Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Second Amendment CCW and Dropped Guns

RAM,
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<br>The to incidents that got me thinking about this thread happened in Indianapolis. One in Castleton Square Mall. When the CCW GA sat down in the Food Court to have his lunch the back of the chair knocked his gun out on to the floor which caused it to discharge. Unfortunately the newsie didn't see fit to ask the paramount question. What type and make of gun was it?
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<br>The other incident occurred near the same time and I do not remember the details or where. Both incidents were reported in the Indianapolis Star and on local TV news.
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<br>From what I see for sale at the gun shows and on the shelves at my local gun dealer there are lots of guns out there that will go bang when dropped if not properly loaded by the CCW GA. NAA sells a bunch of useless (IMHO) small .22 LR and .22 Mag 5-shot revolvers. If the CCW GA isn't smart enough to put the hammer in the safety notch-Kablam!! if dropped.
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<br>Lots of little .22 and .25 single action striker fired pot metal being sold. If carried with a round in the chamber an accidental discharge is possible.
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<br>Yes the Majors have made their guns more idiot-proof but believe me the idiots will prevail.
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<br>If I were a dealer I'd certainly clean the junque out of my stock and only sell guns with proper safety designed in.
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<br>There is some argument that firing pin safeties effect the trigger pull. I don't doubt this but a carry gun without a firing pin safety is a potential disaster waiting to happen.
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<br>Personally the four makes of semiautos I have all have trigger safeties including two Kimber II's. I cannot tell that these triggers are any different that older guns without trigger safeties.
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<br>Windy aren't I?
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<br>Norm
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<br>Norm

I have both, 1911 pre 70 Colts as well as early 50's and 60' "D" frame revolvers. I then go on to a couple S&W "K" frames with the hammer block feature as well as an early 39-2 and a 6906 of later manufacture. They all work well when your brain is engaged, no amount of "idiot proofing" will keep an idiot from screwing up! Lets face it, the most importent safety item is between your ears, not on the firearm.

T LEE,
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<br>I couldn't agree with you more.
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<br>But idiots will buy guns and carry them. And even not so dumb people will do dumb things like drop a gun.
<br>All guns sold today should be drop proof with a round chambered. The only thing that should be able to make a gun go "BANG!" is pulling the trigger.
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<br>Selling less that safe guns indicates to me that the dealer doesn't understand that people might drop them or carry them with a round chambered when they shouldn't or that he doesn't care.
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<br>At a bear minimum they should hang a sign on each gun in the display cabinet "UNSAFE FOR CARRY WITH A ROUND CHAMBERED."
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<br>Now back down off my soap box.
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<br>Norm

I am sorry, but I am fed up with people excusing responsability with government regulation and "idiot proof" add on's to mechanical devices of any kind. We need people to return to self responsability rather than fitting crutches to all even if they don't need them.
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<br>I am tired of adding "safety" devices to replace education and knowledge. Training is more important IMHO. Heck, Idiots still have access to kitchen knives and automobiles and kill themselves and others with such items. What would you have us do about that?
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<br>OK, off my soap box as well.

I gotta hang with T LEE on this one.
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<br>There's more than enough government regulation on our lives and properties now without adding more.
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<br>The world can't be idiot proofed, and the herd needs to be culled.
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<br>Unfrotunately there may be some tradegies of innocents as the idiots eliminate themselves, but that is the price I am willing to pay to be free.
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<br>Idiots drive cars, pry with screw drivers, drink too much, smoke, operate machinery, bash thumbs with hammers, get fish hooks in themselves and others, cut themselves, etc. etc. etc.
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<br>You can't legislate common sence, don't try.

T LEE,
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<br>Actually I don't think we are too far apart on this. My unfortunate use of the term "idiot proof" was not exactly what I meant.
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<br>I don't want gun locks built in or stuff like that. I just
<br>think that guns that can discharge when dropped are a problem for we Americans who are struggling to keep our gun rights.
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<br>Or to say it another way, gun manfuactureres should certify that the firearms they manufacture will not discharge when dropped.
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<br>I appreaciate your comments. You usually have a good measure of common sense.
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<br>Thanks,
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<br>Norm
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T LEE, I accidentally addressed a response to me and not to you.
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<br>N

RAM,
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<br>As I just stated to T LEE I really don't want guns idiot proofed since that could lead to all sorts of problems.
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<br>People will continue to drop guns. At a minimum gun manufactures should certify that their guns will not discharge when dropped. These manufacturers generally do that now.
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<br>What do we do with the guys who make guns of unsafe design?
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<br>What do we do if someone carries a striker fired pot metal .25 ACP with a round in the chamber?
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<br>I'm open to suggestion. But if too many CCW GA's drop their guns in public and these guns discharge we could be in for a bunch of restrictions we don't want.
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<br>Norm

