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OP
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Recently saw a post regarding Deep Curls and pressure spikes. Is that the reason they were discontinued?
I have found the 257, 120gr DCs to be exceedingly accurate in several rifles. As a result, I stocked up when I heard they were being discontinued. Probably have a lifetime supply.
I have seen nothing unusual to date. Do I need to be concerned?
Also, this bullet has the boron nitride coating. Is this coating lessen the pressure spikes (assuming they occur) or does it aggravate the problem?
Thanks in advance....
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Do you know why they were discontinued? I didn't get the memo.
What fresh Hell is this?
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I never saw that they gave a reason. Really strange deal. They initially announced the new DC line of bullets with great fanfare, stated that over the next couple of years the DCs would replace the Hot Core line. Then, about a year and a half into the project, they suddenly reversed their course, discontinued the DCs, and started making the Hot Cores again.
It was not unlike what they did with the Deep Shock bullet line a decade before. Makes you wonder who's driving the train at Speer and if they have a clue what they are doing.
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Campfire Kahuna
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The reason they dropped the DeepShock is the bullets were originally planned as a relatively inexpensive bullet with premium performance. They got the performance right, but as it turned out the bullets couldn't be mass-produced inexpensively.
Have told this story before, but a few months before DeepCurls were announced, a bunch of gun writers were invited on a tour of the Speer and CCI factories in Idaho. When we got there, more than one person took us aside and asked us to please plead with the Speer PR guy, who'd come up with the name DeepCurl and was determined to use it even though hardly anybody else liked it.
The DeepCurls were essentially Federal Fusions for handloaders, which had been a big hit in factory ammo and were getting good name recognition. It made some sense to just announce Fusions as component bullets, but Speer (understandably) wanted them to be known as Spoeer bullets, not Federal bullets. Obviously it didn't work, partly because the DeepCurls that appeared ended up being somewhat more expensive than the Hot-Cors they replaced.
Plus, many handloaders, especially those that like saving money, prefer using the same old components, even if they've actually changed over the years (as many "same old products" have been, without any publicity). Aside from price, DeepCurls often didn't come in the same weights as the Hot-Cors, and the pressure characteristics were different. Loyal Hot-Cor fans (apparently there are many) either had to use time, powder and primers working up new loads, or switch to other brands of bullets of the same weight/diameter that cost less. Many apparently did.
Another factor may have been that many handloaders heard the word "bonded" and, combined with the name, assumed DeepCurls would penetrate deeply. But they weren't super-deep penetrating--like some other wide-expanding bonded bullets.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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I used the bullets on whitetails and was quite pleased with their performance. They might not have been a true bigger game bullet, but they work/worked on deer size game just fine.
But so does the Hot Core and a bunch of other bullets.
I enjoy handguns and I really like shotguns,...but I love rifles!
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I have used the Deep Curls in the 6mm Remington, .270 Winchester, and 7x61 Sharpe & Hart. Bullets have been accurate in the 6mm Rem. and exceedingly accurate in the other two with minimal load workup.
The 90 gr. 6mm bullets measured .243" in diameter, as most .243 bullets do. The 150 gr. .270 bullets were much closer to .278" than the more common .277". 160 gr. 7mm Deep Curls were almost .285" instead of .284". How much difference, if any, this larger diameter makes in relation to pressure, I have no idea. However, one can definitely feel the difference when seating these oversized bullets after seating regular diameter bullets for the same cartridge.
The factory warning in the Deep Curl boxes does mention using only data developed for these bullets. However, I never found much data and was pretty much on my own as for load development.
I've had these bullets several years; perhaps the oversized ones were from early production and the diameters were later reduced. I'm not complaining as these fat bullets really shoot well, but I was extra careful with load workup.
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The reason they dropped the DeepShock is the bullets were originally planned as a relatively inexpensive bullet with premium performance. They got the performance right, but as it turned out the bullets couldn't be mass-produced inexpensively.
Have told this story before, but a few months before DeepCurls were announced, a bunch of gun writers were invited on a tour of the Speer and CCI factories in Idaho. When we got there, more than one person took us aside and asked us to please plead with the Speer PR guy, who'd come up with the name DeepCurl and was determined to use it even though hardly anybody else liked it.
The DeepCurls were essentially Federal Fusions for handloaders, which had been a big hit in factory ammo and were getting good name recognition. It made some sense to just announce Fusions as component bullets, but Speer (understandably) wanted them to be known as Spoeer bullets, not Federal bullets. Obviously it didn't work, partly because the DeepCurls that appeared ended up being somewhat more expensive than the Hot-Cors they replaced.
Plus, many handloaders, especially those that like saving money, prefer using the same old components, even if they've actually changed over the years (as many "same old products" have been, without any publicity). Aside from price, DeepCurls often didn't come in the same weights as the Hot-Cors, and the pressure characteristics were different. Loyal Hot-Cor fans (apparently there are many) either had to use time, powder and primers working up new loads, or switch to other brands of bullets of the same weight/diameter that cost less. Many apparently did.
