Quite a few of us recently picked up Mauser M12 Extremes in .308, with the 20" barrel, for a smoking deal. We've been sharing some handloading lessons learned over on this thread,
Mauser M12 Extreme Opinions
but figured it's time to start a dedicated thread for this subject.
One thing that will help us rate the potential to share our data is information about our individual chambers, so we can get a feel for how consistent they are. Being production firearms, I would guess their chambers are finished with reamers that cut the throat in the same operation, so I am hoping we'll find them consistent in that dimension. Those of us who compared serial numbers found them to be close together so hopefully they're from a single production run.
Here are the Max OALs (bullet just lightly pressed into the lands such that it does not fall out when the muzzle is vertical) I measured for mine:

Nosler 165 BT, 165 AB, and 150 BT - 2.935"
Nosler 150 Part - 2.92" - 2.93" depending on the state of the exposed lead tip
Nosler 150 AB - 2.95"
Nosler 168 ABLR - 2.97"
Nosler 168 HPBT - 2.90"
165 Sierra Game King (probably 25-30 years old) - 2.90"
168 Sierra MK HPBT - 2.89"

What have others found in their measurements?

I'll post some data later when I get the time - I have yet to find "the load" I want. My goal is a load with a good hunting bullet in the 165 grain class (though 150 would be ok too) that will consistently shoot MOA or less and produce 2700 FPS from the 20" barrel, ideally with a powder that is pretty temperature resistant.
Up to now I have been concentrating on loads that will also fit in the ~ 2.85" OAL limitation of my magazine, but I have a Sauer 100 magazine (interchangeable) in 6.5x55 length inbound which will remove that limitation - should hold up to at least 3.2" OAL.

Looking forward to collaborating on some good loads for these fine rifles.

Cheers,
Rex

Try a 165-grain Partition over 45.5-46 grains of Varget over a CCI 200 primer.


Okie John

2700 with a 165/168 out of a 20" barrel may be a bit of a reach.

The load I listed above is right at 2,700 in a 22" barrel. TAC might go a bit faster.


Okie John

Thanks Sir, but I am finding it achievable while staying under published max(s).
2700 FPS is quite easy in my 20" M12 even a grain or two below max with PP 2000-MR.
In my 20" M12, I got 2739' with 49 grains/2000-MR and the Nosler 168 ABLR, but accuracy was not good.
In my 23" barreled '98 Mauser .308, 50 gr/2000-MR gives 2880' (really!) with the 165 BT, and excellent accuracy. 2000-MR seems to be a wonder powder with both 165 (and higher) in the .308, and 225 gr (and higher) in the 35 Whelen.

Back to the 20" M12 - Ramshot's max load of 51 grains of Big Game gives mine 2727' with the 165 BT. That load averaged .00053" Case Head Expansion (CHE) on the first firing in Lapua brass, and showed no additional CHE on subsequent loadings in the same cases, which is generally what you're looking for if using CHE as one of your pressure assessment tools.

45gr / Varget gives 2675' with the 165 BT, and that is a grain to a grain and a half below commonly used charges (Hodgdon's max is 46 - Mule Deer's go to load is 46.5), So I have no doubt it'll break 2700' as well. I've not shot above 45 gr yet though. But I don't have much Varget (hoping to save it for the 9.3x62, but do have an 8# on backorder), and I have plenty of Big Game, 2000-MR, and TAC. So if I can reach my goal with them, that'll be preferable.

Really glad to see the participation we're getting on this thread. I might as well list the one load I have ginned up that is actually significantly sub MOA (actually copied from the "most accurate .308 load ever" test):
168 SMK, 45/Varget, CCI250, Fed case, 2.88" (too long for the magazine, .010" off the lands). This put 7 of 8 shots inside 0.60". I pulled the 7th shot, opening it up to 1.33.
But this load doesn't meet 2 of my 4 objectives (hunting bullet, and 2700 FPS). It's got accuracy and temp stability. AND, it tells me there is nothing inherently inaccurate about my rifle - I just have to find "The Load."

Cheers,
Rex

How I wish I had some 165 Partitions!
Got most every other Nosler .308 - anybody want to swap 50 165 Parts for 50 "something else?"
Rex

Here's my work so far with Big Game.
First trip to the range with Big Game, snipped from our previous thread:
>>>>
I took 165 NBTs to the range loaded over Big Game on Wednesday. OAL was mag limited at 2.85", which put them .090" off the lands. Fed 215 primers, Lapua brass.
I took 48, 49, and 50 grains. Ramshot's max is 51 so I will also try that, as groups shrunk as charges increased. Three-shot groups.

