Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Ultimate Long-Range Varmint Cartridge

I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that Steve Timm has fired no telling how many thousand more rounds down range at a variety of critters large and small than anybody that buys into this .224 Laser BS has ever even thought about.

And I do not care whose toes it steps on.

Thank you.



Clark

Need some steel toe boots in 'dis muthahfuggah!




Travis

Back when speed was all the rage, and everyone was trying to hit the 4K fps mark I had a .22 Cheetah built. It really liked Sierra 52 Grain HP BT at about 3900 fps and hits were impressive. Crows were simply vaporized.

But with less than 400 rounds through it, the barrel was toast. But it was fun.

I have a nice little .223, and I shoot it a lot. I really like shooting it. I bought it with the express purpose of practicing my rifle shooting enough to burn the barrel out of it. I already have the replacement barrel for it sitting on the shelf. And it is a dandy little coyote rifle out to 250 yards too. It is not a rifle I would get ever get rid of, at all.

But I have owned a Swift since the early 90's, and I love that cartridge too. After I shot the original one out, I decided next time around I wanted something that would buck the wind better than those 50/55 bullets. That is why I went with the fast twist. And I love it. A .223 kills coyotes fine, but not with the authority a fast-twist 22 hotrod does as the range stretches out. That is mainly what my Swift gets used for, as a calling rifle and occasionally banging steel plates. I am not concerned with shooting out the barrel on it either, because due to a screw-up at the Shilen factory I already have the replacement barrel for it on the shelf too. If it is gone in 3-4 years, so be it.

Skill does trump theoretical ballistics, any day. However, each one of us has the amount of skill we have. I am constantly trying to improve mine. But there are also times I will take every ballistic advantage I can get.

High performance rifle are like high performance race cars if you run them hard you have to rebuild them . Speed comes at a price . When the barrel goes just stick another one on the action, it is that simple. It is just money and you ain't going to take it with you when you go under.

Yikes, I don't think what happened with this thread was expected by the poster...

Yeah. An extra 25 grains of powder with no gain should be explored further.



Travis

Interesting that in the competitive world you typically take every advantage you legally can, and that usually nets you the least mistakes over time.

I don't know why shooting at PDs would be any different, heck shrap would do do better with something faster/higher bc than the 222 mag. Because he is a top shot.

Thats pretty much common sense.

Yet sometimes there are reasons not to go the full distance.. harder to shoot consistently as rounds get larger, there is so much more affect on groups that the body is guilty of on higher recoiling rounds. The cost of the rounds and extra barrels/powder etc...

I'd take someone that shot 223 all day every day over the weekend warrior with the 220 Howell or such. But with no strings attached give the Howell to the day in day out shooter, and assumign the accuracy levels are the same as the 223, the Howell would win.

Yet I do not care for the negativity around this place when discussing ideas. Especially with someone that has had a few years of experience and should net some respect.....

I appreciate that.



Travis

Nice inquiry. Answer here is - NO - obviously.

You or others might explore further - I would not.

Well, seems like there need not be any worry about stepping on toes. You willingness to bet a lot of money, as stated, might seem impressive - until one considers that quantity of effort and certain experience might add little or nothing when it comes to breaking new ground - even small ground.

......every cartridge possible at those little buck-toothed pests, even the .45-70....."

Yep....... and a 44 mag also puts a hurt on 'em up close, which is the only way I can hit 'em with a six gun.

But David [aka Paladin] beat both of us last year when he killed a PD with his 470 NE.

Damn right, I seen it.

And I think maybe Dogzapper spent too much time with the Communion wine this morning, picking a fight with his buddy, Ken.

He's wrong. According to google the correct answer is "a good many". Wiki says that's a little more than "a right smart".

Don't matter to me at all. I shoot a load solely based on accuracy within safe pressure limits. Usually the most accurate load(s) are somewhere below published maximums. When a barrel wears out I twist it it off and screw in a new one. Barrels are like brake pads, they are wear parts and get tossed in the scrap pile when accuracy goes to pot. I don't mess around having them set back, but may someday send them out for a reboring to a size larger and rechambered in something that'll scrub out the old chamber. One thing I did notice is that the .223 Remington is a really great cartridge, and even better in a Pac-Nor 1:9" twist Polygonal rifled barrel. In fact I'm really becoming quite a fan of polygonal rifling. That first barrel required a new ball bearing rod so patches would follow, but what the heck. These barrels clean up easily and SEEM to last longer, but then I don't tally shots till wear out.

Here is a relatively mild load, a tad over 3,100 fps, ten shots at 100 yards - good enough for government work.



Now when that little 40 grain Nosler BT Lead Free bullet hits Oregon sage rats at anything beyond 200 yards, it makes squirrel jelly of their innards, and in every case pops a little hole near their skull. These were hit mid-chest, but note the little goo eruption near their heads. I finally concluded that the polycarbonate tip was responsible. Maybe all that super-duper velocity and magical runes about B.C. isn't really necessary, if you know your rifle and have really good trigger discipline.

Travis

Educated guess here... I ran 223, and like I was typing... inside my competition parameters I took every advantage I could legally so to speak with equipment. Then if I messed up it was my fault for loosing. Yet if a single shot I made due to hihger pressure/mv/bc was a half or quarter inch closer to the bull, it could mean the difference between win and loose, talent being equal if htat makes any sense.