Another factor may have been that many handloaders heard the word "bonded" and, combined with the name, assumed DeepCurls would penetrate deeply. But they weren't super-deep penetrating--like some other wide-expanding bonded bullets.
JB I've shot a lot of the Deepcurl bullets, one thing that I have noticed is that difference from the Fusions is the Deepcurl is an indented flatbase bullet and the Fusion is a boatail design. Are they the same bullet other than the base design??
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The reason they dropped the DeepShock is the bullets were originally planned as a relatively inexpensive bullet with premium performance. They got the performance right, but as it turned out the bullets couldn't be mass-produced inexpensively.
Have told this story before, but a few months before DeepCurls were announced, a bunch of gun writers were invited on a tour of the Speer and CCI factories in Idaho. When we got there, more than one person took us aside and asked us to please plead with the Speer PR guy, who'd come up with the name DeepCurl and was determined to use it even though hardly anybody else liked it.
The DeepCurls were essentially Federal Fusions for handloaders, which had been a big hit in factory ammo and were getting good name recognition. It made some sense to just announce Fusions as component bullets, but Speer (understandably) wanted them to be known as Spoeer bullets, not Federal bullets. Obviously it didn't work, partly because the DeepCurls that appeared ended up being somewhat more expensive than the Hot-Cors they replaced.
Plus, many handloaders, especially those that like saving money, prefer using the same old components, even if they've actually changed over the years (as many "same old products" have been, without any publicity). Aside from price, DeepCurls often didn't come in the same weights as the Hot-Cors, and the pressure characteristics were different. Loyal Hot-Cor fans (apparently there are many) either had to use time, powder and primers working up new loads, or switch to other brands of bullets of the same weight/diameter that cost less. Many apparently did.
Another factor may have been that many handloaders heard the word "bonded" and, combined with the name, assumed DeepCurls would penetrate deeply. But they weren't super-deep penetrating--like some other wide-expanding bonded bullets.
MD: thanks for the info. So am I to understand that there is not a concern with pressure spikes with the DCs?
Last edited by southtexas; 03/01/15.
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Campfire Kahuna
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3338rcm,
Yes, other than the base they're very similar.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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You would think that, having gone to the expense of developing the line and advertising it, they would have given it a chance to catch on. Expensive Nosler and Barnes bullets seem to sell pretty well.
I like the notion of the plated jacket. Remington Power-Lokt bullets are thought to be pretty accurate I've heard, and the Gold Dots pistol slugs are well regarded (and hard to find).
Thanks, JB.
What fresh Hell is this?
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southtexas,
The term "pressure spikes" is thrown around a lot, often without any definition.
When lab ballisticians talk about pressure spikes, they usually mean single instances of unexpectedly high pressures. Say they're testing a new load in the .243 Winchester, and several shots peak at around 58,000 PSI, and the next shot with the identical load shows 65,000 PSI. That's a pressure spike.
I don't know how "pressure spike" is being used in connection with DeepCurls, but suspect they simply develop more pressure than most other bullets of the same weight and diameter, in particular Hot-Cors. This is substantiated by Speer's own emphasis on using ONLY data specifically for DeepCurls. As a result, when somebody uses a load worked up for the same weight/diameter bullet of Hot-Cor, they'd probably see signs of high pressure.
Not every shot of a higher-pressure load always shows signs of high pressure. I've seen two rounds of a certain load fire with completely normal "pressure signs"--except for a very high chronograph reading. Then the third round blew a primer. It was discovered the loads had 5 grains more powder than normal, due to a mixup with the powder scale. Was the third shot a "pressure spike"? No, it was just the first shot that showed a traditional pressure sign. If the handloader hadn't thought the chronograph was having a bad morning, due to the sun's angle or whatever, he would have known something was up before the third shot blew a primer.
I seriously doubt DeepCurls cause pressure spikes, but am certain they produce more pressure than some other bullets, because all designs of rifle bullets produce more less pressure than other designs, everything else being equal.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Ok. Thank you very much for your thoughtful response
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It has been a bizarre marketing strategy for sure.
I quite like all the Speer products I've used, mostly Hot Cors and BTSPs. For some reason of late however their price has crept up a bit here and now the competing products from Sierra and Hornady are cheaper.
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I can say some of the deepcurls I've bought are slightly over normal diameter too.
I keep this in mind when working up loads.
Trying for that last 50-75 fps isn't something I do with them!
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Do I need to be concerned? Yes. Concerned at Speer's propensity to create an excellent product & then discontinue it for no apparent reason.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
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Roger that!
Last edited by southtexas; 03/04/15.
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I cant speak to the terminal characteristics or increased pressures of Deep Curls, but in my 338 WM they were incredibly accurate bullets. Even more accurate than TTSX's.
I never hunted with them, but they were nice for reloading for range shooting as they were about the cheapest bullets out there. I think they were even cheaper than the 225 Hot Cores, IIRC.
Good info MD, thanks for the detailed responses.
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... because all designs of rifle bullets produce more less pressure than other designs, everything else being equal. John, the thought occurs to me that the pressure characteristics of various makes/designs of bullets would make for a very interesting and informative article, perhaps even a book. Best, John
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