Doubt if the case is problematic. I have a 340 that shoots the 125 Nosler BT better than it should. Killed many crows and ground hogs past 300 yards. Trigger job would help immensely.
Worst detriment to accuracy with the 340 is the single lug on the bolt. Wasn't meant to be a hot-rod.
I have a Ruger 1B that started life as a .223 and is now a .225 Winchester. It flat out shoots 55 gr Hornady and Varget. Cases were sized as per Tex n Cal directions. Will be trying it at 300 and 400 yd once the snow goes.
The Zipper sucks that's why the 219 Donaldson Wasp was invented.
There were lots of Zippers built on Krags also the 25 Krag. A better choice was and is a highwall.
If you don't have every book written by Charles Landis in your library you are missing a lot.
The 22 HP also sucked especially the silly .228 bullet and tapered case designed to increase bolt thrust on an action that was already springy.
Landis is why I own a R.F. Sedgley 22-06 fast twist that with today's powders and super bullets is killing machine long after a Swift or 22-250 has died.
The only equal modern cartridge is the 22/244 IMP which has the advantage of a shorter powder column.
BTW all cartridges with a shoulder should headspace on the shoulder.
Rims were for cartridges with no real shoulders and belts were H&Hs brilliant design to allow cartridges to be made undersized so they would always feed in cordite fouled, dirty and even rusty chambers and still have something to headspace on.
IMHO a 500 book library on guns and shooting is far better than 10 gunsafes stuffed with 500 guns.
If you built a top grade single shot target rifle using the 300 flanged (rimmed 300 H&H) you would be at no disadvantage against rimless or belted cartridge rifles.
Remember though, when Charles Newton designed the .22 HiPower, .228" .22 bullets were the norm in the couple of lonely .22CF cartridges on the market. It wasn't until experimenters started messing with .22RF barrels for the purpose of CF wildcats that .223/.224" bullets became the norm. That and the early experiments by Niedner where he went straight to .224s after a brief dalliance with .228s. Within its design limitations, the Savage .22HP, and its virtual twin the .219 Zipper, are ok. It's when guys try to make them into something they aren't is when they start to suck. (For example, I feed three .22HP barrels, and I shoot probably 20 cast bullets for every jacketed one thus avoiding a lot of the angst associated with the round.)
I've been reading Landis for 45 years, and have every book he wrote.
Definitely the best (for my purposes of groundhog shooting out to 3-350 yards) .22CF rig I ever owned was a .219 Wasp (later design) heavy barreled HiWall, built by Jerry Gebby. I fed loads through that thing that would have caused a Savage 340 to excuse itself and go take a powder.
For the uninformed: the .22-06 wasn't simply a .30-06 case necked down to .22. The case was shortened in the process, looking much like a 7x57 necked to .22. Remember empty gov't '06 brass 70 years ago could be had for about $1/bushel basket full, so a lot of wildcats had -06 in their name.
I still have a secret urge to build a .22 Marciante Blue Streak (.22HP case blown out to the max, essentially), based solely on reading Landis. (But I wouldn't build it on a Savage 340!) Crazy printed velocities (to be taken with a grain of salt), but he did name it after the blue-gray trace the bullets left behind them in flight- probably melting cores in those early crappy bullets.
The only Krag .22CF I have is a heavy barreled single shot Krag built by Hervey Lovell, in .22 Maximum Lovell, marksman stock, box magazine removed, double set triggers. Is it ideal? No, but I didn't build it. I wanted it for its provenance, but it turns out to be a sweet shooter.
Last edited by gnoahhh; 03/02/15.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz "Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
I have built semi-serious target rifles chambered for some rimmed cartridges. In some cases I headspaced on the rim; in other cases I headspaced on the shoulder. When I headspaced on the rim, I uniformed rim thickness to within .0005" and chambered the rifle with .001" clearance. This seemed to work about the same as headspacing on the shoulder but was more trouble and, therefor, more elegant! Rifles included a 788 chambered for the 219 Wasp. A Ruger 77 Chambered for the 30/40 Krag, a P14 in 303 British, a Remington 40X in 30/30, and a P14 in 30/40. The 30/40 Ruger and the 303 P14 were both solid 3/8 moa performers. The jury is still out on the 40X in 30/30 but I have high hopes for it. I shot the 303 P14 to second place in a highly competitive 300 Meter "F" class match. In doing so, I beat a whole bunch of 6 BR's so it shot pretty good. I shot the same rifle out to 600 meters and it was absolutely competitive with any .308 at the same ranges. One thing that I have noticed in the rifles chambered for the rimmed cases is that they can be loaded pretty hot with no ill effects. I had no trouble exceeding 2750 FPS in the 303 with 174's. Likewise, I could easily reach 2700 with 180's in the 30/40 with no ill effects. Given the capacities of the two cases, the pressures had to be high. By the way, the 219 on the 788 was not quite competitive as a LV rifle and shot no better than about .350 moa. I re-barreled it to 6 PPC. I have always intended to try another 219 on a good BR action but this may never happen. GD
Anyway, are rimmed high velocity cartridges at a disadvantage by design compared to their shouldered head-space brethren?
I'm not sure where you're drawing the line when you define high velocity, but my .22 Hornet hits 3K with a 40 gr Vmax and if the rim is hurting it's accuracy, I sure can't tell.
Anyway, for the rest of the "build just because" folks, can anyone advise if the Remington 788 bolt heads are interchangeable? I can't remember if they are one piece.
Since the left hand 788's were left bolt, right eject, IIRC, can a RH bolt head from a 30-30 be used on a LH action?
The 788 is a fairly stout action for a zipper/wasp.
They are one piece, like a 700 bolt without front lugs.
Regarding accuracy, just ignore the rim and size cases to headspace on the shoulder.
+1 on the Hornet accuracy. Mine is in a Ruger #1, and I only neck size the fired cases; it shoots tiny bughole groups.
Regarding accuracy, just ignore the rim and size cases to headspace on the shoulder.
Good advice.
The rimmed feature of the case is a product of it's era, and the type of weapons it was used in. Remington modernized it with the .30 Remington, and the rimless feature, to my knowledge, adds no accuracy edge. It is beneficial to feeding in certain magazine types where the cartridges stack on top of each other rather than end-to-end.
That ability opens up your choice in bullet selection, which is a huge contributor to long range capability, along with the ability of the rifle itself to be accurate.
I have often considered a bolt-action .30-30 just to enjoy the versatility of one over my M94 Winchester, which obviously is limited to FN bullets.
I don't believe the 788 for rimmed cartridges has a one piece bolt. I think they had a non-rotating head. The 219 Wasp I built was on a 308 action and I turned the rims to fit. I headspaced on the shoulder on this one. GD
I don't believe the 788 for rimmed cartridges has a one piece bolt. I think they had a non-rotating head.
Huh, just looked up some pictures, and you're right, they are a different bolt than the other 788's (except maybe the 44?). Looks like a little roll pin must slide in a channel in the action to keep the head straight. Thanks, I learned something for the day!
The 219 Wasp is a shortened and blown out Zipper. In fact, apart from the rim, the 219 Donaldson Wasp is remarkably similar to the 22 PPC. Guys tended to load it HOT! GD
I am friends with one of the worlds most accurate rifle builders. In his opinion, there are only two real factures to accuracy...consistency and crown. Take that for what it's worth.
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
