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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
What speed does that occur? 3,400fps? I have no idea. Didn't even consider chronographing the excessive loads that were destroying bullets, and had no interest in establishing any lower threshold of performance. The purpose of this entire design concept was to determine the most, not less, that would produce usable performance — the maximum muzzle velocity, the maximum down-range energy, the “flattest” trajectory, the least wind drift, the shortest time of flight. The loads that destroyed bullets were clearly excessive, so there was no practical point in testing them further. The investigation did, of course, include a number of variations in the determining factors to establish the points that could not be exceeded without entirely destroying performance. Never was there any interest in how much less of any determinant would produce usable performance.The sole purpose of the entire investigation was finding the most that produced desirable field performance.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
22-243 with 1&8 twist with Hornady 75 gr A-Max
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,423
Campfire Kahuna Emeritus & Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Kahuna Emeritus & Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,423 |
In total truth, it is really hard to beat a good man with a .223 Remington. High capacity cartridges are fine, high BC bullets are excellent, but what is above all else is a superb marksman with many hours of trigger time.
You can design all you want and make all the theories you can, but the truth comes out when bullets are actually shot, animals are killed dead and the marksman learns his both the rifle and the cartridge. The three become a deadly team.
Theoretical shooting of non-existent bullets on the internet is totally useless. Bullets in the air, bullets actually killing things that bleed and die ... that's all that counts. Anything else is total bullshit.
And that is the damned truth.
Steve
"God Loves Each Of Us As If There Were Only One Of Us" Saint Augustine of Hippo - AD 397
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,689 Likes: 46
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,689 Likes: 46 |
In total truth, it is really hard to beat a good man with a .223 Remington. High capacity cartridges are fine, high BC bullets are excellent, but what is above all else is a superb marksman with many hours of trigger time.
You can design all you want and make all the theories you can, but the truth comes out when bullet are actually shot and the marksman learns his both the rifle and the cartridge. The three become a deadly team.
Theoretical shooting of non-existent bullets on the internet are totally useless. Bullets in the air, bullets actually killing things that bleed and die, are all that count.
And that is the damned truth.
Steve
Steve for president and honorary King of the Campfire. I get tired of fast twist, High BC and al the other crap that still doesn't kill any deader than a hit from a good shot...
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
Down-range velocities compared —
• 50-grain V-Max @ 3,850 ft/sec, BC 0.242 (.220 Swift, Hornady factory load) • 75-grain A-Max @ 3,450 ft/sec, BC 0.435 (.224 Laser, maximum handload)
@ 199 yd — Swift 2,998 ft.sec — Laser 2,998 ft/sec @ 500 yd — Swift 1,965 ft/sec — Laser 2,393 ft/sec @ 1,000 yd — Swift 998 ft/sec — Laser 1,562 ft/sec
Also, the A-Max is 50% heavier than the V-Max, and its maximum peak pressure is only 50,000 lb/sq in. (Swift's is 60,000 lb/sq in. or higher)
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
In total truth, it is really hard to beat a good man with a .223 Remington.
Steve, I know I'll never be a good man, so I cheat and use the 22-250, 8" twist and the 75gr. A-Max... grin. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,423
Campfire Kahuna Emeritus & Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Kahuna Emeritus & Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,423 |
In total truth, it is really hard to beat a good man with a .223 Remington. High capacity cartridges are fine, high BC bullets are excellent, but what is above all else is a superb marksman with many hours of trigger time.
You can design all you want and make all the theories you can, but the truth comes out when bullet are actually shot and the marksman learns his both the rifle and the cartridge. The three become a deadly team.
Theoretical shooting of non-existent bullets on the internet are totally useless. Bullets in the air, bullets actually killing things that bleed and die, are all that count.
And that is the damned truth.
Steve
Steve for president and honorary King of the Campfire. I get tired of fast twist, High BC and al the other crap that still doesn't kill any deader than a hit from a good shot... My friend Shrapnel, Yep, I get tired of theory and total bullshit. Lots of shooting and trigger time is all that counts. For craps sakes, I've shot beside Johnny B with his little .22 Hornet and Gail Root and his silly .221 Fireball rifle and they both out-shot the sh1t out of me with my .223 Ackley. The MAN, the damned rifleman, is way more important than some theoretical piece of bullshit. Bullets fired and trigger time is what it's all about. I apologize if I stepped on some theoretical toes, but you KNOW I speak the damned truth. After all, I've launched more boolits than most. Steve
"God Loves Each Of Us As If There Were Only One Of Us" Saint Augustine of Hippo - AD 397
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
What speed does that occur? 3,400fps? I have no idea. Didn't even consider chronographing the excessive loads that were destroying bullets, and had no interest in establishing any lower threshold of performance. The purpose of this entire design concept was to determine the most, not less, that would produce usable performance — the maximum muzzle velocity, the maximum down-range energy, the “flattest” trajectory, the least wind drift, the shortest time of flight. The loads that destroyed bullets were clearly excessive, so there was no practical point in testing them further. The investigation did, of course, include a number of variations in the determining factors to establish the points that could not be exceeded without entirely destroying performance. Never was there any interest in how much less of any determinant would produce usable performance.The sole purpose of the entire investigation was finding the most that produced desirable field performance. You stated that any twist faster than 9 would result in the A-Max coming unglued. So I was hoping you wrote down the speeds when you saw that happen. But at least now I know it will happen if things become "excessive." Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,423
Campfire Kahuna Emeritus & Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Kahuna Emeritus & Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,423 |
In total truth, it is really hard to beat a good man with a .223 Remington.