48gr - 2556 FPS, SD 17, 1.29"
49gr - 2579 FPS, SD 12, 1.86"
50gr - 2619 FPS, SD 2, 1.25"

This makes 51 grains look promising. Also, I need to try the same loads with the 165 NAB.
<<<<
The next week I decided to try 51/BG. Here's what I got with it. For the record, I felt a little "off" this day, shooting -wise. Temp was 70-80F. 4-shot groups.
All loads were 2.85" OAL, New Lapua Brass (to take CHE readings), Fed 215.

51/BG, 165 BT - 2710 FPS average, 1.09" group. SD was 45, and this was entirely because the third round (of four) registered 95 FPS slower than the others on the Oehler 35P. Could have been a bad read. CHE was .00053"
51/BG, 165 AB - 2734 FPS, 2.41" group, SD was 4. CHE was .0008". This is a bit more than I prefer in a long-term use load.

So it seemed like 51/BG and the 165 BT had potential so I went to the range with 12 rounds loaded with the same load as above. 9 of them were new Lapua brass and 3 were the same cases I had measured the .00053" CHE on before - I was looking to see if there would be any additional CHE on those once fired cases, and to see if I could keep the good accuracy and avoid the one anomalous low chrono reading.
I got pretty large ES over the 12 rounds (which is unusual for Big Game) and the SD for 12 rounds was 39 FPS. The average speed was 2727 FPS. I may try standard primers, just for the heck of it. Also, maybe the 35P needs a new battery? I feel I may be getting some screwy readings.
I shot four 3-shot groups. The three groups with new Lapua brass were 1.38", 1.78", and 1.47". The group with the once fired brass was 1.26". Those three cases showed less than .0001" (not really measurable) additional CHE over the original .00053" CHE on first firing. So pressure is no big deal in this load and it is awfully close to all my criteria. I will start trying out some different seating depths and that may be "The Load."

Cheers,
Rex

Here's another observation:
I just added up my loads to date and, including both handloads and 19 of the Creedmoor Sports factory loads with the 167 Scenar and Lapua brass, I have 126 rounds down my barrel.
I have been using the Mule Deer "break in" technique of:

1. Take new rifle to range
2. Shoot new rifle 12-20 times doing sight-in and initial load development.
3. Clean barrel to bare steel.
4. Repeat 1-3.

I noted (with the Teslong borescope), when my barrel was new, that it was very, very, smooth. But running a patch through it it also had a lot of brown grunge in the bore, which others on our original thread also noted. I cleaned that out before starting the steps above.

I have noted (here's a news flash) that this barrel is "speeding up" a bit as it breaks in, and getting significantly easier to clean to bare steel between range trips. Nothing unusual here but good news all the same. Anybody else seeing the same?

The "Sauer 100" magazines in 6.5x55 length arrived. I put "Sauer" in quotes because, though I had seen an image online with the name Sauer embossed on the bottom, and expected that, these, happily, were unmarked, and the package listed them as generic to the Sauer 100, 101, and Mauser M-18. I reckon we can add M-12 to the list as they fit fine.

They actually sit a little more flush to the bottom of the rifle than the OEM mag.
Here is the extra length it gives. Can seat out to 3.2" + OAL.

The first thing I did was to grab 10 of the Creedmoor Sports factory rounds with the 167 Scenar in the Lapua brass and load up both of the new mags I bought, one with the rounds all the way aft, and the other full forward, as they might be after recoil.

I took them outside, put the safety in the middle position, and ran them through. All ten fed slicker than owl snot (that's an industry term).
So I took the load with the 165gr BT over 51gr Big Game, which had done the best previously but had been limited to 2.85", which put the ogive .085" off the lands. I loaded 3 each at .050, .025, and .005" off the lands respectively. The set at .050" off did this.

I will repeat it and see if it remains a sub MOA load, and also shoot more per group. I'd like to play some more with the 168 ABLR too, and see what sneaking it in closer to the lands does.
I loaded all these in Lapua cases that I had previously fired at least one or two times with the 51/BG load, so I could check again for any additional CHE over the .00053 average that load originally gave on virgin brass. Most were holding at .0001" more, and one had gotten up to .0002" more on the third firing, and it was one of the ones seated into the lands. So this continues to look like a load that, though at published max, will give plenty of firings before loosening pockets. The primers felt very tight on seating for this round of loads.
Speaking of primers I did switch over to the WLR (from my understanding, the hottest of the standard primers), from the Fed 215 I had been using. ES seems a little better but too early to tell.

Cheers,
Rex

P.S. Unlike many rifles, I have noticed this one shoots just great out of a squeaky clean bore. I have been cleaning to bare metal after each of these initial range sessions and it shoots fine right off - no need for "foulers." The group pictured above was the first of the day.

Excellent!

