Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors 1961 Winchester Model 70 Supergrade Featherweight - Special Order 30-06

Hey folks,

Just sharing my new baby. While I have few Winchesters in my collection compared to others, the more I engage with them, the more I start to want to get more and more. This one in in particular is something I am still wondering if I am dreaming.

This thing is in new condition and is a special order to be built with no sights.

Enjoy.

Beauty, are you going to hunt with it? I would.

Being as this is one of the rarest production model 70's to exist and in the condition that it is in, I wont be risking any part of this investment any time soon.

Maybe when I retire with more money than I can spend.

That is not looking like it will happen in the next decade at this point.

Beautiful rifle! I have one just like it in 270. Very special rifle. Congrats.

Sightless supergrade fwt, I'm assuming. Looks like a nice clean rifle. Thanks for sharing. Are you the original owner and do you know for certain that it came from the Winchester custom shop?

They made a total of 321 Super Grade FW 30/06's which I guess would have been catalogued rifles.

IIRC, they stopped making SG rifles as catalogued items by 1961 (but I could be wrong about that;working from memory), so any SG by that date would be a special order rifle. The lack of iron sights adds to the scarcity and further evidence of Special Order I would think. Clearly a very rare variation of pre 64 M70 and worth several thousand dollars.

Normally I'd hunt about any pre 64 M70 but that wouldn't be one of them....which is why I've passed by any SG FW I had a chance to buy. They are a collectors item worth a lot of dough and at least these days I'd rather get a production grade rifle for a lot less money to hunt with.

I am not the original owner however the collection this came from included 50 plus very rare model 70's.

Being sightless and original, the only way it would have been produced would be in the custom shop.

I am a Jr. when it comes to model 70's but what information I can find would show that.

This sort of confirmed it for me.

http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/57/lid/3440

1960 was the last year for the super grade Bob...

bsa I thought it was right around that time. Thanks.

That is interesting. Could someone order a SGFW up through 64 in the custom shop?

Mr. Green: I think so...unless they suspended operation for some reason. I had a SG produced after 1960,and it was likely a Special Order rifle.....so I guess someone was working there.

The thing that's curious about your rifle is that the Rock island auction description says it was made in 1957 (or did I misread that?). Yet you indicate it was made in 1961.

Was it maybe built on an action made in 1957(per serial number) but the rifle itself was produced in 1961?

Maybe I have the DOM off. My SN is 5547xx. That is a 61 eh?

Yes that seems like the right number for that date of manufacture....I think it's Rock Island and not you.

Does not matter really.Still a scarce and valuable rifle.

Believe that the RIA auction was used as a reference....not the same gun as the extractor (and bolt?) are not jeweled and wood is obviously different....

What a great find! And not too beaten up.

The Rock Island was just a reference. I have to agree with some comments. I would love to hunt with it but knowing my luck even on the best of days. Id scratch it. The thing is basically new. I hate pictures with flash. I wish the weather around here would let me take pics in natural light.

You don't need to wait for the weather to change. Simply rig 4 or 5 clip-on work lights with daylight fluorescent screw-in bulbs.

Wow! What a beauty! You are on the fast track to the pre 64 mod 70 addiction my friend! LOL, It will have you looking at a bass boat and telling yourself,"you know what I only took it out 5 times, is it worth it", or in my case I will look at and old tractor and say, "you know what I only need one tractor"... Congrats on a super nice pre 64 SG, I love the smooth barrel,at 60Im finding myself selling more and more .22 Winchesters that do not have provision for scopes! very best WinPoor

I hope I'm not the only one to notice, but the buttplate is refinished and not correct and the barrel color looks a little off to me as well. Not to rain on anyone's parade but when one thing is wrong and we're talking about a rare configuration, it usually leads to more problems.

What makes you say the buttplate is refinished? Typically a refinished gun would have at least some sign of wear. The checkering and everything is perfect. The buttplate is aluminum and is absolutely correct. The finish is going to look different on a featherweight gun.Thoughts from any 70 masters?

The wear doesn't have anything to do with it. Winchester didn't make matte finish aluminum buttplates. It's totally wrong, 100% certain.

Id be cuuios of all the boards 70 collector opinions.

