.357 (both magnum and Sig) # of people shot - 105 # of hits - 179 % of hits that were fatal - 34% Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.7 % of people who were not incapacitated - 9% One-shot-stop % - 44% Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81% % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 61% - See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866#sthash.MGTP4GYl.dpuf
9mm Luger # of people shot - 456 # of hits - 1121 % of hits that were fatal - 24% Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45 % of people who were not incapacitated - 13% One-shot-stop % - 34% Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74% % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47% - See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866#sthash.MGTP4GYl.dpuf
45 ACP # of people shot - 209 # of hits - 436 % of hits that were fatal - 29% Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08 % of people who were not incapacitated - 14% One-shot-stop % - 39% Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85% % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51% - See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866#sthash.MGTP4GYl.dpuf
I knew someone would pull out an "incapacitation" chart. If you believe all that crap is actually scientific, I suggest you review your high school books on scientific method.
LT, thanks for understanding. It was never my intention to live "there". 15 years ago myself and my then girlfriend, now wife, built a nice new house on the outskirts of the Metro area in a diverse, but working class neighborhood. It was all new construction, so that kept out the riff raff. After the economy and housing market crashed, many of my regular Joe working class neighbors lost their homes. They were bought up by investors who then rented them out section 8. Since then there's been some "interesting occurrences" in our area, more interesting then I like.
Needless to say we are house shopping, my wife can't wait until we are able to move to a less exciting neighborhood. We are looking real hard at southern Weld County.
You'll make it, and rather than hijack the thread, I'll just say that the feelings you have displayed about urban life and LE are justified.
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
For those who think you have to have 15 rounds minimum. Can you point to ONE incident where a single person, civilian, not LE or military, engaged and hit more than 10 people, and survived the encounter? How about one civilian who actually used two 15 mags in a gunfight in self defense?
The only thing charts like this really prove is something we all already know: handguns are inherently inferior to rifles and shotguns in putting bad guys down.
The best you can do is go with a proven load in a proven gun and practice, practice, practice.
If you're fixin' to put a hole in something, make it a hole to remember.
Cops picked 15 shell casing from the neighbors lawn a while back. On another morning I counted over 30 evidence markers, mostly shell casing in a near by cul-de-sac.
I don't know the full details of either, but neither was a "two shot" affair, and I would of certainly wanted more then a derringer if one the receiving end of that wrath.
What you described does not sound like the standard impromptu mob scenario, but more like a drive by or other targeted situation. You think those were some kind of random occurrences? In any event, the amount of shell casings one or more bad guys leaves on the ground is totally irrelevant to the amount of rounds one needs to carry or to return fire to solve the problem. It's not a volume for volume deal.
By the way, I would move if I were you rather than carrying a gun that holds more ammo. I got tired of hearing gunfire from my house.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
Hey, antelope sniper, I saw a later post where you said you were trying to move, so I apologize for missing that. BTW, of all the houses I saw riddled with gunfire, I don't recall anyone actually being hit.
Last edited by Cheyenne; 11/20/14.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
Scott F - It's not a new can of worms all the other has been mostly BS. I thought the question was about concealed carry and capacity of firearm. The biggest question facing all of us is the concealed part. I don't care how well it stops,how many bullets of whatever type it holds it still must be concealed - Period. I have always been of the impression if you couldn't conceal it you couldn't carry it. I don't know about most people but I have never seen a holster that would painlessly hold a pistol under a knit pullover tee shirt. I personally can't stand the pain of an inside waistband type holster with the gun poking me and that's about the only type carry that allows this type of dress. I live in Southern Arizona and most time the sun dictates the dress. Only in the coldest of winter do I get the luxury of wearing a jacket for concealment and then there is really no problem with concealment. The question of which is better 45acp or 9mm and capacity will rage forever and there is really only a preference not an answer.How many years have people been debating which is better chocolate or vanilla ice cream. Does any one out there have the answer? Or to make it easier which is better a ribeye or a tbone or Coca-cola or Pepsi. I once heard someone say as long as you have 2 people you will probably always have 3 answers. I believe it.
I know, for a fact, that you can shoot one guy in the forehead with a .40 S&W hardball and he will shake it off and another will go DRT by a .25ACP in the shoulder. There are no guarantees.
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
Hey, antelope sniper, I saw a later post where you said you were trying to move, so I apologize for missing that. BTW, of all the houses I saw riddled with gunfire, I don't recall anyone actually being hit.
We've had several incidents here where someone was actually hit. The first incident I mentioned was a "run and gun" that involved at least 3 parties on foot, with at least one party hit.