Great report and photos.

How full is the case with 51 grains of Big Game powder?

It's slightly compressed. IIRC, just barely above the neck-shoulder junction. I'll be loading some more of them soon and will try to remember to get a pic of the "fullness."
I decided to just keep shooting that load in the same ten cases so I can get some genuine data on how long they will hold up. The next round will be the 3rd or 4th loading with 51/BG depending on the individual case.

If the next trial with that same load that shot so well above continues to do so**, I will go back and try the same "everything" except swapping out 46/Varget and 49-50/2000-MR (both makers' published max). When I ran those two before I did not have a feel for what might be the optimum OAL. Now I just have a "hunch" what it might be, but will be gathering more data!

Cheers,
Rex

** when I read over this before hitting Post Reply I realized that was a pretty dumb thing to write. IF that same load keeps shooting under 1/2", I will not do ANYTHING else with that bullet. I will be DONE with load work for the 165 Nosler BT! Somebody else can test Varget and 2000-MR, LOL. I am not that good so I don't really expect it to. But if it does I will look forward to playing a little with the 168 ABLR. I don't think I will test any tougher bullets because I don't look at this rifle as more than a deer rifle (and the .308 165 BT is already a pretty tough bullet - real thick jacket base). When I get lucky enough to hunt elk, I have too many other rifles that are better than the .308 for that purpose.
Might fool around a little with the 150 Partition and 150 BT.

I have a hunt booked for BC (deferred from last year and likely again this year) for mountain goat, moose and elk (16 days) that I am now seriously considering bringing this rifle using the 168 gr TTSX. My 338-06 is good to go with the 185 gr TSX but it would be good to get this rifle out in the field. What are you using for optics and mounts? Also, where did you buy the magazines?

EdM,
That sounds like a real good hunt you have coming up - a dream hunt, in fact. I hope it goes great for you!
I bought the magazines from Chattanooga Shooting Supplies. I am an FFL and am registered with them - I don't know if they sell to the public. It is their item number BNS10502, at $45.66. Their were 19 of them in stock when I bought the three I ordered and they have 16 showing now, so I don't reckon they're flying off the shelves.
Just did a search for retail and there is ONE in stock for $53 at Wholesale Hunter
Seeing some other outfits in that price range too now, so I think you can find some.

Without any coordination at all SU35 and I both ended up mounting Burris Fullfield E1 4.5x14s on ours. To save weight, I skipped the nice steel rail that came with the rifle and just went with low Talley Lightweights and they're a perfect fit. I just learned that Burris will cut a custom turret to dial to range for under $50. Might try that, but with a 250 yard zero, the load above is predicted by the computer to be spot on the BDC tics in the E1 reticle at 300, 400, 500, and 600 yards.

Have you worked up loads for the 168 TTSX yet? I was just thinking about that bullet this morning wondering if I'll end up eating my words about not testing any tougher bullets for this rifle. That bullet is a true "kill anything you shoot at" choice.

Please share your loads here and anything else you learn about your rifle.

Good luck on that hunt!
Rex

EdM, et. al.
On an "FFL Not Required" item like magazines, I believe I can buy them through Chattanooga and have them sent to any address I want, So if anybody wants some of these 6.5x55-lenth mags and can't find them at retail, PM me and I'll see what I can do. When I ordered the three I incurred a $3 credit card fee and shipping was $10. So figure for two of them (seems like the right number to me to have a loaded back-up in my pocket) it'd be probably just under $105 shipped, which is actually cheaper than any of the retail prices I found.

Anybody that wants me to try to grab them a couple and have them sent to them, shoot me a PM and we can work it out. I'm pretty sure that'll work, and we know there are 16 available.

Cheers,
Rex

Rex,

PM sent on the mags. I am using the same scope in Talley LW's as well, but they are lows (already had them) and I cannot get the scope back far enough. I assume you are using mediums?

Make that 14, LOL

No, Mine are lows too, and I could actually get the scope back just a bit more than I have it now. Confirm you reversed the front mount - like the attached picture? Also that long LOP doesn't help. I just shortened mine, just an hour ago, and it is much better now.

I'll try that but mine were very near barrel contact is.

I just had one of those "doh" moments, looking through my Nosler #9. All along I hade been working off Ramshot's latest load guide for my Big Game data, and also referencing the comments on the thread Charlie Sisk started about how much he loves Big Game (which featured the .308). Both Mr. Sisk and Ramshot list 51 grains as max with the 165 SGK, and I had been using this max in the M12. I hadn't even realized Nosler listed Big Game in the most recent manual, and it was also their fastest powder.
Nosler's current .308 data
As you can see, they used 52.5 grains as max with their 165/168 and got a wicked 2910 FPS in their 24" barrel. Based on the .00053 CHE I already measured with my 51 grain charge, I'd not want to go much higher in my rifle, even though brass is holding up really well. I will be shooting this load for the 5th time in the same ten cases on my next trip out.
But there is the Nosler data for anyone who can use it.