I have seen to many not look correct due to light and camera to make a "something is wrong" call on this gun, given the butt plate looks matte but it being a special order gun changes everything. I do know money and access to a good Winchester rep and you could have it your way! very best on a good one. WinPoor

Would that 61-62 rifle wear a S or SG stamp under the barrel?

Probably could have ordered anything you wanted to pay for back then. Someone brought up the butt plate. It should have actually been a composite butt plate instead of the aluminum. They started using the composite butt plates in 1959. It doesn't make a lot of sense that it would be aluminum, let alone being the wrong color as pre war pointed out. The finish on the barrel looks to be more like the mottled finish the stainless barrels had. I'd be curious to see if it has a stainless barrel????

1962...

I am no where near an expert and I could be totally out in left field, but wasn't the only supergrade available 1960-1963 the Supergrade African in 458? Or was that only 1963? I would look it up but I am 1500 miles from my bible.

Mistergreen, please do not take this the wrong way, but did you receive any proof of this rifles manufacture? The supergrade fwt is probably one of the most faked Model 70's of all time. The barrel finish does look a bit off, but it could be flash washout from the camera at just the right angle. Real light would help out alot. Same with the butt plate.

For the price they go for at auction, people do devious things.

IF it was a special order who knows? I know if I were to order one from the custom shop and a steel or aluminum Neider style butt plate was available over a composite (plastic) plate I would be getting it!

I wouldn't. I'd be all over a leather faced custom recoil pad they offered...

Looks like Cody letter time.

Given that this rifle came from a collection that includes over 50 model 70's which include pre 64 NIB 338 Win Mag, new condition 375 H&H Super Grade, the previously posted never out of the wood box Bull gun, multiple targets, pre war tangs etc. I will be shocked if this was not original.

As Winchesterpoor posted, it's a special order which could be more than just the sights. Naturally ill be bias until proved wrong by letter or some other means.

Thanks for all the thoughts/opinions.

People always seem to question SG Featherweights as not being original then the question is where do you get a stock from? It's realtivly easy to make a standard weight a SG with a stock off another rifle, you have a '06 SG and a 257 standard 3 screws later you have a SG 257. But where would you ever find a SG Featherweight stock from?

Cool rifle! It sure couldn't hurt to contact the Winchester Museum in Cody to see if they have anything on file about this rifle. The custom orders came in whatever configuration the buyer wanted, so there were some unusual mixes out there. The challenge is proving that it was truly a custom order with all work done at the factory versus someone piecing together a rifle on their own.

Eric

I will take some natural light photos this weekend and post the difference. It will be interesting to see the contrast.

Waste of time to contact Cody....

Thinking the blueing will hold up with good light.
Only question is the two EE's in steel that look rubbed out. The rest of the lettering is perfect. Again, it may be the lighting.
Do a quote and look at the enlarged pic.

I'll ask again. Is the underside of that barrel stamped Super Grade and if so how is it stamped?

I'd hunt that in half a heart beat.

The plate is marked super grade as would be expected.

Not questioning the floorplate Sir.
Given the date of manufacture I'm curious if when the rifle is taken down there is a stamping under the barrel which is normally not visible when the rifle is fully assembled.
If so would you be able to post a photo of it?

It's very nice. It kinda reminds me of old Kimber of Oregon that Aussie family made possible to us. Too bad that venture folded.

I sold woodworking items on e-bay for ten years.
A few years back, I checked the completed items section of a guy I did regular business,and inquired about two SG FW stocks that he had recently sold, never heard another word from him....

There's a company in Montana building SG stocks for around 1800 dollars.
Doing a nice job of it too but I have not seen a duplicate SG FWT listed from them. Only standard rifle to this point.

I've talked to smiths before that said, if, they can "build a SG to look like an original, anyone can"... What he said was in jest, but something that has always stuck in the back of my mind... . Back to the aluminum butt plate on this rifle. It should have been composite. If someone were looking for a real custom look it would then probably be the leather faced or leather covered recoil pad from the custom shop. Is this an older stock they held back? I'd like to see some more pictures. The diamond shape on the underside of the for end for example should tell us roughly what year the stock was manufactured. Is the bottom of the barrel stamped "super 30-06" there is probably no date stamp there as they went away from this after late '55 -'56. Does the recoil lug have the reversed "S" stamp on it. Pictures of those parts would also help.

I am going to complete a full natural light photo package for my photo journal this weekend and post em up.