Thanks, I think. My contention is you aren't suppose to drop firearms. And most won't discharge unless they land just right any way. We tried to make a number of handguns fire primed cases in testing for new issue for our dept back in the 70's. Unless dropped from inordinate heights, even 1911 pattern guns as well as ALL revolvers tested would not go off. The 1911 and BHP guns would if they landed straight up and down on the muzzle from fifteen (15) FEET at minumim. The S & W, Colt and Ruger revolvers would not, they would not go off if dropped on their hammers either, many of the Colt and Smith's were the earlier type with hammer mounted firing pins BTW. We actually had two Smiths and one Ruger have the hammer break off, still without firing the primer.
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<br>Some Ravens and Jennings as well as a sample of other confiscated el cheapo's WOULD, from as little as 3 feet however. The derringers of Remington pattern were the worst offenders by far. Even my Colt Model "N" wouldn't AD with the safety off or on!
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<br>All guns were dropped on concrete and asphalt surfaces with no padding (I had to recrown my personal Colt).

T LEE,
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<br>The thanks was warranted. My comments were meant to be conciliatory. From your posts I have learned to respect your positions.
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<br>And even here I understand your position but think selling a little of our souls for a greater good is prudent.
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<br>"My contention is you aren't suppose to drop firearms."
<br>OK we are 100% in agreement. I think the guys that recently dropped their guns in Indy and had them go off will also agree. But the guns were dropped and discharged.
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<br>And as you pointed out "And most won't discharge unless they land just right any way. . . ." These are the quality guns.
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<br>"Some Ravens and Jennings as well as a sample of other confiscated el cheapo's WOULD, from as little as 3 feet however. The derringers of Remington pattern were the worst offenders by far."
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<br>Oh yes here we are. What do we with the el cheapos?
<br>As for me I'd outlaw them. Better outlaw the el cheapos than lose the righ to carry all together.
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<br>"All guns were dropped on concrete and asphalt surfaces with no padding (I had to recrown my personal Colt)." Now that's dedication. I'm not sure I'd put one of my pieces into that test arena.
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<br>I'm not sure what's all bad about mandating automatic firing pin locks in semiautomatics. I had a friend who is in the final days of a 30 year career as a deputy sheriff including 8 years as high sheriff. In Jim's early days he dropped his S&W M39 from waist high. The 39 landed on its muzzle and went "Kaboom." Jim believed in carrying his 39 with the safety off. Not a bad position for a person who just might need to return fire on a moments notice. Had the early model 39's firing pin lock safeties the gun would not have discharge scaring Jim and the lady motorist he was talking to at the time.
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<br>I would be an ideal world if we could count on our fellow CCW folks to do the right thing. In Indiana there is no training requirement for CCW since it is a right under the Indiana constitution. That means the ignorant are still ignorant when they get their little pink card in the mail.
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<br>Respectfully submitted rebuttal.
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<br>Norm
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Deputy Norm,
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<br>Your either a troll, or a closet socialist liberal.
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<br>"as for me I'ld outlaw them"
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<br>There are a bizzilion gun laws on the books of this nation and the nation isn't idiot proofed yet. And you want to add more laws, this time to limit free enterprize.
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<br>Who determines what's safe? Who and how do you put these "unsafe manufacturers out of business? Oh! you don't put them out of business? the government will just control them??? Sounds like communism to me.
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<br>Let the market control itself. If a company has an inferior product they lose market share and $$$$. They are in business to profit, so THEY will change themselves.
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<br>If a gun is dropped and an innocent is hurt or killed, there are legal remidies ALREADY in place to deal with the situation. Sue the responsible party. The IDIOT who dropped his gun.

I gotta plead ignorance. Norm, explain this "...When the CCW GA sat down in the Food Court to have his lunch the back of the chair ...."
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<br>What the #@!#$ is a CCW GA? and how did you use this ....as a noun??
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<br>CCW to me = Concealed Carry Weapon (adjective)
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<br>I have no idea what you mean by "GA"
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<br>And grammaticly if my understanding of CCW is correct it ...............just explain it to me. Maybe it will help me to try to understand where your coming from.

Sorry RAM,
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<br>I meant a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun.
<br>In Indiana that's all an unlimited handgun license authorizes.
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<br>N

RAM,
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<br>I'll have to admit to being a troll. My politics are to the right of Atilla the Hun.
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<br>And OUTLAW scares me too. BUT . . . . .
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<br>I don't want idiots with guns that go off when dropped
<br>to cost me my rights.
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<br>OK what do you suggest? These two incidents where civilians licensed to carry concealed handguns and dropped them resulting in discharges with one injury
<br>resulted in a flury of bad press. It could have been worse it seems that only the local antigunners wrote letters to their state legislators and local newspapers.
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<br>The guns they carried were unsafe for untrained persons to carry. As a trained person if I only had a striker fired semiauto without a trigger safety that I got for $49 or a pot metal derringer that cost me as much I'd have no rounds under the firing pin. With the semiauto that means empty chamber and with the el cheapo derringer that means empty.
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<br>Actually I would carry neither and opt for a bigger knife
<br>and running shoes.
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<br>I am just thinking that if nothing is done by the shooters, sellers, and manufacturers of firearms the state will step in and do it for us in a way that we will not exactly like.
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<br>It is my opinion that since we license everyone who applies for a license guns should be "drop proof." The question remains how do we get there?
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<br>Clearly since these things are still for sale at guns shows and on the shelves of some dealers self-regulation is not working.
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<br>Again what do you suggest?
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<br>Norm