On that note, I ran the 50 psi or so loads, likely more around 53 or so psi(ish) and then after reading, researching etc... I decided on my own, right or wrong, that 60 psi, was not going to be a danger and could be a slight advantage... so I ramped em up, and was actually checked by a friend on ammo pressures via strain gauge IIRC... Chris knows what he did better than I...

Bottom line I was probably around 7-8 more than most folks were shooting. And above what I started shooting.

Barrel life... on cut Kriegers, virtually no life difference. Buttoned PN tubes, some, but it was enough variable that I just was not confident that it made any real life difference really.

I would say on short lived buttoned tubes in 223, the difference was less than 1000 rounds of life. On cut barreled tubes I just flat did not see a difference on average.

I also used to believe what I was told that NTIT rattle battle rapid fire guns would die quicker than none... NTIT is as many rounds as you can fire in 50 second time slots, and not enough time between strings to cool, still that time had to be at least 5 minutes or more between strings..

What I found, is that wiht the M14/M1A it was more often the life of the bedding, not the barrel and that traveled over to the AR also, though with it I'm pretty sure we saw a slightly less life of in the 500-maybe 1000 round range. Not enough to really matter, and as stated above, barrels are cheap enough compared to life, and if its what you want to do, why not?

A lot of this I can compare in my meager pea brain, as the same as one one hand I'll tell you I could kill almost ever deer I've killed with a 22lr, or a 223 surely... yet on a trophy hunt, I"ll take a handy fast twist, high bc, fast round every time, because its win or loose for a one time chance very possibly and I have no control of the conditions etc... on those types of hunts.

I can see that just dinking with PDs, what the heck, 223 would be just as good as anything.

The other note.... I don't personally feel that the difference between 50 and 60 psi is a matter, but that its mostly the amount of powder burned in a diameter of barrel. It actually almost makes sense... burn lets say 30 pounds of powder in a .224 barrel and you are likely about done give or take, ( other factors do come into play like button or cut etc...) Whether that 30 pounds is burned 50-60 grains at a time or 25 or 10, it still ends up being relatively close...

I did not stay at Holiday Inn last night.

One last comment, as to most accurate loads below max... that is not the case with some powders, and N500 series made me scratch my head until I ended up towards the very top and over... I should have listened as a big family name in palma told me that... but I was being safe to start with...

I learned a good time ago the finer points of the 222 family of cartridges and my all time fave is the 222 mag. Having said that I do have a 8 twist barrel on the bench beside my lathe that needs a job and a ample supply of A maxes in the reload room however the prospect of three or more separate case manipulations on some 25-06 brass does not sound too appealing. A little research shows if a fella should want to burn more powder in an endeavor such as this (that is anything other than the 222 kinda brass) the two most obvious case choices that would require little to no forming operations would be the 22-250 or the 220 swift or slight variations of the two. Case capacity, powder selection and easy brass availability should be the question. Lets compare...What is the case capacity of the Laser with a bullet seated to the bottom of the neck?

okie - nice post. Maybe not the optimum powder and type for the cartridge, but have used Reloader19 and it's what's in my measure right now. I read 34.7 grains of the Reloader19 with bullet seated as you describe. The designer probably can give you the case volume in water - maybe measured to the bottm of the neck - maybe not.

I wanted this rifle/cartridge for a special reason - started with a good used barrel - and agree that getting to the proper case dimensions can be a challenge. As you would probably opine, the specific dies make it easier. But, have also gone the described multi-step route from 25:06 brass. On some days I maybe can be concentrated and patient.

I do not know the complete history of that line of cartridges. But, as for basic case selection, have a hunch that one intent may have been that most - if not all - would be founded on the basic 30:06 case. I may be way off there.

There is room for both.
Different goals favor different systems.
I've built and love my Steve Timm inspired 1 in 14 twisted 223AI.
Nothing but 40 gr. NBT's have ever sullied it's throat at 4000 fps with 30 grs of powder at 22".
I also have 1 in 8 twisted 223 WSSM and 22-250 AI and shoot the 75 gr. A-max' in the 3400ish fps. range. Actually a 223 too but like the higher launch speeds of the others.
Shooting tons of rounds a day at prairie poodles I'd take the 223AI every time.
But I mainly shoot woodchucks and coyotes so other than paper/steel don't fire high round counts.
The 223AI is great to 400 yards and certainly works further.
But the the other two big brother it soundly beyond that both in whomp and making hits in conditions
As to what velocity and when the 75 gr. A-max's blow up I've pushed em to 3500 without issue.
Seems throat checkering and groove # have affect when this happens.
Seen others mention issue with three grooves at some pretty low round counts.

As to Ken's cartridge it would be neat to see bore scope pics every 50 rounds until all there was to see was seen between a balls to the wall loaded 22-250 and Ken's cartridge.

With the advent of more better high BC bullets and cartridges in the .244 caliber Ken's cartridge might not be as attractive as the time he designed it.

Steve's kinda gruff with Ken as Ken has offended him in the past.
I'm always surprised how passive/aggressive/easily offended Steve is considering the mature believer he is.

I get Steve's point. Becoming intimate with one cartridge's ballistics and putting in the required trigger time to do so will make one a "sharpshooter".
Buying more performance won't.

But then again I've never seen a one rifle hunter to be beware of
Just some of my thoughts on this thread