There is no diamond on the underside of a SG featherweight BSA. Fakes are made by taking a regular SG stock, filling the screw hole and checkering in the diamond. I've seen it done so well you could only see the evidence in bright daylight. Drop in a regular featherweight barreled action and done. No shortage of dirtbags faking Pre 64s.

Well possibly ,however the barrel profiles would be different between a standard SG and a SG Fwt.
You could possibly take a standard carbine and turn it into a SG Carbine.

Thanks horseman.

So according to Rule ( finally home and able to look it up), the Super Grade Featherweight was made until 1959, with most of them having the aluminum butt plate, with few having the composite.

BUT BUT BUT... Mr Rule has a supergrade FWT, serial number 548,081 ( 1962) in 264winmag. His is NIB ( at time of book publishing) and the box has the stamp "SPECIAL" on it. His has the standard barrel with front and rear sight. His has the composite plate.

Now here is where the collection of Pre 64's gets complicated.

In 1962 you could still order a stainless steel barrel, and a barrel without sights ( gopher special).

That being said, this rifle "qualifies" as a Class 3 special order ( the 2nd most common special order.) The class 3 was a standard configuration with one non cataloged option. The sightless barrel was a cataloged option, the stainless steel barrel is not. The FWTSG was a standard rifle configuration.


The only thing that gets me is the butt plate. This is why I put "qualifies" in quotes. Winchester stopped using the aluminum before 1960 and could there be one laying around on a gunsmiths bench and when ordered it was installed?? Heck yeah it could happen. Heck probably back then you could call up winchester while standing at the hardware store counter and talk to the gunsmith over the phone.

If Cody can authenticate that would do very well to help in your value assessment. Or if you have the box with the label on it. I believe all the labels were marked with the options on it.

Again I am just trying to help, and using what I see in the pictures and deciphering the special order documentation Mr. Rule has spelled out ( hard to follow sometime).

Winchester only made 321 documented SGFWT's in 3006.

Now again, no expert here. Documentation is the key. I would spend the 70 bucks and see if Cody can help out at all.

Good research. BUT.... What about the rifles that were built by employees and walked right out the back door??? Something to think about. Cody would have no record of those rifles..

Correct. Worth a try in my opinion.

Either way, I would shoot and hunt the SOB. They were made to be used.

Cody does not have records for any pre64 M70's that would indicate specific caliber or configuration. Pauline Muerrle does have the Polishing Room records (indicate date that the receiver was serialized) for a range of serial#'s on rifles that precede this one by more than a few years.

Oh yes, Pauline Muerrle. It would be worthwhile to ask nicely at Winchester shotguns section of ShotgunWorld. They have many very knowledgeable members that know their Winchesters. Great place to learn about "lunch box" specials. One can take what they tell "to the bank".

Here is a photo update for the opinions that be. I love the discussion. Thank you for your thoughts.







[img]http://i61.tinypic.com/sfl6hl.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i61.tinypic.com/1feon5.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i62.tinypic.com/2qx01hz.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i58.tinypic.com/2e1caa0.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i61.tinypic.com/2vn06qc.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i60.tinypic.com/29ek70j.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i59.tinypic.com/negb4j.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i61.tinypic.com/33k9ixz.jpg[/img]

Took 3 posts to get all the photos in.

I could see how it might be hard to see a filled and checkered hole in the forend but if you can't see the barrel channel and sight boss filled in then you need to put your check book away for at least a year before buying any M70 until you can spot such an obvious fake! Again I hear a lot of "he said, she said" or "a friend of a friend" about fake stocks but I've never seen anyone post a picture of one. I think some people are so scared of fakes that if it isn't a standard grade 30/06 they don't believe anything is original.

Great job on the photos!! You did very well. I can see the rifle better now. That's a beauty and looks to be all original except for maybe the free floating and Aluminum butt plate? That one still has me stumped. Generally in late production, they would have used the composite butt plates. It looks like it may also be glass bedded?? Again, a beautiful rifle sir. Thanks for taking the time to post the pics..

It sure isn't very beat up.

