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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,156
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,156 |
I kicked off this discussion and have read everyone's opinions as well as all of the articles and links. All is VERY interesting and educational. The main gist of the articles is that the cost of the machine (not to mention the learning curve to use it) is the limiting factor here. Figuring a base cost of $1,000,000.00 to get the machine (assuming you know what you're doing when you get it and start making barrels), you'd have to make nearly 3100 barrels to get to a similar price point to what is offered by either button-rifled or cut-rifled barrels.
The accuracy of the long-time hammer-forged rifles (Sako, Tika, and several of the other makers mentioned in comments)leads me to believe that if someone did make the investment and learned to use the machine, they could offer competitive barrels at a competitive price.
I was lucky enough to tour the Sako plant some 13 years ago and remember seeing them making the barrels. One of the questions we asked was if they used a different machine to make Sako barrels vs the Tikka barrels, the answer was no. They had three machines side by side making barrels.
After seeing the entire process, from raw steel and wood to the testing of each firearm, I was impressed. I can only assume that other European makers do much the same with their firearms and I would hope that the American makers (Ruger, Remington etc) would start to follow their lead. Reports from many users here of the accuracy of Ruger products seems to lead me to believe that at least ONE of the US makers is getting their stuff in order.
If the owners of the hammer forging machines had any excess production capacity, it would be interesting to see what they could turn out for the benchrest crowd. $1 million isn't really that much from an equipment standpoint, I'll bet just about any of the cut or button rifled makers have more invested in their equipment than that. If hammer forging machines were capable of turning out true benchrest quality barrels then someone would have bought a machine and have it running right now, but they don't. A barrel that will shoot 3 shots into 1/2" or 3/4" on a Sako or Tikka is still a long way from something that's going to win on the target circuit. A hammer forging machine may cost $1 million, but what it offers is economy of scale, the price is quickly amortized over the number of barrels it's capable of producing. In the same way a Boeing 777 costs $200 million but quickly makes it back by hauling a bunch of people. Given that most all of the high end barrel makers are backed up by 4-6 months right now, a million dollar investment to be able to turn out benchrest quality barrels and stem that backlog would be an easy sell right now. If a hammer forge were capable of producing barrels to compete quality wise with the top end cut and button rifled barrels then someone would be doing it, simple as that.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,866
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,866 |
Are you saying I can buy an un-chambered hammer forged barrel from ANY of those makers ? Have you ever heard of an on purpose un-chambered rifle sold? I didn't think so.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453 |
Hammer forged barrels are available for testing everyday. You get them from Remington, Ruger, and Weatherby to name a few.
Some of the benchresters purchase from these companies for their hunting rifles. Have we heard of any of them pulling a 26" factory barrel, having it cut and rechambered to use in competition? I must be misunderstanding what you are saying then Rich. I thought you were saying that I could call Remington, Ruger or Winchester and buy a rifled, but not chambered barrel just like I could from any of the custom tube makers.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7,180 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7,180 Likes: 1 |
I have tested blank hammer forged barrels from Winchester and from Hammerli. The Winchester was a full blank match rifle barrel and the Hammerli's were chambered but unthreaded and uncontoured. In both cases I got to try these barrels because I knew someone who could get them. The three barrels were as good as any barrel I have seen. I contoured one of the Swiss barrels to a heavy sporter contour (#4 Shilen)and there was no sign of any warpage or distortion. The other was turned to a HV contour and was set back (1/2 inch) and re-chambered to change the throat configuration. It is as accurate as any 308 I have owned. The Winchester was chambered and used as it was. Again, it shot every bit as well as the Shilen it replaced.
I do believe companies like Steyr, Hammerli, Sako etc. could produce as fine a barrel as can be bought but they choose not to sell barrels for the gunsmithing trade.
By the way, the Winchester barrel was easy to work with and seemed no different than any CM barrel but the Swiss barrels were TOUGH. They machined with considerable difficulty compared to the average 4140 barrel. GD
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,866
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,866 |
greydog,
Were they benchrest accurate?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,586
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,586 |
Here in Oz , Lithgow Small Arms Factory used to make target rifles (Omark 44) and also hammer-forged match barrels for the trade, under the Black Mountain brand name. They enjoyed a good reputation for accuracy, especially in long range competition. Recently the current management has announced that they are again offering hammer-forged barrels under the Black Mountain name, finished or unfinished, with options including chrome lining. It will be interesting to see how these go for accuracy. All I've seen of it so far is this, which doesn't look bad: http://www.lithgowarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Target_Graphic_final.pdf
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
If I was replacing a barrel and headed for top notch accuracy, I certainly would not accept a Sako/Tikka type barrel. IE hammer forged.