On my most recent trip to the range yesterday with this rifle and load, 8 out of 10 shots nicely clustered sub-MOA, but one high and one low outlier opened the whole ten shots up to about 1.9 inches. Also the average speed dropped down to just under 2700, at 2689. I'll keep ya posted...
Rex

165/168 Bullets



VARGET

2.885 oal

Was able to finally shoot the M-12 and get sighted in.

I am sold on the rifle, very nice!

This was Mule Deer's load 46.5 of Varget shooting a 168 Nosler BT @ an average of 2,775 mv, ES of 10. 2.990 aol.
Not too bad for a 20" barrel.

https://imgur.com/3nSJ7Jd

2.990 OAL - nice to have those long magazines! That's a mighty fine load and group you shot partner.
Cheers,
Rex

What brass and primer did you use?

I used Winchester brass and a Remington primer.

Very nice Bob!

Thanks for the information guys. Thanks Rex for starting this thread.
I plan to use Varget and some 150's.

No Problem! I'm glad SU35 had a great day and shared his results. We shared the chamber throat information between ourselves (like what I put in the OP) and his rifle's throat seems to be mighty close to mine, regarding the OAL where the bullets touch the lands. And the velocities and groups he got on his first day out are a lot like mine. Makes me think all the rifles we all bought at that great sale might be pretty interchangeable on the data, if we're lucky.
Not sure if SU35 listed it but in our texting I learned he was .040 off the lands with the 46.5/Varget load under the 168 NBT. I've been using .050 off with the 165 NBT and might move it in a touch. Also, I never went above 45/Varget before shifting over to Big Game. Now I plan to shoot a few with 46 or 46.5 Varget.
Also, I think I may need to give 2000MR another try in this rifle. In my Mauser '98 .308 it does mighty good.

Looking forward to seeing some range results from the other folks that picked up these cool rifles.

Cheers,
Rex

Fellas,
I'm struggling with mine. So far, I've only tried Hornady 150 Interlocks with both IMR4064 and RL-15. In both instances, groups were horrendous. I'm talking 2-3 MOA. I went back and measured the throat on mine. With 165 Nosler BTs, they touched the lands at 2.958 OAL and 2.327 BTO. With the throat being this long, I can't even shoot 150s and have enough of the bullet supported in the case. I was seating them at 2.745 OAL which was a long jump. This was also the case with the Hornady 165 BT Interlocks. Therefore, I think Nosler BT 165s and heavier will shoot better. I wish these things had a shorter throat. A buddy has a M18 and it cuts holes.

By chance have you tried a Sierra 150?

devnull,
Sorry you're having trouble with that long jump to the lands. Let me know if you want me to hook you up with one (or more) of those longer magazines I talked about on the first page of this thread. I can get them wholesale and have them shipped direct to you from the dealer, and we can settle up with PayPal. PM me if interested. SU35 and I are both getting the best results with loads that are too long to fit in the OEM mag. PM me if interested - same for the rest of you all, of course too.

Rex

Trex,
Thank you. It just so happens that I ordered one from Midwest Gun works today. I have a box of old Nosler 165s (100ct box) that I plan on seating out to 2.900 with some Varget. I'm anxious to see if that cures it.

devnull,
What are they asking for those magazines at Midwest and what is their item number for them? I just went to their site and I could not find them.
Thanks,
Rex

Maybe a little off-topic, but this link below is good food for thought.

The Scenar is a hard bullet as I have shot them into armor plate out to 500 yds and made indentions into the plate when all other hunting bullets splashed it.

They appear to be a good weight for the 308 Win and good hunting bullet.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...85786/all/Expansion_characteristics_of_t

Pat Sinclair's load "308(green rifle)
155gr Lapua scenar
Lapua brass
45.5grs Varget
Wolf(Tula)LRM primer
2.810" coal
2950fps."





I suspect your powder is the problem, not the bullet weight.

Later this week I plan on trying out the Lapua 155 Scenars in Lapua brass using VN and Varget powders.


And for Kicks LeveRevolution is going to get a tryout.

I find it hard to think of 4064 and RL15 as problem powders for a 150 in a 308.

They were $44.08. Here's the link:

https://www.gunsmidwest.com/blaser-sauer-100-magazine.html

Also, an update on my M12. I contacted Mauser and requested the action screw torque settings. It is 53 inch-lbs. I checked mine and my front action screw was loose. We'll see if that has an bearing on the lack of accuracy I'm seeing.