Reelman, a guy could do a good cover up and take wood away from the whole barrel channel like what has been done to the OP's rifle. Make it look like a nice freefloat job and you are done. Plug the hole and checker the forend. I've also seen guys that can do this type of work. Trust me, they are out there. Also, these SG's generally have very pronounced bolt jeweling. Some guys can look at the bolt jeweling and tell you if it's been done at the wichester custom shop (back in the day). This one does not have that. The OP also never answered (that I'm aware of) my question about stampings on the bottom of the barrel and recoil lug. It should be stamped "SUPER" on the bottom of the barrel near the chambering stamp and also should have a backwards S stamped into the bottom of the recoil lug. Does it have these stampings??? Again, I'll ask the question. I'd also like to see pictures of the barrel channel and glass bedding work. I'm not trying to be a "nay sayer", but you got reelman who thinks every supergrade around is true and original. This is not the case and people need to be made aware of the fakes. I'm definitely not saying this is a fake either. It's a beautiful rifle and one I'd be proud to own. However, it's here and the OP doesn't seem to mind showing us pictures of his rifle. Let's look it over real good if he doesn't mind.. Thanks..

The only thing that can explain the plate not being composite is the fact it is a special order. Just a guess naturally as none of us were there.

One thought comes to mind in late production guns is the fact that there are often many left over parts from earlier production guns. In factory guns, there are many late productions sent with early production parts just to clear the inventory of parts.

Winchester having left over aluminum BP's does not seem to far fetched to me.

I'd still like to see the underside of the barrel without the stock.
The barrel channel has been opened up.
Should the bolt and follower be jeweled?
I'd almost think that it should be.

I hit on those same things in my previous posts...

BSA. In regards to the bolt, I have been told by folks that I have high respect for in Winchester knowledge that late production model did not have jeweled bolts.

Would you mind sharing the reference books you use to make your acknowledgements?

Mr. Green. The composite butt plates were crap to put it lightly. They cracked over time. I've actually inletted stocks for the aluminum butt plates myself because of this. It's been done by my smith as well. A good preventative measure and the aluminum plate will last forever.. If you don't mind, I think a few of us would like to see some pics of the bottom of the barreled action where the supergrade stamps should be. Could you also show us the stock's barrel channel and glass bedding? Thanks..

Rules book. States that the bolts were jeweled and "it was a common cosmetic treatment for supergrade rifles after 1954". Page 175. Please don't tell me you don't have the rifleman's rifle book written by Roger C. Rule... Also trust me when I say this, I don't get all of my information from this book. I also know people that know people

There is a pic of a late SG Fwt. (p. 232 in Rule) without jeweling....agree that the barrel channel is not right.

Not trying to step on any toes here gentlemen but rather confirming my agreement with your own observations BSA.
The underside barrel stamps or lack of will go a long ways in this discussion.
One other observation regarding the butt plate.
Does anyone else find it odd that the only marks on the finish appear fresh around the screws while the rest of it hasn't incurred a single mark since 1962?

BSA, by no stretch am I saying every rifle represented as a SG really is one but I've yet to see a SG Featherweight stock that has been faked, not saying they aren't out there but I can't imagine being able to fill in a sight boss that perfect that I couldn't tell it was filled in (especially considering we would know right where to critically inspect it). If it was hogged out to free float it enough that the boss inletting was in line with the barrel channel it would look like a truck could drive between the barrel and stock. I would love to see one of these SG rifles that everyone always talks about.

I'd love to see pictures of the underside of the barreled action.. I think Popgun would also like to see it. I'm sure it has the correct stampings, but my curiosity has gotten the best of me.. Jeweling or no jeweling, one thing is for sure it should be stamped "SUPER" and have the reversed "S" on the bottom of the recoil lug..

Reelman, I know you have a supergrade and you like to defend each and every one of them. I personally will never own one..

I'll never own a super grade simply because I can't afford one. But that would be the ultimate pre-'64, to me.

Can't beat a nice Super Grade....

Nice Super Grade????

Not a SG expert buy any means, but here is my take even if it is authentic. Poorly done cheekpiece, screws not timed, screw ends not flush with metal where they protrude, wood to metal fit not all that great-check out the trigger guard for one glaring example-finish nothing to get excited about nor is the wood anything special along with a hogged out free float. However, a little extra in the free float is not a bad thing. Stick with the run of mill FWT, because there is little custom that I can see with the exception of swivels and a black nose.

Wasn't talking about this gun....

