Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Proof the Civil War wasn't about slavery...

Any references to back this up?

Here's what I've seen:



The governor was specifically told that only provisions would be taken to the fort since the men were practically out of food. To call that an act of war is simply a flat out lie.

In response from the south we have this:




There's no question that the South fired on American troops to prevent reinforcements, that's a flat out lie. They fired on the fort to prevent food from being delivered.

There was a failed German socialist revolt in the 1840's or so and a lot of those folks came later to America and fought for the American socialist revolution that Lincoln started.

So;

You do in fact believe that Sumter justified Sherman's war crimes?

No, it's not a lie. Troops were steaming south from either Massachusetts or the Washington, DC area, I forget which, to reinforce the fort when it fell. As I said earlier, President Davis practically begged Honest Abe to continue the negotiations to let the South go peacefully but he would not. I have no link but the info is out there if you want it. Many simply would rather think that the south started the war. Most historians familiar with the events agree that Lincoln's behavior was to create a pretext to start the war while maintaining the appearance of the South's aggression.

Yes they did. One of the most prominent Yankee soldiers in Missouri had fought in that German conflict, Franz Siegel.

Doesn't sound like a lock-stepper to authority...

Most German immigrants came to the U.S. because they were tired of autocracies fighting war after war and feeding a constant military industrial complex.

Pretty much describes most of European empires for hundreds of years that went unchanged until WWI.

Call me cynical, but personally I find proof that the Civil War was (in part) about Slavery by the number of times threads appear claiming it wasn't.

Naw. If you want to speak intelligently on the subject, read the history of Missouri during and around the WBTS specific to the issues in this thread. The Germans have a long history of lock step and it was in evidence very much, here.

lol

There were also 68 pro Union Germans from Comfort Texas who refused to sign loyalty oaths to the confederacy and attempted to flee to Union troops via Mexico. They were caught and 38 killed in two separate fights called the Battle of Nueces. Some drowned trying to cross the Rio. Comfort is a relatively long way from the Rio Grand but there now stands the Treue Der Union monument. It includes a US flag flown at perpetual half staff. I have heard that only this and Arlington Nat'l cemetery are allowed to do this.

I mention it because I often hunt nearby.

We stayed afloat until 1933. At the time of the crash, he had 75 starts. Right away the buyers started defaulting, and it took a lot of fancy footwork. In 1933, he was down to 15 outstanding properties when the banks finally called in all their loans.

He spent a few years doing odd jobs, including a janitor for the Wurlitzers (Organs) -- used to go see old lady Wurlitzer every Saturday to pick up his check. Finally in 1939, he was able to pick up the Mosler (Mosler Safe) Estate that was in default and moved it from near downtown to a piece of property in Mount Healthy, Ohio, and turned it into a complete self-sufficient farm. By the early 40's we were building again and by 1950, we had just under 50% of all the home starts in Cincinnati. The last start with our name on it was about 1965.



The main reason I relate this is because in many other places in this country, my Grandfather would have been hired as a gardener in 1923 and stayed a gardener. You need to be able to convince bankers to loan you money. That same openness was not available in a lot of places. In Cincinnati, my grandfather was seen by "white" bankers as someone they could hitch their wagon to. They fronted him the money and off he went-- not once, but twice. In other places he would have been seen as some sort of "furn" interloper.

BTW:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treue_der_Union_Monument

I hadn't heard of this place, but now you can see what I mean. Just waxing a few Heinies. Who should care, right?

Just helping this one get over the top.

Was thinking back to that comment myself.

Sumter by itself? No. But there were a lot of "atrocities" and "massacres" and "civilian murders" from both sides by that time. You can't just jump several years and say that one thing justified something later in the war.

Kind of like asking whether I think the nukes dropped on Japan were justified by Pearl Harbor.

As far as Germans not being considered white in the South, that is just absolute crap. There were plenty of Germans in the south and there were several German or as they were called in those days Dutch brigades in Southern service. For goodness' sake, the secretary of state of the Confederacy was a Jew in a day and age when a Jew wouldn't have been elected dog catcher in Boston. There were Irish Confederate units, American Indian Confederate units, even Mexican Confederate units. Patrick Cleburne was a Confederate General and an Irish immigrant. Stand Waite was a full blooded Cherokee Confederate general and the last one to surrender.

Any animosity felt towards Germans in the 1920s was as a result of the recently ended WW I when everything had been done to whip up public sentiment against the Hun. Germans changed their names to sound more American and even in England, the Hanovers suddenly became the Windsors.

In Poland today in the part that used to be East Prussia there is a tombstone placed there by the Sons of Confederate Veterans to replace one destroyed by the Soviets at the end of WW II for this guy: Heros von Borcke He proudly flew the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia from the battlements of his castle until the day he died.

All atrocities piss me off to be honest, but unfortunately not all groups have Sweet and Low packets to steal.

This poem was written by my wife's ancestor. HE thought he was fighting to free the Negroes. He died in a Southern POW camp.

See? First thing they want to know is "are you a Jew?" To answer your question, my forebears were Lutherans before there was such a thing-- gave succor to Martin Luther while he was being hunted by the church. I find your question very telling. As soon as they find out you're German, they want to know if you're a Jew.

The fact of the matter is I went through the exercise of explaining that on my mother's side, I am a Shreve. Henry Miller Shreve invented the Mississippi steamboat and founded Shreveport, LA. The Shreve family is from Nottingham, England, and the progenitor of the family was a member of Elizabeth I's court.

Now for the funny part: Everyone thinks Shreve is a corruption of "shire reeve" from which we get "sheriff" Yes, that's right I'm related to the Shreve of Nottingham. Truth is, Shreve is a corruption of "Sherif." The friend of Lizzy the First was nicknamed "The Turk" and originally hailed from Syria.

Given that folks from that part of the world were considered non-white, and considering that the south had strict rules (one drop) on blood. If the truth were known at the time, I don't think Henry Miller Shreve would have been able to vote in the town he founded.

So a year or so ago, I mentioned this rather ironic historical quirk on the 24hourcampfire, and somebody wrote in agreement, as memory serves me, seemed to think it was a good idea.

Now, I put it to you, gentle brother, what would you make of that?


One last parting story: Teddy Roosevelt was out West and the camp cook was described to him as a "Dutchman." What they really meant was he was a German. Teddy took exception.

"Oh,he's okay." replied the cowboy. "His mom's white."

Moral to a German American kid: they didn't even want us being cowboys!

I've never heard of that either.

Now if you had an immigrants accent(I don't think nationality mattered) you were white, but I'm sure you were treated differently by natives. That's not a "South" issue either.

There are tons of towns here that were literally divided amongst nationalities, often to the tune of separate businesses, even "Main Streets".