Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Arrogant Biologist kills worlds oldest Jaguar

Yep and here we go Mr. Turn in Poacher 800 # DPole, DPole.

You do have a slight disadvantage in living wherever you do, in not being apart of an ecosystem that did have jaguars and desert mountain sheep roaming the mountain slopes of the southwest at one time.

Yet, I think the majority of hunters and nonhunters alike see a photograph of a jaguar in the wild, in the United States of America along the southern border, living in an area populated by mexican drug runners armed with AK-47's (keep in mind this is all on American soil). Everyone could give a hell less if it ate a deer or two or thousand (probably just eats pigs and rabbits)...any wild free roaming jaguar who crosses the border from Mexico is a survivor, needs to show no ID and is automatically granted wildlife citizenship.

Dpole, my point being, jaguars are so extremely rare along the borderlands. I would pay more $$$ just to see a wild one lurking about our southwestern terrain, then I would to pay to grope the hope diamond or Pam Anderson's fake...err...swimsuit on baywatch.

That is just my call.






























and the last thing they think about is "Holy Hell, Our Deer Population Just Crashed!!! Watching a bobcat chasing rabbit

Sorry, Mudhen, I am going to through out the BS card.



Did anyone think to run a dna eletrophoresis gel? On just hair samples or salvia sequences? If you caught the cat once, run the dna! Dry out the gel, photo copy or scan it and sent it to the universities in mexico that specialize in wildlife studies. Because they have been doing the same thing for the past 20 years with wild jaguars.

Mudhen if folks want to know where these critters come from, stick out your right arm at a 45 degree angle/index finger pointed due south and say "From There". Outside of that explaination, macho b, didn't land here from pluto land. His dna is matched up somewheere.

The dots will come together

Yet what do I know, I'm just a pasty white viking dude

lnf150, I have to call the BS card on you.

DNA is useful stuff, but it won't show you anything close to the resolution that the Mudhen or Warner wants to know.

BTW, who in Mexico has been working on jaguar DNA for 20 yrs? Just curious.

As a pasty white viking dude to another, I'm sorta curious about what you know about Mexican jags....

My apologies then. I didn't realize that you copy and pasted it from G&F. It stands to reason that they are going to assert that it was inadvertent when baiting the traps with jaguar urine and scat is NOT the preferred method to catch lions!!

This isn't over yet- Another federal indictment handed down. This person may be the Game& Fish employee- it doesn't say. They have done a great job of protecting him up to this point.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/05/17/20100517arizona-jaguar-death-charges.html

According to her "confession" to the Arizona Daily Star, she was the one that actually placed the scat on the scent station. She was a volunteer working with the NJDP.

Jaguar 101: it's wordy (Copied, part of a formal comment submitted to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in response to their request for comments on declaring Critical Habitat for the jaguar in the United States).

Northern Jaguar Population status

Just a little over 100 miles south of the U.S./Mexico border is the northern-most reproducing jaguar population. This population occurs in a remote, mountainous region of approximately 5,000 square miles which extends from near the small town of Nacori Chico, Sonora, southward through the foothills of the Sierra Madre to near Yecora, Sonora, and is approximately defined on the west by the alignment of the Rio Bavispe - RioYaqui - Rio Sahuaripa river system, and on the east by the Sonora/Chihuahua state line. This is a region that is roughly comparable in size to all of southeast Arizona south of I-10 and east of I-19, but it has no paved roads, no cities, and no intensive commerce aside from scattered ranches. Unlike southeast AZ and southwest NM, this region has the benefit of abundant water along a number of rivers and streams where there is little if any human habitation. The major rivers are the Rio Bavispe, Rio Aros, Rio Bacadehuachi, Rio Papigochic, Rio Sahuaripa and Rio Yaqui, with numerous smaller springs and streams. The region also supports an abundant prey base for jaguars in the form of javelina, coatimundi, white-tail deer and mule deer. This is also an area where the human population has declined over the last few decades, in striking contrast to southern AZ, as people have moved from ranches to cities in search of jobs. If we want to truly protect the northern jaguars, this is the place to do it.

The main threat to this jaguar population is hunting related to jaguar predation on livestock. Rosas-Rosas, et al. (2010) reported that during the five year period from 1999 to 2004 at least eleven jaguars were killed in the Nacori Chico area, just over 100 miles south of the border. Killing jaguars is illegal there, so obviously not all kills are reported, but bounties are still offered on some ranches. The fact that a jaguar population persists nearby in the face of this kind of pressure gives some indication of the quality of jaguar �habitat� in the U.S. Jaguars can (and occasionally do based on rare U.S. sitings) walk through the uninterrupted wild habitat from Nacori Chico to the U.S. border in a few days. If habitat here looked good to them, they would stay. But they don�t. There are simply too many people, not enough water, and not enough prey to support jaguars in the U.S.