I've looked at others and there are not any significant differences. If this one is authentic it is representative of the standard.

Not everyone of them, I really have to question the SG National Match that has been pictured here quite a bit.

I'll throw in my .02 cents for exactly what it's worth.
Turning a regular pre-64 SG stock into a pre-64 SG FWT stock is pointless. You could never match the barrel channels as already pointed out.
I also think that any stock maker who could turn a standard Pre-64 FWT stock into a FWT Pre-64 Super Grade stock would be the most talented SOB that God ever stuffed guts into.
If such a person exists he would not have to alter existing FWT stocks because he'd be too damn busy to mess with shady stuff like that.
Not to mention it would be easier starting with a XXX walnut blank rather than the plain grade stuff in existing old FWT stocks.
JMHO and worth exactly what you paid for it.

Not only that but how does that explain the sightless barrel? Is that custom made with Winchester stamps on it to perfect specifications? This would require both a wood and metal master.

I know BSA wants me to take it apart for the barrel stamp. I have never detail stripped a model 70 and I am not personally going to risk even lightly scratching or messing this up.

I know that I dont need to as the idea that this is not from the factory is silly. It's not like I bought this out of a pawn shop or some dude on the street in a trench coat.This came out of one of the most respected model 70 collections around.

Naturally I could be blind. I do respect people that are able to reference facts in publication to support thought.

Seriously, I hope it is legit. But removing the stock from a Model 70 involves 3 screws and one is already buggered.

Take it to a trusted gunsmith and let him remove the stock to check the barrel underside markings. Hopefully Super or an S is inscribed. You are the only person I know who would buy a rifle like this without removing the stock....

As for it being a made-up gun did it ever occur to anyone that a real SG FW stock and floorplate could be installed on a Gopher Special? The lack of an engine turned bolt and follower makes me very suspicious about the authenticity of this rifle.

Just because someone who collected 70s had it means nothing without factory provenance accompanying the gun.

Mr. Green here's what I see with that rifle and a damn fine looking rifle it is.

From the elite collector viewpoint if you ever re-sell it and at some point every one of our rifles change hands as none of us live forever, here's the questions that need answering.

Is the stock an original? From what I see I'd say yes.
Has it been altered? No question there. The barrel channel has been opened up.
Regarding the barrel....
Is it a late model Super Grade rifle or a one off parts gun?
Seeing the underside of the barrel would help with that provided it is stamped and the stamps match what we'd see on a late model SG rifle.
It's not just BSA curious about the barrel stamp as I believe that was my first question upon seeing it and if I was buying it it would have been my first, second and third questions.

The rifle has worn a scope in the past indicating at least limited use. (You can see the marks on the top of the receiver from what I'd guess is a Redfield JR type base. Also 3 of the 4 filler screws are missing and left open.
In my opinion the butt plate has been recently removed and re-finished.
Should the bolt be jeweled is open to question.
If it's been assembled as a late, late custom order the equipment to jewel the bolts and followers may have already been set aside or de-mobilized.

I don't mean to be critical of your rifle but examples like this are exactly why I love our hobby.

Hit quote and look close from the swivel screw to the cap.

[/quote] [/quote]

Good catch Battue. I'm assuming you are looking at the hairline crack?
The closeup also shows what appears to be flathead profile screws.
Those should be oval head or at least all older SG's I've seen exhibited oval head profiled "timed" screws.

SG stocks are "oversized" compared to standard stocks so again if someone couldn't notice the difference they should not be buying any M70's!

Looks like a small crack from here. Nothing that couldn't be fixed.

There isn't a timed screw on the rifle, but I've seen others that were the same.

SG screws were not timed on p64s. The flathead screws don't look right and there's definately a crack.

PG-check your PMs.

And the screws on the rear swivel are not the same as the ones on the front.

Taking down and getting pictures now.

Thanks to all that comment.

No need to post pictures. BSA was spot on. No Super Grade underneath. Bedded stock. All the detects were right.

I have a crow in my garage, just turned the fryer on.

Thoughts on how bad my investment was?

Expensive lesson

I paid 2k for it.

The action and barrel are like new and not refinished. What is the action and barrel worth? What is the stock worth?

What is it all worth?

At two grand you did fine. Hunt the heck out of it.

Do all the components have matching serial #'s?

Bolt matches the the receiver. Where else do I check?