Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Military The best infantry rifle

"It�s been a long time since I�ve studied up on military shotguns..."

FYI, the Marines also used the 12GA Browning A5 in VN.

Yeah, our Sheriff's Office uses the Mossberg shotguns. They're also a little cheaper than the 870s.

I've never been a fan of the shotgun, but in Nam I carried one that had been given me by my former CO...it was a sawed-off Ithica, trimmed on both ends. It was lighter than a .45 (or so I remember) and I carried it strapped to my pack as a secondary weapon.

The M-14 and M1 were good rifles but they were heavy and the ammo was heavy. After firing one for 75-100 rounds in a few hours, shooters (soldiers) often started flinching. I've read that prarie dog hunters often shoot several hundred 22-250 rounds in a few hours and that they develop a flinch, even with 10+ pound rifles. I've been told this by WW2 vets, so I accept it as true, Jeff Cooper not withstanding.

The M-16 rifle weighs less and recoil is less, so I guess I'll vote for the M-16 as a more effective firearm. You can't hurt what you don't hit!

djs,
After a few hours?
For any engagement we had while I was carrying a M-21(operation Urgent Fury) their were no extended hour-upon-hour firefights!
When you engage or are engaged you had best have a accurate grid location as doctrine teaches when you are able to,you destroy the AO with ARTY,CAS or Navy 5"(too bad no more 16",sin loi to all those unlucky basstruds who had those fall on em)
If you had the 82nd with you then you could ask for the 3/73rd for support with their M-551 airborne assualt vehicle and it's 152mm main-gun.
If all else failed you had 81mm or for sure 60mm motar's for indirect fire.
Nope no more "trench-warfare were your stuck firing "static-position" for hours!
Unless you want a 60mm/81mm/120mm motar,105mm/155mm howitzer or plain old BLU-84's to rain hell on you.

If your on a shoot-an-scoot and your resupply is days away,well then whatever the local-troop is issued would be a prevelant choice.
Easier too to sound like the bad-guys and resupply is somewhat better.
Most troops have mission that dictate that they carry a resupply in their alice/molle but others have to carry other mission-critical equipment.
My ruck was never able to carry the amount of ammo that others did as my task was "area-denial".
You need a road or trail closed!
You want to funnel troops into a ambush.
You want to make any unit pay who is following.
Buildings opened,bridges closed.
My job was the engineer tasked to the 75th Regiment!
I started out as a 11B1V,made E-5,went to "Lost-in-the-Woods" and got my 12B.
Carrying demo and mines does not lend a large alice much room for much else!
Mike

Roger that! This is me, way back then...

Damn Hoss what the flock were you humping? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Is that by "The Plain of Reeds" or FSB Moore or Cai Lay?
Damn the 2nd Regiment got a crappy AO!
My older cousin served in the 9th ID, 2nd Regiment, echo company-75th Infantry from 1966-1970.(they went from LRRP to Ranger in 1969?).You probaly have shared the same grid-square on more than one night!
Mike

I don't remember this exact location, but it's probably the Plain of Reeds. I'm carrying an anti-personnel listening device called an Aquaboy, it's out of the protective tube in the last photo.











I have fond memories of those very same rangers. Those sonsabitches saved my butt many times and almost got me killed a couple of more times.

I was not told much from Wayne about his time over there till I got home on leave after Grenada.
I envy not any soul who served in that riverine crap!
You all have my unwavering respect!
Mike

The terrain varied quite a bit in the Mekong Delta where the 9th served, but one thing was a constant; everything was wet:

I remember the wet! We moved from the delta to hard ground about half way through my tour. The delta sucks big-time. I've seen mud so bad we had to pull people out with a rope.

Since we're posting pictures, here one of me in 1969

Well between Mac and Gene we got us a pair who have some very important time on different weapon platforms!
Good thing to have those who "been there and Survived That"!
Thank You!
Mike

Consider the case of some of the WW2 battles in the hedgerows and across Eurpope. I was told by a WW2 vet (82 Airborne) that he'd fire as many as 30+ M1 clips (8 rounds each) in a few hours and his shoulder was so brused that he could not hit a standing man at 100 yards.

I hate to be among the minority here, but for me it's a M 16 or M 4. I know what they do to people.

The 7.62 x 39 is a good round for short range combat. The 30-06 was a great round as well, but hardly anyone mentioned it. It's superior to the &.62 NATO, for knockdown power. But military strategy has passed it by. It takes a lot of transport to move ammo, and resupply is something you can never count on. Sometimes, as in Somolia, they just can't get the ammo to the troops.

While the 7.62 x 39 is a good round, only 3rd World countries use it. The armies of every one of the major powers rejected it. I suppose its long-range potential is not good. And it's the same with the 7.62 NATO...it's yesterday's news.

The best thing going for the FAL is that it looks cool. The rear sight isn't protected, and it's useless on full automatic. It's also not nearly as accurate as an M 14....the British tried to make it into a sniper rifle and finally abandoned it for a bolt gun.