Steve, I know I'll never be a good man, so I cheat and use the 22-250, 8" twist and the 75gr. A-Max... grin. Travis Travis, my good friend, you totally and absolutely SUCK GFY Your buddy Steve
"God Loves Each Of Us As If There Were Only One Of Us" Saint Augustine of Hippo - AD 397
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
It's a sweet combo.
The only downside is shrapnel belittles that poor rifle every time I manage to hit something with it.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,689 Likes: 46
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,689 Likes: 46 |
It's a sweet combo.
The only downside is shrapnel belittles that poor rifle every time I manage to hit something with it.
Travis The killingest gun on the PD Invitational firing line still ended up as a 222 Remington magnum against all the other hotrods. Yee haw. the Invitational was closed, but Steve has just earned himself a spot. Let me know if you want to come up and do it. The best the Campfire has to offer will be there... Oh yeah, and Travis too...
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Down-range velocities compared —
• 50-grain V-Max @ 3,850 ft/sec, BC 0.242 (.220 Swift, Hornady factory load) • 75-grain A-Max @ 3,450 ft/sec, BC 0.435 (.224 Laser, maximum handload)
@ 199 yd — Swift 2,998 ft.sec — Laser 2,998 ft/sec @ 500 yd — Swift 1,965 ft/sec — Laser 2,393 ft/sec @ 1,000 yd — Swift 998 ft/sec — Laser 1,562 ft/sec
Also, the A-Max is 50% heavier than the V-Max, and its maximum peak pressure is only 50,000 lb/sq in. (Swift's is 60,000 lb/sq in. or higher) What's the difference between a 75gr. A-Max clocking 3,250 vs 3,450? Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
The killingest gun on the PD Invitational firing line still ended up as a 222 Remington magnum against all the other hotrods.
Yee haw. the Invitational was closed, but Steve has just earned himself a spot. Let me know if you want to come up and do it. The best the Campfire has to offer will be there...
Oh yeah, and Travis too...
He can stay in my circus tent. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,689 Likes: 46
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,689 Likes: 46 |
All the pickled eggs and Spam a guy can eat...
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Yep. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,291 Likes: 24
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,291 Likes: 24 |
In total truth, it is really hard to beat a good man with a .223 Remington. High capacity cartridges are fine, high BC bullets are excellent, but what is above all else is a superb marksman with many hours of trigger time.
You can design all you want and make all the theories you can, but the truth comes out when bullets are actually shot, animals are killed dead and the marksman learns his both the rifle and the cartridge. The three become a deadly team.
Theoretical shooting of non-existent bullets on the internet is totally useless. Bullets in the air, bullets actually killing things that bleed and die ... that's all that counts. Anything else is total bullshit.
And that is the damned truth.
Steve
I like this version of Steve...not that I don't like the original.
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,689 Likes: 46
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,689 Likes: 46 |
It earned him a spot on the PD Invitational that has been a coveted spot even though it didn't even exist...
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 14,317 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 14,317 Likes: 3 |
I like to use my unscientific load of 26grains of some kinda military surplus powder and 55 grain Dogtown,Hornady,Varmint extreme, what evers on sale in my 223 Wilde Rocky Varmint AR.I load up ammo in 10 lb.lots and go kill stuff with its 1/8 twist Wilson barrel.More fun than a barrel full of puking monkeys!@!!!
Its all right to be white!! Stupidity left unattended will run rampant Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,145 Likes: 23
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,145 Likes: 23 |
The 220 Laser and 220 Howell are the same thing for those who didn't know. I didn't like the effort it took to make brass from 25-06 so I quit trying. It becomes a labor of love rather than a matter of practicality. I chambered a total of one rifle in this caliber and decided I would be better off with a faster 6 than trying to make 22 bullets do something they really weren't intended to do. I get using 75 grain Amax and the ilk when forced to use a service rifle to shoot 600 yards. I don't get it when you can use any rifle in any caliber you want. If you want to shoot coyotes at 600 yards with moderate recoil it's hard to beat a flat shooting 6 such as the .243AI.
NRA Benefactor Member
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
It earned him a spot on the PD Invitational that has been a coveted spot even though it didn't even exist...
Must be nice to create nonexistent seats and control the weather at the same time. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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