They certainly are likely as good or better than other factory barrels, but if talking top notch accuracy hammer forged, is out the window IMHO.
For the use of most folks ability, they should be able to exceed that ability.
I"ve not seen a factory tube not be able to shoot 2 moa ever. And thats more than enough for game at suitable distances for the majority of people.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 16,971 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 16,971 Likes: 1 |
http://www.firearmsid.com/feature%20articles/rifledbarrelmanuf/barrelmanufacture.htm This article is a good read. Interesting how a hammer forge introduces a special kind of radial stress to a barrel that may not be able to be relieved. The added complication now is the fact that they can put the chamber on the manderal, which lowers the cost of making the rifle, but again adds more stress at a key point. I think the only way to test the performance difference would be to take a "lot" of highly consistent bullets, and take multiple cut, and hammer forged barrels mounted in very, very stable actions and the do bot cold, and hot string testing with them. I'm not sure that everyone understands that many bench shooters rapid fire which heats up a barrel which can make it walk.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,168
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,168 |
If I was replacing a barrel and headed for top notch accuracy, I certainly would not accept a Sako/Tikka type barrel. IE hammer forged.
It really the definition of top notch accuracy I am curious about. It means different things to different people. For BR a barrel that runs 0.05 MOA worse than another would be critical. But for me on a sporter 0.05 MOA one way the other wouldn't matter to me. Back a few posts I wondered what a hammer forged barrel well chambered on a BR rig would do because, if a cut rifle barrel did .1MOA and a hammer forged barrel did 1.05 MOA, well then I might consider using a hammer forged barrel on my next sporter build if it cost considerably less. If the cut rifle did 0.1 MOA and the hammer forged barrel was .3 MOA, well forget it I would spend the extra dollars for better barrel.
The collection of taxes which are not absolutely required, which do not beyond reasonable doubt contribute to public welfare, is only a species of legalized larceny. Under this Republic the rewards of industry belong to those who earn them. Coolidge
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,139 Likes: 24
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,139 Likes: 24 |
Not all cut/button are benchrest accurate either.
BR circles tell stories about cutting up 10 barrels at a time to find one that's capable for what they need.
It's not like cut/button guarantees you anything at all when it comes to accuracy.
Me
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453 |
Very true. I think it's the care and time put into our button/cut rifled barrels that separates them from "production" HF barrels. I'm not aware of any HF factory barrels that are "air gauged" or hand lapped at the factory to ensure tight specs from breech to muzzle by any manufacturer before it leaves the door. As far as induced stress from either rifling method (cut or buttoned), I'm sure that cut rifling induces next to nothing during the process, but folks are not taking into account the stress induced during the deep hole drilling process. Obviously, stress (heat) is introduced to the interior of the barrel during this process, so unless someone is out there making barrels with an EDM, there will be stress regardless of the method used to rifle a barrel. IMO, if a barrel is properly stress relieved after rifling/contouring/fluting, the rifling method is mostly moot.
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 728
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 728 |
I shoot 1000 yard benchrest and much prefer cut rifled barrels from either Krieger, Brux or Bartlein (but I sure can't give you any kind of a valid reason why!)
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,139 Likes: 24
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,139 Likes: 24 |
Very true. I think it's the care and time put into our button/cut rifled barrels that separates them from "production" HF barrels. I'm not aware of any HF factory barrels that are "air gauged" or hand lapped at the factory to ensure tight specs from breech to muzzle by any manufacturer before it leaves the door. As far as induced stress from either rifling method (cut or buttoned), I'm sure that cut rifling induces next to nothing during the process, but folks are not taking into account the stress induced during the deep hole drilling process. Obviously, stress (heat) is introduced to the interior of the barrel during this process, so unless someone is out there making barrels with an EDM, there will be stress regardless of the method used to rifle a barrel. IMO, if a barrel is properly stress relieved after rifling/contouring/fluting, the rifling method is mostly moot. But there's nothing in the WAY a HF barrel that would preclude a concerned mfg from air gauging their HF barrels either.