Folks,
Since I took care of EdM with his longer magazines, my distributor has changed their policy and I can't have stuff shipped direct to others anymore. But they were a dollar more for these magazines anyway than the link devnull provided here. So I have to retract my former offer to help folks out and encourage anyone needing them to grab them from the outfit devnull linked to.

Cheers,
Rex

You're probably right, but I will give the same load a go in my rifle and see what happens.

What I have found is I can't get 150 and 165 grain Interlocks to group as well for me as they had in years past. This is across several 308s known to be good shooters.

I'm posting this as a velocity reference only...These were shot in my M12 (20" barrel):

Caliber: 0.308 OAL: 2.160 BTO / 2.745 OAL
Brass: Hornady Powder: RL-15
Bullet: Hornady 150 Interlock Primer: CCI 200
Case Prep: F/L and no trim. Neck graphited. Temp: 76° F.
Notes:
45.4 gr 45.8 gr 46.2 gr 46.6 gr 47.0 gr 47.4 gr 47.8 gr

2596 2666 2702 2750 2754 2773 2844
2642 2667 2673 2723 2755 2735 2806
2615 2666 2675 2711 2749 2767 2788
2618 2643 2690 2733 2734 2799 2802
ES 46.0 24.0 29.0 39.0 21.0 64.0 56.0
AV 2617.8 2660.5 2685.0 2729.3 2748.0 2768.5 2810.0
SD 18.9 11.7 13.6 16.5 9.7 26.3 23.9

FWIW, Finn Aggard wrote up his experience with a short barrel 308,

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...2406/all/finn-aagaard-shots-with-the-308

He stated a preference for the 150s. I've settled on Speer 150's with IMR 4166 in my 20" Steyr Pro Hunter, getting 2800 fps with 48.0 grains, consistently 2" @ 200 yd zero.

Interesting... My "laboratory" may not be as sophisticated as yours, however I am also shooting a stock of recent Hornady 150's and am interested in current manufacturing accuracy results. What is your current hunting 150 grain preference?

Devnull,
Just to make sure we're clear, are those fired in your 20" M12?
If so, that 47 grain charge looks like it's got some potential. Maybe some OAL experimentation might help/

Thanks,
Rex

I still have most of a box of older Hornady 150 flat base Interlocks that I'm conserving. The 150 grain SST shoots pretty well too.

I've had excellent results from the Nosler 150 grain Ballistic Tip. Lately it has been my 150 grain hunting bullet.

The 150 grain Sierra Game King and Pro Hunter are great shooters too.

Yes, all shot in my M12 Impact with 20" barrel.

These were the same bullets but using MR4064 and seated out a little father. IMR4064 produced higher velocity than RL-15. Chrono'ed with a LabRadar:

Caliber: 0.308 OAL: 2.173 Comp. / 2.757 OAL
Brass: Hornady Powder: IMR 4064
Bullet: Hornady 150 Interlock Primer: CCI 200
Case Prep: F/L and trimmed. Neck graphited. Temp: 62° F.
Notes:
46.2 gr 46.6 gr 47.0 gr 47.4 gr 47.8 gr

2763 2791 2825 2813 2859
2757 2792 2811 2829 2851
2756 2787 2812 2846 2837
2751 2773 2820 2844 2857
ES 12.0 19.0 14.0 33.0 22.0
AV 2756.8 2785.8 2817.0 2833.0 2851.0
SD 4.9 8.8 6.7 15.3 9.9

3 shot groups to check out potential, Next strings will be 5 shots to see consistency.

Nosler 200 AB
Win brass
Rem Primer
MR-2000 48.0
COAL 2.955/2.940 .15 Off the lands
MV 2,592/2,603/2,608 (No signs of pressure)
https://imgur.com/gNve601


Nosler 200 PT
COAL 2.930/2,900 .30 off the lands
MR-2000 48.0
MV 2,626/2,610/2,615 (Showed classic signs of pressure I plan on dropping .5 grain)
https://imgur.com/JoCy7K0


Lapua Scenar 155
Lapua brass
Rem primer
COAL 2.895/2.890 .5 off the lands
Varget 47.5
MV 2,849/2,857/2,855
The flyer was cold bore shot
https://imgur.com/PGFulPD


Lapua Scenar 155
Lapua brass
Rem primer
LEVERevolution 48.0
MV 2,806/2,804/2,805
shot just over an inch, 1.2"
no pic


Horn 220 ELD-X
Win brass
Rem Primer
MR-2000 45.0
COAL 2.925/2.910 .15 off the lands
MV 2,441/2,418
https://imgur.com/I8TO6jy


Nosler 125 BT's shot horrible with a 5" group.
Win brass
Rem primer
Tac 50.5
MV 3,137/3,173
no pic

NOTE:

I blew a primer with this load shooting 155 Scenars.