Norm,
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<br>I would MUCH rather see the CCW holders demonstrate safe handlng and profeciency than add all the Jim cracks and gegaws to the tool. Much like driving, one must demonstrate a minimum of proficiency with the tools to be certified. Common sense cannot be taught , I know, but even the slowest of us are trainable to a degree. I find this approach better than placing such restrictions on manufactures that firearms are priced out of reach of those that need them the most.
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<br>As to dedication in dropping my Colt, I wanted it certified so I could keep carring it as BUG and off duty. Quite selfish in motivation I assure you.

Norm, much better to allow the civil law (tort) system to take care of it. If, when my Model 60 popped out of my cheapo IWB 20 years ago, it went off (it didn't, thank God), then the appropriate action would have been for the injured party (low probability anyone would be injured) to sue my but off. They would lose, because I used the product properly, and the product failed. They could then take their suit to the manufacturor of the IWB holster for selling me a defective product. This results in two things. Firstly, I will never again use a cheapo IWB, and will switch to an auto pistol, which is less likely to wriggle out of an IWB, and Secondly, the manufacturer of the cheapo IWB will either go out of business or produce a product that will not allow a Model 60 to wriggle out of it when properly used. They could also sue the gun manufacturer for making a product that goes off when dropped. We cannot have a perfectly safe society. Well, we can, but it's called tyranny. Much better to have a society where everyone is held individually accountable for their individual negligences. This is the best comprimise that allows both freedom and relative safety in the same environment.

T LEE,
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<br>Yes training is paramount. Trained people make fewer mistakes.
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<br>As far as raising costs this is also a concern.
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<br>My concern remains firearms that are not drop proof.
<br>The trigger or grip safety (as in Kimber II's) activated
<br>firepin safety devices are one way of reducing discharge if dropped.
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<br>Double action revolvers have met this criteria for many years. I seldom go into a gun shop and don't see a used Taurus in the $150 price range.
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<br>Thanks,
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<br>Norm

"My concern remains firearms that are not drop proof."
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<br>Neither are eggs, wine glasses or babies.
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<br>Are we gonna outlaw them too?
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<br>What you seem to be missing Norm, is it is not the object. It is the careless act of an individule.
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<br>Its like when you were a kid, and your Mom said, "no grape juice in the living room" why? cuz YOU were irresponsible and would spill it on her rug. (do they make stain free grape juice? no.)
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<br>Hopefully you matured and out grew that.
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<br>As to dropping of your weapon - apply the same principal.

RAM, I agree with you.
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<br>Careless individuals are the problem. Hell I carelessly dropped a loaded gun in a squad room in 1968. I knew better. I had been trained that it was a bad thing to drop a gun. I was a Distinguished Expert. But I had a lapse. The gun, a quality piece from S&W didn't discharge. Thirty four year later and still carrying handguns I have yet to drop one a second time.
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<br>A respondent to this thread stated that during tests it was the "el cheapo" handguns that were the problem during drop tests. Dropped guns discharging in public will put pressure on our legislators to "do something about it."
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<br>I asked you "What do you suggest?" I think your suggestion is to do nothing to prevent accidental discharges caused by defective firearms being dropped.
<br>Is that your suggestion?
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<br>Accidents happen. Just drive by a junk yard. People know not to have accidents but sill have them.
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<br>Since I cannot convince you and you certainly cannot convice me. I say end it here. You can have the last word. I just ask think about it.
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<br>The Troll.

TRH,
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<br>What about state legislators using these accidents to reduce our gun rights? What about the person who catches a slug in the head from a dropped gun?
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<br>Why not insist that guns be drop proof? All quality makers guns do not discharge when dropped. Why
<br>let a few pot metal junkers and ill designed pieces put our gun rights and public safety in danger?
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<br>Hawk, I cannot believe letting these events so easily prevented go into the courts is best for gun owners and gun rights.
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<br>Someone communicated concern that raising the safety of firearms will raise the cost to the point where people cannot buy them. I see used Taurus .38's at gun shows for under $200 dollars. Taurus revolvers can be dropped all day and will not discharge.
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<br>Any way as I told RAM I am not apt to convince you nor you me. So for the sake of courtesy I'll let you have the last word. And we'll go on to other things.
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<br>Norm
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