Another indication of the status of the northern jaguar population and habitat is a comparison of population densities with other jaguar populations across their range. A recent population estimate by the Northern Jaguar Project (2009) on their jaguar preserve east of Sahuaripa, Sonora, indicate a density of approximately one per 100 square-km. Density estimates for jaguars in other locations throughout Central and South America typically range from around 3 to 10 per 100 km-sq. These places include: the Pantanal, Brazil � 10.3/km-sq (Soisalo & Cavalcanti 2006); Corcovado, Costa Rica � 7/100 km-sq (Salom-Perez et al. 2007); three locations in Belize � 6.8, 8.8 and 11.3/100 km-sq (WCS 2004); Calakmul and Maya Bosphere Reserve, Mexico � 3.5 and 4/100 km-sq (Aranda 1990); and the Chaco and Amazon, Bolivia � 2.4 and 8.8/100 km-sq (Silver, et al. 2004); and the Caatinga, Brazil � 2.7/100 km-sq (Silveira et al. 2009).

The population density of the northern population in Sonora is among the lowest of jaguar populations studied anywhere, suggesting that habitat there is somewhat lower quality than elsewhere in their range, although it is still much better than anything in the U.S. One of the few places where jaguars have been documented with a population density this low, 1/100 km-sq, is the Atlantic Forest region of Brazil where habitat has been extensively modified (Pitman and Mazzoli 2008). The researchers there have observed local extinction and are pessimistic about survival of jaguar there. A study of jaguars in Belize concluded that to assure long-term survival, a jaguar population needed approximately 650 individuals (Eizirik et al. 2002). The Sonoran jaguar population has been estimated at around 200 (C. Lopez 2008).

Based on all of these observations, the idea that there could ever be a reproducing jaguar population in the U.S. is ludicrous. However, the nearest northern jaguar population desperately needs help, and wasting funds on a frivolous action to list critical habitat in the U.S. simply diverts help from where it is really needed. From time to time brown pelicans show up on the sewage ponds in Tucson, about as frequently as jaguars show up in AZ, but no one would seriously consider the sewage ponds critical habitat for pelicans.

OK, that makes sense- she was the one that went to the zoo and got the stuff if I recall correctly.

There obviously aren't a lot of jaguars running around in AZ and Mexico. I don't know where John killed the one he got in trouble for but that family wasn't exactly known for their compliance with government parameters, both in their grazing and hunting ventures. John was without a doubt the most outdoor savvy individual I have every hunting with in my life. He practically lived outdoors. Too bad he got caught up in that sting.

I have talked to two houndsmen, both who work or run cattle ranches at some time, who have treed more than one jaguar. One guy in particular was "fired" by his employer because he did NOT kill the two he treed.

The other one did not have a whole lot to say about it but did not count it as any big deal. He caught one of his on the San Carlos reservation. He also told me that he knew of several houndsmen who had treed jags. He said that they are extremely hard on dogs and has chased at least 10 but did not catch many of them. He said that they would single out a dog and kill him while the others tried to maul them. Behavior was not quite the same as most lions.

A few years ago, my uncle was working on his graduate degree at U of A and was commuting from Safford to Tucson several times a week. He had one run across I-10 in front of his car one night and almost hit it. It had a big effect on him and he related the story to me several times. They are around...

We can beat this all we want but the bottom line is because these guys intentionally trapped a jaguar, they broke the law. The bad thing is that the community didn't like it one bit and this got the attention of the AZ AG office as well as the US attorney's office in the District of AZ. When this happens, their will be scapegoats.

The fact that the jaguar died just made the trapping part no longer something that could be ignored. Like I posted earlier, he likely had no idea that he would wade into a crocodile pit with this one.

Too bad for the volunteer, she probably thought she was protected by following orders, but on the other hand, may have been complicit in the whole conspiracy.

I suspect that there could be some other charges, unless the statute of limitations is up, pending for the others.

A hanging always seemed to draw a big crowd in the old west- this is just the 21st century version of the same...

If I ever see a jaguar in the wild, not sure I would want to tell anyone!

Other than James "Grizzly" Adams' story that was here on the home page for a while, any evidence that jags made it into the Sierra Nevada? Seems like the habitat would have been very supportive of them.