You might cross check the base to ogive measurements on the old vs. new interlocks. They have changed that dimension before and it took me a while to sort it out.

Based on SU35's success with Varget, I took a dozen rounds to the range today, 6 each of the 165 BT and the 168 ABLR over 46 grains for Varget. Lapua cases and WLR primers. He and I had talked earlier about how the Big Game load seemed to have a very "sharp" muzzle blast and recoil, compared to Varget, so I had to check it out. Before I had only loaded up to 45 gr Varget and only for a group or two, and it shot a bit under 2700 FPS.
I have not yet measured the groups but they were OK. The interesting thing is that 46/Varget consistently gave me 2750 FPS in my 20" M12 ( a little faster than the 51/BG load I've been working with) but the muzzle blast and recoil were noticeably more pleasant - not as sharp. I am going to play around with this and the 168 ABLR (which it shot best today) with some seating depth variations, because this shows real promise. Varget seems "dirtier" than Big Game, but how big a deal is that?
BTW, my M12 has a very smooth barrel and barely copper fouls at all. I get plenty of powder residue and carbon but copper is gone after two soaks with Wipeout.

Cheers,
Rex

It's not in my book, accuracy prevails.

I think MD load is the winner overall here. I also want to develop the 200 AB load in my rifle.

Rex,
Where did Mule Deer state that 46.5 gr of Varget was his pet load with a 165? The only article I've seen where he mentions 46.5 gr of Varget as a pet load is with a 150gr AccuBond:

https://loaddata.com/articles/PDF/BenchTopics%2036%20150dpi1.pdf

I ran Gordon's Reloading Tool with 46.5 gr of Varget behind a 165 BT and 2.850 OAL in the M12 and it was pushing 65K PSI. That's pretty stout.

I'll have to defer to SU35 on that question, as my notes as I look through them now show him using 46.0. I reckon I read it somewhere (46.5) and SU35 thought the same and mentioned that earlier too.
Bob - do you recall the source on that? I don't reckon on going over 46.0 myself but somehow thought the same as you regarding MD's max.
I have a notebook where I record loads recommended online and not necessarily from manuals. I'm looking at it right now in the .308 Win section and I see (as you alluded to) a load of 46.5/Varget under the 150 NAB with 2900 FPS listed with an unspecified barrel length, and "(JB)" next to that note.
On another page I have the note that "Barsness uses 46/Varget for everything from 150 to 168 grains in the .308" - obviously something he wrote somewhere and I copied down.
Maybe I am to blame for an error and miscopied the 46.5/Varget with 165 grain from my notes when I made the post you quoted above.
We'll see what SU35 has to say, or if his source was ME. In which case that's my bad.

Good question and point devnull.

Rex

Here's the reference to 46/Varget for everything from 150-168 grains. Note it is from 2008.
Mule Deer's 46 Varget Post

46.5 of Varget /150s is my load in my Savage 99.

off topic, but why in the hell do people respond and end up buying a rifle or a scope with names like Extreme attached to them?

Is the average consumer that dumb? or does names like Extreme make someone really think they are out there on the Edge?

The Edge of What? and what makes a rifle with a name like Extreme on it.. extreme as compared to what?

Do they sell more of them with the name Extreme attached to it, then they would sell with just calling it a Mauser Model 12?

I guess a 98 Mauser just sounds dull and boring, just like a Model 70 Winchester or a Remington 700....

Just a pet peeve of mine, on how society thinks....How bout a Model 1 Super Ultra Super Short Magnum Extreme?
does that motivate anyone? or does it sound as stupid to anyone else as it does to me? Fits right in with the world of Video Games in my book.

Being sort of practical is probably a weak point of many in my personality...

Not trying to hijack thread here Flame suit on for those that want to fire away.....

I agree it's a dumb name that is inherently repellent to me for the same reasons you listed. I can assure you those of us who recently picked one up did so because it was a $1500+ MSRP rifle being blown out for $507 shipped not because of the name.
I think the name refers to the synthetic stock being suited for extreme weather, I guess, since the Model 12 is also available in a very nice wood stock. I only included it in the title of the thread because I wanted a place to discuss loading specifically for this 20" barreled, free-floated model that a number of us recently purchased.

Cheers,
Rex

I have no issue with the term 'Extreme' it immediately spoke to me of taking on extreme weather just as the M70 EW supposedly does.

It is a marketing word that gets noticed, whether sour grapes or sweet. So far the rifle is sweet, and I'm glad I bought one as it performs up to its name.

