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'You' cannot even 'prove' the existance of God to another believer...! There's no need. The existence, really the reality of God has already been experience by the other believer. That's why he's a believer.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Tracker
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....... I know this post sounds imperious and even a bit haughty but that’s the best I seem to able to do right now.
TF
Then why persist debating your God into existence here? Especially since you suck at it. Not saying that you should withdraw from continuing to do so but maybe develope some novel Apologetics skills first. We've heard all the old ones you have been trotting out before.
Last edited by carbon12; 03/28/15. Reason: uuuurp
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Campfire Ranger
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Try harder Ringman.
And the "PhD scientists" that you often refer to in your posts have been thoroughly debunked as quacks by Antelope Sniper each time, as has their psychobabble quackery. There's no need for me to try harder. You reject without knowing the facts. Like I posted before: Every evolutionist has been debunked by all the evolutionists who don't agree. Just because someone says someone is debunked or discredited does not make it true. The evolutionists are stuck in a nineteenth and twentieth century myth and are not accepting new information. Point of fact: The SETI Project is looking for some kind of signal from space. The universe if filled with radio waves so there has to be some kind of "information" before the scientists will accept the signal as containing information. A series of "dots and dashes" sorta would suffice rather than the random radio wave bombarding the earth all the time. Billions of dollars have been spent on the project, just as billions has been spent trying to make "life" in a test tube. All failed. But when one brings up the most sophisticated storage and retrieval system known to man, the DNA molecule, we are told it is from random chance. By the way, antlers, I noticed you didn't mention the other scientific principals I posted. The guy I read about who happened to be a very rich Christian purchased an electron mass spectrometer (I hope I got that right.). His machine is something like a magnitude more sensitive that what has been available up till now. Everything that possibly could have carbon 14 he tested did have carbon 14. Maybe you could find someone with the a machine like that and find a fossil with no carbon 14. One is all you would need to disprove the 100% claim.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Ranger
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1. You reject without knowing the facts.
2. I noticed you didn't mention the other scientific principals I posted. 1. laffin'..,dude, you wouldn't know what a real 'fact' was if it swam up and bit you in your buttocks. 2. Ya' mean like dinosaurs going on the Ark with Noah and all of the other animals...? You haven't posted 'any' scientific principles. Ever.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Ranger
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ps - I think you would have made a wonderful Pharisee back in the day when Jesus came to earth and dwelt among men.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Ranger
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1. laffin'..,dude, you wouldn't know what a real 'fact' was if it swam up and bit you in your haughty, self-righteous a$$.
2. Ya' mean like dinosaurs going on the Ark with Noah and all of the other animals...? You haven't posted 'any' scientific principles. Ever. You missed the Pointeen / Robertson effect? You missed the Roche Limit? You missed the ocean sediments are lacking? You missed how long it takes to form a fossil? Like I posted, just because you want something to be true doesn't make it true.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Ranger
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... just because you want something to be true doesn't make it true. laffin' so hard I'm blowin' snot That wins, hands down...as the most hypocritical post of the day...!
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Either one of youze got something for stained garage floors ?
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Campfire Ranger
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Originally Posted By Ringman
... just because you want something to be true doesn't make it true.
laffin' so hard I'm blowin' snot
That wins, hands down...as the most hypocritical post of the day...! Who posted scientific concept to be considered and who make light?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Ranger
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Who posted scientific concept to be considered and who make light? 'You' have NEVER posted 'anything' scientific here on this board. Ever. You have however not only made light of real science that has been posted by many here on the board, you have flat out denied it, just like an ostrich sticking his head in a hole in the ground on a clear and sunny day and saying "the sun isn't shining."
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Originally Posted By Ringman
Who posted scientific concept to be considered and who make light?
'You' have NEVER posted 'anything' scientific here on this board. Ever. You have however not only made light of real science that has been posted by many here on the board, you have flat out denied it, just like an ostrich sticking his head in a hole in the ground on a clear and sunny day and saying "the sun isn't shining."
God's Word calls this kind of statement, "Willful ignorance."
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Ranger
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If one could look up 'willful ignorance' in a dictionary, a picture of you, Ringman, would be the most accurate and concise definition of that very term.
Thanks for the chuckle this Sunday mornin'
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Antlers, carbon12 and hillbilly,
You have fallen victim to a fairly common logical fallacy called a “propositional fallacy.” This occurs when a “consequent is claimed to be false because the antecedent is false.”
Explanation: Suppose carbon12, billhilly and antlers are out moose hunting and come upon a camp of bigfoots having dinner. They are invited to join and enjoy the fellowship with the bigfoots for a couple of hours. Then more bigfoots arrive riding unicorns. A great time is had by all and they return to camp with a tale to tell.
Here is the point, someone at camp might say baloney because the bigfoot/unicorn happening is not is their set of life circumstances. Now the occurrence IS in the set of life circumstances of antlers, hillbilly and carbon12 and they are now believers in both bigfoots and unicorns.