In Viet Nam in 1969 and 1970, I led a recon platoon. We could carry anything we wanted, from grease guns to M 14s to shotguns. We had all these in our weapons room to choose from. Not a single one of my soldiers carried an M 14, except the sniper. This was their choice. The basic load we had to carry was 440 rounnds, which is just about the same amount of LC Match that fits into an ammo can, which is how the sniper carried his ammo. And it's heavy!

I lugged one of those heavy bastagies up Greasy Mountain in Ranger School, and carried two of them about halfway on the 40 km forced march, as one of the guys in the platoon was a wimp and couldn't carry his own.

The M 14 was issued as a second-line weapon in Viet Nam for folks who shoot or do other things, like artillerymen and (I believe) engineers, in certain areas. I also believe it was used in those tall observation platforms we had back at our main base, along with M 60s.

We respected the AK, or anything else that can kil you, and lots of weapons can. But I've never wanted a Commie weapon in my safe....had an SKS, but got rid of it. Sights are awful on an AK and the ergonomics are terrible. The sound of that safety clicking off has saved many a GI's life.

Any bullet that hits a bone is going to do some real ugly damage, as one guy said. If it doesn't, good chance of it boring a hole.

I strongly dislike the steel-cored bullets they're using now, and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't re-evaluate that bullet after this mess is over with. I was told by "someone in the know" that they weren't accurate at all. I don't see how they could be when they're made en mass with no way of assuring the core is aligned. (SS 110, is it?)

So, I'll stick with what I know works. Second choice would be a Commie AKM, I guess. Or one of those FAL rifles, which I know nothing about. I dono't know how fearful it is to run out of ammo, but I dream about it all the time. Give me something where I can pack a lot of heat.

Gene, I agree with much of what you said. Our basic load for the M16 was also the same, 22 magazines, but we usually stripped out 1 or 2 rounds from each magazine to avoid feeding problems. I also know what it's like to run out of ammo and words cannot describe the feeling of total helplessness. Usually, when our unit came under fire, only about half of us could move into position to return fire, so there was ammo available from others who were not so engaged. There were occasions when the entire unit was down to virtually nothing and the adrenalin rush of being in a firefight was replaced with sheer terror.

I remember as if it happened yesterday, a Huey pilot with balls as big as basketballs, hovering over us while the doorgunner kicked off cases of ammo to resupply us when we were under heavy fire. We watched him taking hits that were sure to bring him down right on top of us, but he was able to get out of there.

It's funny, I can no longer remember the specific details regarding the birth of my kids, but some of my experiences from Vietnam pop back into my consciousness after putting them out of my mind long ago. Recalling the incident that I just related caused more than a lump in my throat too.

Yeah, we loaded 18 rounds in a mag, as I recall. I don't know if this was strictly necessary, knowing what I know now about springs, but I took it for gratned and did it. The mag lips may have been the concern.

We had reserves of loaded magazines back in our base camp, and when the chopper came over the dropped them in a footlocker (or unloaded them more often.)

I was in a small unit and almost everyone was engaged when we had contact. The units not initially engaged would move up to provide more fire.

I'm sure there have been wound analysis studies done on both the 5.56 and the 7.62 X 39. I haven't read them, however.

I know if you hit someone in the sweet spot with a 5.56, he's going down If you don't, he's not. This seems to apply to 7.62 NATO, from the after-action reports of the Marines I read after the opening of the current gulf war.

Shot placement has always been the real thing. Most of my actual fire-fight time was spent looking at grass close up, and firing at flashes.

Ever since I got out of the army, I have never been without an AR for more than six months (Sometimes, bills had to be paid.) I now have three, and am seriously considering buying a CMP upper for the Colt I have. If I can find a good one.

Problem is, no one I can find has all the things I want. I don't want a cyrogenic barrel, (or don't want to have to pay for it) and I want to know who makes the barrel. Some are pretty sad.

I don't have a nostalgic desire for any of the military weapons that I have handled or used, but it would be fun to play around with a M79 grenade launcher again. Might be a real boon for Turkey hunting.

I don't have ARs for their nostalgic value. I like to shoot them as well.

They're very accurate, or can be....even the Colts with the NATO chambers.

After reading all these replies, it seems there are three camps. .308 M-14, AK-47 7.62x39 and M-16 .223. All have merit. Rifles seem to be divided into Valmet/AK verses M-14/Fn-Fal verses M-16 .223.
I have seen no mention of the rifle that takes the Valmet/AK action and the .223 or .308 caliber, The Israeli Galil. Excellent rifle. I played with a couple while I was in the Marine Corps. Shot as well as my M-14 out to 500 yards and was as reliable as an AK. It certainly has been battle tested. Any thoughts?

Apparently, the Galil has been discontinued for production. I heard it was a good rifle, but heavy.

Israelis are now armed with the M 16, for the most part. Except for artillery and relatively stationary units.

I didn't know this until I researched it, after being told on another site that was the case.

Odd that nobody has talked , except in passing, of the Garand. Best all around caliber most would agree, coupled with a time tested design. (Being a left-handed former Marine, I prefer the Johnson, but few have even seen one.)