I've seen a couple references lately to Varget getting along particularly well with CCI 200 primers. At the risk of having too many variables at once, I might add that in to my load work with the Extremely Extreme Mauser M12 as I have more of those than any other LR primers, and have not yet paired them with Varget in the .308. Worked great together in the 9.3x62 though.
Thoughts on that combo?

Rex

They work well together for me.

Well ya know Rex, I can't think of a better answer than that. This kinda struck me as some of the stupid names of things marketing dept put out there..
I read this and posted after just seeing a TV commercial for a Tactical Flash light....I guess being painted flat black, makes it Tactical...

Better than a camouflage painted flash light.

The guns on sale were Model 12 Impacts, not Extreme. Supposedly made for long distance. I'm not sure what makes them quantify for "long-distance" other than a rail.

[OFF TOPIC WARNING!] Man that's for sure! Flashlight - the most inherently non-subdued item in our gear. For things that are on my "exterior" when I am in the field, I don't mind if they're camo, or just some other solid dark subdued color (my home state of Arizona doesn't have blaze orange requirement so you can actually get some good out of camo - when I hunt Montana, wearing a blaze vest, what difference does it make?). My Badlands bino harness, for instance, is a dark grey, and it cost half as much as their camo model. And I have yet to have un unfilled tag since I bought it three years ago, so that must be OK. But for years now, stuff that rides in my pack that I only use AFTER the game is down (or the day's hunting is over), is as bright as I can find it, blaze orange preferably. Knives, saws, rope, firestarter/lighters, first aid pack, etc.
I hate having to look for "lost" items when I am finished field dressing and ready to start the drag/pack (or just hiking out after dark).
Hijack concluded - going to go load up some .308s with the 168 ABLR, Varget, and CCI 200, and will try them out tomorrow.

Let's hear some more range reports on the M12s!
Re

Oops, I must have had a real senior moment - gotta go check my records.
Thanks,
Rex

'"Upon further review..."

I had to go take a look at the tags on the box mine came in just to get a check on my apparent dementia. I think we're OK here.
Devnull, we're gonna have to call it a draw (at least).

Cheers,
Rex

P.S. Seafire's gonna be even more upset now that it's not just "Extreme", it's "Extreme Impact Black"

Wrong.

For conventional 308 loads with 150s I like 47.0 grs of imr4320. This would be a top end aka max load. For something more mild 40.5grs of imr-4895 is great for everything except long range.

For an unconventional load my all time favorite is 37.0 grs of imr-4895 powering the cast Gaschekt Lee 309-170 bullet lubed with my homemade beewax formula. Finished gas-checked bullets weight 180grs. Just fired 5 of these into a .91" group at 100yds. Velocity is around 2400fps and leaves a shiny waxed barrel after shooting. This load will make a barrel last forever and the bullets cost me nothing

Correction. I didn't make the gaschecks

I stand corrected. I was basing it on Mauser's site in that they differentiated between the Impact and the Extreme. I laugh on the Seafire comment as we have a double whammy now, "Extreme Impact". :-) I wish their accuracy warranted the title.

Shot this today
Consistent load that just keeps producing.
My Burris target turret is based on this load.

Nosler 168 BT
Lapua brass
Rem Primer
Varget 46.5
Velocity
2,769
2,758
2,779
2,752

https://imgur.com/hsAh9kx

Same load shot a couple of weeks ago
https://imgur.com/CknNrA9

Nice.

Don't forget the "Black" part, as in Black Ops, and all such tacticoolness.
Kidding aside, Seafire's right about the names that get tossed around by marketing these days.
That said, these are nice rifles. Mine is telling me it really wants to shoot but I'm just not finding the magic recipe. My Varget loads are very consistent velocity-wise, but I'm too often getting 1.5-2.0 MOA. I'm going to try moving the ABLRs even further off the lands, as I get good accuracy from Creedmoor Sports factory Scenar loads, and they are WAY off the lands.

I've posted my 10 shot group in the past, maybe here. First loads, no development. This with the 168 gr ELD-Match. Note that the first three of that group were just under a half inch. Two opened it to 3/4" and the remaining five took the group to about 1". For $500 I am thinking it will head out for pronghorn this year.

My M12 is now shooting excellent. It turns out the front action screw was loose. After speaking with Mauser and torquing to 53 in-lbs, the gun is cutting holes at 200 yards. My load was:

- Win Brass
- Nosler 165 BT
- CCI 200
- 45.6 gr Varget
- 2.190 BTO / 2.820 OAL
AV: 2650
ES: 19

The other node that shot really tight was the 44.4 gr node.

Sweet

Ordered the extended magazine today. Thank you for posting that.