The other camp member might tell them; Well we have never seen a bigfoot or a unicorn and since WE have never seen them, it is IMPOSSIBLE for you three to have seen them. There it is, the propositional fallacy. False, because the three of you KNOW that bigfoots and unicorns exist. So, you KNOW something to be true but you cannot convince your campfire members it is true because it is in YOUR set of experience but not theirs.
So, you may feel the need to make jokes drinking too much or what not and about bigfoots and unicorns, but you must see the failure of your logic and attempts at joking only make it clear that either you don’t understand or are unwilling to admit the logic error.
TF
Once again, you are the person who's logic fails. In the above example the skeptic would evaluate the claim verses the evidence. Yes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In your above example, it would be easy to test the evidence. How many pictures did you take of this event with your cell phone? Do you have video of it? Lets see your GPS so we can revisit the camp site. There should be remnants of the meal, evidence of where the tent was pitched, hair, footprints, hoof tracks, maybe horn imprints or rub marks on the trees, and Unicorn droppings. The Scat and the hair could be subjected to DNA testing to see if it originated for common farm animals, or something more exotics. In other words, there would be plenty of opportunity for you to provide evidence to support your claim. If on the other hand, you claim the bigfoots and unicorns curve space and time so that you could see them, but your cell phone and GPS wouldn't work, and none of you could find the alleged camp site, and it wouldn't matter even if we could find it, because only people who were at the party could see tent stake holes, foot prints, hair, and where the unicorns rubbed their horns on the trees. Then you insist I have to believe it, because I can't disprove your light bending, space warping unicorn story. So you above example is completely off the mark, which is not surprising, since YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW THE MEANING OF THE WORDS PROPOSITIONAL FALLACY: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/propfall.htmlOnce again, all you managed to do is demonstrate how you don't understand logic or the nature of evidence. RED HERRING ALERT! RED HERRING ALERT! You know that the point of the story is true so you choose not to dispute it so you introduce something irrelevant. So you start with a red herring and then introduce a straw man and knock it down. The point is, just because someone does not believe does make that belief impossible. Someone might say "I don't believe in bigfoots/unicorns." One might ask him wqhy and he might say, because there is no evidence for them that I have ever seen. All this means is tht so far, based on the SET OF HIS EXPERIANCE, he believes bigfoots/unicorns do not exist. OK, but that does not mean someone else may have a well founded belief in bigfoots/unicorns because it is IN HIS SET OF EXPERIENCE. Certainly you see that. TF Again, you are totally misrepresenting the nature of evidence. Totality of evidence does not have to be limited to personal experience. As an example, I have yet to personally, directly observe the Dwarf Planet known as Pluto, or any other Kyperbelt object for that matter, but the body of scientific evidence is sufficient that I still have a rational belief in their existence. Furthermore, since the orbital period of Pluto is around 240 years, but we've only known about it for about a third that time, no one has observed it's entire orbital period, but we can still deduce it's duration and shape. The Red Herring is not me describing the nature of skepticism and evidence, which you are trying to distort and misrepresent, it's you with your "you weren't there, but should believe me anyway, even though I have zero corroborating evidence" stick. Again, you are unable to comprehend the simple truth, that just because you can describe something that cannot be dis-proven, that does not make it reasonable to believe in actually exists.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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You are rather simple, that's for sure. The hunters in your analogy have physical evidence they can show to other people. Where is yours? If you don't have any, you don't know either. Faith and belief are not the same as knowing.
billhilly posted: You are rather simple, that's for sure. The hunters in your analogy have physical evidence they can show to other people. Where is yours? If you don't have any, you don't know either. Faith and belief are not the same as knowing. antelope sniper posted: God has to exist before he can be sovereign. antlers posted: An atheist can no more 'disprove' the existance of God than can a believer 'prove' the existance of God. 4ager posted: No one "knows" one way or the other. That, is fact. Many have beliefs, one way or the other, but no one "knows". Here are some cuts from the above posts: “no one knows” about the existence of God. Also, “..... (can’t) … ‘prove’ the existance of God. “God has to exist (implying this has not been demonstrated, at least to AS) Then, “The hunters have evidence, Where is yours? …. you don’t know either.” Seems that many believe that because God cannot be proven to an atheist, that this “proof” of God’s existence is not out there. This is simply not true. Going back to the moose hunters. They HAVE THEIR PROOF in their own experience. They may not be able to convince the other hunters at the campfire, but they did in fact have the experience and therefore are believers. Their set of experience contains MORE FACT and has given them FIRM BELIEF in bf/unicorns. Now the skeptics at the campfire may not believe the story but the moosehunters believe it. In their experience, there is PROOF of the existence of bigfoots and unicorns. Sure, maybe nobody will believe it but that does not change the TRUTH of it and the TRUTH that the moosehunters now accept and believe. billhilly posted that “I (TF) don’t know” Well, if my experience set includes an experience with God, then I KNOW that and billhilly cannot know or appreciate it. AS posts that “God has to exist before he can be sovereign” He is correct in that but he has not had the same experience with God that I have. He cannot “know” what my faith and belief are based on. He may state that “God has not met the (my) burden of proof.” OK, but that does not deter me in any way because I have had the experience that he has not had, at least not yet. antlers posts that an atheist cannot disprove the existence of God. True