modern bar armour, I think you're probably correct that a foot or two gives the best results, but post war, tanks went through a phase when even their integral armour incorporated a space..

The Israeli Merkava springs to mind as that was reputed to store diesel in the space between the armour..

Getting back to using concrete, until I did some reading as a result of this thread, I didn't realize how extensively it was used on armoured vehicles in WW2. I am not talking about just unofficial crew modifications either..


Its seems the American 12th Division added reinforced concrete to Shermans as part of an "in field" upgrade..A picture search on google shows just how much it was used..





It seem the Russians, Brits and to a lessor extent the Germans, also experimented with it ...Below is supposedly a T34 with extensive concrete armour:



Most modern accounts seem to write it off as being totally ineffective, but it must have had some positive effect, or why would the 12th have used it so extensively?? Especially considering the extra weight it would have incurred..

The concrete was apparently minimally effective at stopping a Panzerfaust or anti-tank round, but test showed that it significantly reduced the splash of molten metal that went in a tank and actually killed the crew. So, a tank with concrete armor might still get knocked out, but the crew had a better chance of surviving that initial hit and getting out alive.

Look at 1:06 in this video:



It seems the movie makers show the logs as added protection in combat. I'm not sure it would be as effective as represented.

The 750th Tank Battalion in the ETO poured reinforced concrete on its glacis had to use jackhammers at the end of hostilities to remove six inches of the stuff. Experiments conducted by the 709th Tank Battalion in February 1945 indicated that poured concrete did not stop bazookas from penetrating the armor plate, but that it did reduce the splash of molten steel inside the tank caused by the warhead to �negligible� proportions. Based on combat experience, tankers in the 753d Tank Battalion concluded that antitank rounds that hit concrete-reinforced armor had a reduced chance of killing the crew, even if they knocked the tank out of action.

Yes spaced armor was a end of the war (WWII) and post war development.

Merkava has its engine and fuel tank at the front iirc. It adds a fair degree of protection for the crew.

Christ does that T-34 look oddball or what LOL.

My nephew in today's Veterans Day Re-enactment at Camp Maybry in Austin. He's the middle of the 3 guys standin in front of the Sherman. It still runs great!

Well unless you have a hell of a home sound system, you are cheating yourself, the tank battles are an awesome display of the power they deliver.