Another time there was a big party brewing across the street from us. I took on look at the party goers and told the wife and kids to get in the vehicle, we were leaving, and headed to grandma's. When we returned, at about 4 a.m., there were cop cars everywhere. There was a shooting, one person hit with a .40 cal slug, but he lived. Another hoodrat saved by Hardball.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
" ... How many years have people been debating which is better chocolate or vanilla ice cream. Does any one out there have the answer? Or to make it easier which is better a ribeye or a tbone or Coca-cola or Pepsi. ..."
That reminds me of a subdivision in New Orleans that had a lot of streets named after historic locales. The subdivision was named "Bunker Hill," but I don't think the original developers envisioned exactly how appropriate the name would be a couple of decades later. I am sorry you are stuck there and hope you get out. Send me a PM if you think you will be in my area anytime.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
For any civilian who uses front pocket carry, how are your pockets holding up? Mine all have holes from the end of the barrel. As far as the 9mm vs 45 controversy, this has been going on a long time. Imo the reason government agencies liked 9mm was that it was easier to train females. Has anyone ever commented after a gun fight that they wish they had a smaller caliber pistol? If you can't handle a 45 then carry something you can handle but don't try to tell me that your 9mm is superior to a 45 acp. Reminds me of guys saying the 350cc Honda was superior to a Harley Davidson.
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
Scott F - It's not a new can of worms all the other has been mostly BS. I thought the question was about concealed carry and capacity of firearm. The biggest question facing all of us is the concealed part. I don't care how well it stops,how many bullets of whatever type it holds it still must be concealed - Period. I have always been of the impression if you couldn't conceal it you couldn't carry it. I don't know about most people but I have never seen a holster that would painlessly hold a pistol under a knit pullover tee shirt. I personally can't stand the pain of an inside waistband type holster with the gun poking me and that's about the only type carry that allows this type of dress. I live in Southern Arizona and most time the sun dictates the dress. Only in the coldest of winter do I get the luxury of wearing a jacket for concealment and then there is really no problem with concealment. The question of which is better 45acp or 9mm and capacity will rage forever and there is really only a preference not an answer.How many years have people been debating which is better chocolate or vanilla ice cream. Does any one out there have the answer? Or to make it easier which is better a ribeye or a tbone or Coca-cola or Pepsi. I once heard someone say as long as you have 2 people you will probably always have 3 answers. I believe it.
I read this on a tablet and decided it warranted a serious reply and a computer start up. Note: serious replys are rare for me.
I agree with you on every point. I live where I can wear a long sleeved shirt and at least a tank top 90% of the year. I don't even own a short sleeved shirt and have one pair of shorts that I have not worn in at least seven years. I carry a full sized 1911 IWB with a Milt Sparks VM-II all the time. Having visited AZ in the summer many times I know this is not an option for you guys.
It is back to carry what you have, what you can shoot and what works for you. If I lived in your part of the world I don't know exactly what or how I would carry. I think it would take a lot of experimenting on my part but something like pocket carry would not be off my list.
Oh, one more thing. It is vanilla, neither but rather filet mignon, and I would rather have water than a soft drink.
I have always been of the impression if you couldn't conceal it you couldn't carry it. I don't know about most people but I have never seen a holster that would painlessly hold a pistol under a knit pullover tee shirt. I personally can't stand the pain of an inside waistband type holster with the gun poking me and that's about the only type carry that allows this type of dress.
I've been doing that for decades with no discomfort, even with all-steel, service sized, handguns such as K-Frame revolvers and full sized 1911s. Once you're properly set up with belt and holster, it's only a matter of getting used to it. After that, not only is there no discomfort, but you feel funny if you're not carrying a full sized, full weight, gun on your belt.
PS Concealment and undetectability are not the same. You're required to conceal, but you're not required to be detection proof, i.e., unintentional "printing" isn't an issue in Florida.
.357 (both magnum and Sig) # of people shot - 105 # of hits - 179 % of hits that were fatal - 34% Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.7 % of people who were not incapacitated - 9% One-shot-stop % - 44% Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81% % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 61% - See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866#sthash.MGTP4GYl.dpuf
9mm Luger # of people shot - 456 # of hits - 1121 % of hits that were fatal - 24% Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45 % of people who were not incapacitated - 13% One-shot-stop % - 34% Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74% % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47% - See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866#sthash.MGTP4GYl.dpuf
45 ACP # of people shot - 209 # of hits - 436 % of hits that were fatal - 29% Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08 % of people who were not incapacitated - 14% One-shot-stop % - 39% Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85% % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51% - See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866#sthash.MGTP4GYl.dpuf
I knew someone would pull out an "incapacitation" chart. If you believe all that crap is actually scientific, I suggest you review your high school books on scientific method.
And just as sure, I'd knew you'd pipe up to refute it using the "oh that's not scientific bullshit". Bottom line is the charts are illustrative of events that took place out in the real world and not in a controlled environment full of geeks and pocket protectors.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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