Heck with all the wild boar/ferals now in south Texas and California, they might do pretty well, if they could get to those places.

they use to show up here in south Texas probably still do.a black bear was killed near freer TX about 9-10 yr ago. most figured it came up from Mexico or the big bend area. guy who killed it got in a lot of trouble. he tried to claim self defense but the evidence did not support that

yep...I recall a big bear, 400 lbs or so that was killed by a car on I-10 - that was over 15 years ago, IIRC. The last time I was in Big Bend NP, they had warning signs about, near the Chisos Mtns regarding bears.

Pics of bear road kill from around Alpine, TX I believe. Texas is now part of an early suitability study of reintroduction of Louisiana black bears into East Texas. Every year we get some young males that wander out of Arkansas and Louisiana but no breeding takes place.

I used to work with a ranch in Katarina, TX (South Texas) that had a mounted jaguar on the mantle that was killed around the turn of the century (1900).

I knew you couldn't do it.

Now back to emulating dirtbags: Yep, you jaguar-luvin', high-rise livin', cabbage-headed flatlander ginks are just a bunch of ignorant "dufuses." "Thanks for nothing", you "sons of bitches and daughters of whores."

John G Brent, thank you for beating back the heinous people of self imposed infinate knowledge while they were taking a crap, drinking a cup of java and playing sudko;~)

Comes around, goes around. Think I'll go fishing now....brookies have been HOT!

Exactly.


Not to mention those feral hogs can serve to support cougars repopulating some of those southern states.




Casey

Are hogs good prey for lions? Bears were captured here and transported south in an effort to control hogs. It didn't work. They just have lots of bears and hogs now.

Oh crap, nevermind. I'm trying to play the role of a dumbass poaching dirtbag here; and it ain't easy!

Really goin' fishin' now.

Most of this thread has been a good one. When the Macho B story came out I had invested some time to research a great deal about the story and related Jaguar information.

Mudhen:

I also read about the drainages in Mexico approx 100 miles south of Douglas. I also read that the Northern Jaguar Alliance was working on an agreement with neighboring ranchers to set up cameras and pay $100 per picture with hopes of stopping the killings and getting a better idea of the size of the local population.


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As for old Macho B.... I did some digging around and was lucky enough to have a Game and Fish person talk with me at length, before this topic got hot. Some of the details were interesting. Macho B was definately on the decline. He was missing one uppper canine and the opposing lower canine was broken off at half length. As for his 120 pounds. it is a weight that would be appropriate for this region. Most sources say the weight range is 125 to 220 pounds for males. The weight is determined by prey in the region. I have read the Pantanel region of Brazil has recorded males of 300 pounds.

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I agree with Dennis there are more jaguars around that we might realize.

Elderly Russell Sprung told me a jaguar story from his youth near Sonita where the local ranchers tracked and killed one in the Santa Ritas. Another friend knew a guy that lived in Patagonia and had a mine operation where he saw one. Those kids near Nogales shot one with a shotgun years ago. I hope someday to get lucky and see one myself. (I did see a jaguarundi behind my house near Pima Canyon in Tucson 13 yrs ago)

If you can get your hands on the record book for big game in Az you'll see that a few jaguars were entered. A female was killed near the Grand Canyon, a male near Big Lake!

There is an old jaguar hide tacked to the ceiling in a general store in Quemado NM.

There WERE around in the past and PERHAPS there is enough wild country to have a few take up residence here.

I think there was some poor judgement with the capture of Macho B and his being euthinized. Enough has been said.

Please, DPole.
Don't short yourself...I have been on this thread waiting and I knew you would come back smarting off. It's just a time gig waiting for you. You mention in your sig an 800 number to call in poachers...and I agree with that. Turn them all in! Yet, Mccain did plead guilty, all on his own accord, instead of facing a jury of his peers. If I was 110% innocent, I would stand my ground in court.

To my way of thinking, the first time Macho B was caught it was within the scope of the federal permit, incidental. The day that cat died, with all the evidence about it being baited in, that is poaching a T&E species, in and of itself, no matter who you are.

Yet, dpole, I figured you knew about all of this, long before it ever happened, henseforth you were the one to call your 800 poaching charge against Mccain. You deserve a reward for your supersluth ops...

Next...Cattle Killer, Brett D....You out there??? Just say yes to this thread.

Final news?



http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...ied-jaguar-death-remain-hidden/17339983/

Amazing what lengths they have gone through to keep this hush. Emil was the only one prosecuted! What a joke.