Me
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29,383
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29,383 |
Very true. I think it's the care and time put into our button/cut rifled barrels that separates them from "production" HF barrels. I'm not aware of any HF factory barrels that are "air gauged" or hand lapped at the factory to ensure tight specs from breech to muzzle by any manufacturer before it leaves the door. As far as induced stress from either rifling method (cut or buttoned), I'm sure that cut rifling induces next to nothing during the process, but folks are not taking into account the stress induced during the deep hole drilling process. Obviously, stress (heat) is introduced to the interior of the barrel during this process, so unless someone is out there making barrels with an EDM, there will be stress regardless of the method used to rifle a barrel. IMO, if a barrel is properly stress relieved after rifling/contouring/fluting, the rifling method is mostly moot. Look up how Steyr does their barrels , it will be a eye opener. Sako barrels are lapped as are Steyr, Steyr barrel production
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29,383
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29,383 |
Its simply not practical for a custom barrel maker to spend millions on complex HF machinery when for much less he can pull or cut rifle a barrel.
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 11,211
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 11,211 |
Cut rifled barrels are the current fad.
20 years ago buttoned rifle barrels were the fad.
When done and chambered with care ,both are equal and would exceed the normal shooters ability to tell the difference +1. Had a buddy in Florida that owned a Custom golf store, I once asked him what golf clubs were most popular? He said 'whatever Tiger Woods is using'. LOL, and 90% of the people buying those titlest 681s Tiger used couldn't hit them anyway.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,138 Likes: 13
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,138 Likes: 13 |
As the others have said, hammer forged is for cheap high volume mass manufacturing. Hammer forged barrels are always bottom of the barrel although an occasional one might shoot really well.
Between cut rifling and buttoned it's a tossup. As Dave says, the current fad is cut rifling but I don't believe anyone can statistically show that cut barrels are any better than buttoned. You'll hear guys make statements like they won't use a buttoned barrel if it's light, etc. but there's really no rational basis behind that thinking. No, just empirical data. Pulling a button through a barrel induces a lot more stress than shaving grooves one ten thousandth at a time. Consequently, the thin cut rifled barrels are mostly stress free and will shoot good hot or cold if they are going to shoot at all. I have seen button rifled barrels that really go wonky when heated up. It doesn't seem to affect the heavier ones as much. A properly stress relived button barrel will not walk after a 30rnd mag dump.  Just sayin. 
John Burns
I have all the sources.
They can't stop the signal.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860 |
Look up how Steyr does their barrels , it will be a eye opener. Sako barrels are lapped as are Steyr, Steyr barrel production My Steyr Scout shoots the tacks out of the target. Thirty years ago the Steyr SSG had a reputation for walking rounds as it heated up, so they've obviously figured out how to avoid that. The SSG almost became the US Army's sniper rifle but for that.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,106
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,106 |
As the others have said, hammer forged is for cheap high volume mass manufacturing. Hammer forged barrels are always bottom of the barrel although an occasional one might shoot really well.
Between cut rifling and buttoned it's a tossup. As Dave says, the current fad is cut rifling but I don't believe anyone can statistically show that cut barrels are any better than buttoned. You'll hear guys make statements like they won't use a buttoned barrel if it's light, etc. but there's really no rational basis behind that thinking. No, just empirical data. Pulling a button through a barrel induces a lot more stress than shaving grooves one ten thousandth at a time. Consequently, the thin cut rifled barrels are mostly stress free and will shoot good hot or cold if they are going to shoot at all. I have seen button rifled barrels that really go wonky when heated up. It doesn't seem to affect the heavier ones as much. A properly stress relived button barrel will not walk after a 30rnd mag dump. Just sayin. I have/have had, Shilens, Schneiders, Pac Nor and a Hart in light contours. They all "walked" when hot. They also tended to shoot different bullets to different point of impacts at 100 yards. I haven't seen that with my Kriegers, Chanlynns and Classics. I guess all those other guys don't know how to stress relieve their barrels.
NRA Benefactor Member
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
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Joined: Mar 2002
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2002
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Not all cut/button are benchrest accurate either.
BR circles tell stories about cutting up 10 barrels at a time to find one that's capable for what they need.
It's not like cut/button guarantees you anything at all when it comes to accuracy. But the other 9 will more than likely shoot under 1/2"......
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