enough. But God CAN PROVE his existence to us as individuals. He has proven his existence to me. Maybe not to antlers, at least not yet. 4ager posts what may be the most straightforward view of them all. He says “...no one knows.” I would think that that is a truly held belief. But, it does not square with my own experience. I have experiences that 4ager has not yet had. So, I know this post sounds imperious and even a bit haughty but that’s the best I seem to able to do right now. TF Just because you experience something, doesn't mean it was real. Do you believe in Alien Abductions? There are thousands of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens, taken into strange crafts, and butt probed. To these people their experiences were real, but I ask you, which is more likely, that they got butt probed by aliens, and have no evidence for it, or experienced a delusion. One interesting point is the similarity in the alien abduction stories, which are more similar then the wide variety of different Christian Gods experienced by people. If he is the same God, are they not more similar to each other? Anthropologist have studies the various ways primitive tribes are knows to bring on a state of delusion, from heavy panting in a low oxygen part of a deep cave, peyote, various fermented beverages, and dancing in the sun while dehydrates and bleeding. All of these are credited with bringing on an "enlightened state" similar to what Christians make regarding their God experience. Of course as a skeptic I have to ask, what is more likely. Did Crazy horse experience the Great Spirit on Sundance Mountain, or was he just having a sunstroke? Did you experience God, or were you just caught up in the frenzy of your congregation? Did Paul see Jesus, or did he just have a sunstroke on a primitive road in the middle of a desert before the invention of air conditioning? Why is it that your god cannot manifest himself in any manner beyond a vision in your head? And why are your visions different from those of every other Christian? Why is it that you are unable to offer any evidence, and the best you can do is a watered down version of the presuppositional argument? At what point do you admit, you've got nothing, and there is no there, there?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Ranger
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that does not make it reasonable to believe in actually exists. Like the Oort Cloud?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Try harder Ringman.
And the "PhD scientists" that you often refer to in your posts have been thoroughly debunked as quacks by Antelope Sniper each time, as has their psychobabble quackery. But when one brings up the most sophisticated storage and retrieval system known to man, the DNA molecule, we are told it is from random chance. By the way, antlers, I noticed you didn't mention the other scientific principals I posted. The guy I read about who happened to be a very rich Christian purchased an electron mass spectrometer (I hope I got that right.). His machine is something like a magnitude more sensitive that what has been available up till now. Everything that possibly could have carbon 14 he tested did have carbon 14. Maybe you could find someone with the a machine like that and find a fossil with no carbon 14. One is all you would need to disprove the 100% claim. Again, you are just wrong. First Evolution is not random. There is a selecting system, known as natural selection, which is not random. Second, DNA is not "information". Information involves the communication between two or more minds, and DNA duplicates it self through a simple chemical process. There is no conveyance of thoughts in the duplication process, therefore your use of an Equivocation Fallacy is once again invalid. Now lets discuss how the half life of carbon 14 really works. As previously noted Carbon14 has a half life of 5730 years. So let's ask the question, how much of a carbon14 sample remains after 5730 years? Since we are using round numbers, the math is actually pretty easy. Take 1/2 and raise it to the 10th power, and you get 1/1024. In other words, after 57,300 years, 0.09765625% of the carbon 14 will remain within a given sample. So lets use your earth example. The mass of the earth is 6.58321x10^21 short tons. So how much would remain after 57,300 years. Well this is just a matter of simple division. Divide the above figure by 1024 and you get 6,428,918,544,921,880,000 short tons. So, once again, your assertion that if the entire earth was made of carbon14 that it would evaporate in 50-60k years is absolutely absurd, and demonstrates you inability to comprehend simple 6th grade math.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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that does not make it reasonable to believe in actually exists. Like the Oort Cloud? Unlike the Christian God, the Oort Cloud is testable and falsifiable.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Regular
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OP
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AS posted:
"Just because you experience something, doesn't mean it was real."
Seems like you will choose to remain a denier until your last breath.
My set of experiences includes that which yours does not. If you choose to remain a denier you can certainly believe that what I have experienced and continue to experience is not real.
I deny your claim of atheism. I wonder if your atheism is not real at all. Perhaps you have been under spirit and conviction and you cannot accept the sovereignty of god so you are in active rebellion. Yep, that's my view of your reality.
TF
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Campfire Tracker
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AS posted:
.....I deny your claim of atheism. I wonder if your atheism is not real at all. Perhaps you have been under spirit and conviction and you cannot accept the sovereignty of god so you are in active rebellion. Yep, that's my view of your reality.
TF
Yep. Estrogen replacement therapy OD. Easy diagnosis. Seen it before.
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Campfire Ranger
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Originally Posted By Ringman
Quote:
that does not make it reasonable to believe in actually exists.
Like the Oort Cloud?
Unlike the Christian God, the Oort Cloud is testable and falsifiable.
Is it falsifiable because it is cold and can't be seen with an infrared telescope and dark so it can't be seen with an optical telescope?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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