Going to start loading 165 grain A-Max's tomorrow

I have some 155 Scenars on the way, and just scored three boxes of the 168 grain Ballistic Tips that shot so well for SU-35.
Will report.

Rex

Curious on those 155 Scenars, as I have a couple boxes.

My rifle liked 45.5 grains of Varget with the 168 NBT today. The target on the left is .040 off the lands - the one on the right is .020 off.
Will have to see if this is repeatable and fire 5 shot groups.
[EDITED to add: I also shot 46 grains with both of those OALs and that charge was not as accurate.]

Cheers,
Rex

Excellent!

Good report!

Greetings.
Today I reshot the group with the 168 NBT and 45.5/Varget that grouped so tight last week, and I tried the 155 Scenars for the first time using (what I believe to be) Pat "Scenarshooter"'s load - also 45.5/Varget. I seated the 168 BT .020 off the lands and tried the first 3 Scenars at .020 off, and .005 off for the second 3 (which is what I think Pat uses).
You can compare the 168 photo to the one above from last week. The first shot landed right in the middle of the sub 1/2 MOA group from last week, but I pulled the second shot right, and called it real time. When shot #3 also landed right on POI from last week I figured I was good to go, and decided to shoot the second three rounds into the same target. But those three opened up to 1.38. These final 3 shoots were the fifth group I'd fired today, if that means anything. [EDIT: I fired the second Scenar group in between the two 168 BT groups] My hold felt just fine for those shots. Velocity was consistent with last week 2716 vs. 2722. See the pic.

The Scenars showed promise, both seating depths were sub-MOA, and supports what I had read that Scenars are not fussy about OAL. Velocities were about 2765, and extreme spread/SD were good. See pics.

Anybody else have any updates on their loading for these rifles?

Who's planning to hunt their M-12 Extreme this fall? I still haven't decided.

Cheers,
Rex

Those Scenars sure show a lot of promise. I'm still not comfortable using that bullet for hunting like others on this forum do.

It's been way too hot here to shoot, but I did recently buy 2 boxes of 165 Grain Nosler BT bullets the other day to try out. My buddy uses those exclusively daily in his .308 and says no other bullet he has shot gives him better killing performance. I trust a guy that kills animals daily for his job

yes, I will be using my rifle this fall in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan

Tag

I took the 155 Scenars up to book max levels yesterday with both Varget and PP 2000-MR in my M-12. I had used 2000-MR before in my 23" barreled 98 Mauser .308, and was familiar with the very impressive speeds it achieves in that cartridge, and it delivered the same in the M-12's 20" barrel. Alliant got in the mid 2900's with the three 155 grain bullets in their published data but I can't find a citation for barrel length. That's consistent with my results in the 23" barreled M98, as well as the 2892' the 20" M-12 delivered.
I stepped up to 46.5/Varget* and 50.5/2000-MR with the 155 Scenar seated .020 off the lands in Lapua brass with Federal 215 Match primers.
Velocities were 2810' and 2892' respectively. Accuracy was similar at 0.88" and 0.92" for three shots each. Pics attached.
My gut says to go with the Varget load as its ES and SD were a fair bit better than the 2000-MR, though 2000-MR had an 80 FPS speed advantage. Also, I am very confident in the temperature stability of Varget but just don't know enough about 2000-MR's stability (though it is the powder in my go-to hunting load for the 35 Whelen AI).
Based on the impressive results on the "Deceased by Scenar" thread, I am comfortable that this will be a satisfactory hunting bullet, so maybe I am finished in my search for "the load" in my M12. It meets all the criteria I set for "the load" when I started this thread. Of course I still need to load up a larger quantity and confirm consistency. I'll follow up next week.

Still hoping to hear what others are achieving with their M-12s. I hope what I'm posting may help you.

Cheers,
Rex

*[EDIT: Nosler's published max for Varget with 150-155 grain bullets is 46.5. Earlier today I went through several other manuals and found four references to Varget max for 155 gr bullets from 47 to 48 grains. AFAIK, Lapua doesn't publish a load for their Scenars using Varget. So while I am confident 46.5 is safe, it might not actually be max. close enough for me though.]

Lapua LR Case, Lapua 155 Scenar, 46.5/Varget, F215M, .020" off the lands (2.90" COAL)

Short version of this week's results: Ten rounds in 1.32", with the first 3 in a half inch and 8 of them in one inch.
Velocity was 2807 FPS with an SD of 6 for these ten shots. Last week's velocities were 2810 FPS with an SD of 3. Combining both weeks together gives velocity of 2808 FPS and an SD of 5 for 13 shots - getting close to statistical significance on the SD.

Long version: Yesterday I went back to the range with ten identical rounds of the 46.5/Varget, 155 Scenar load described above. I'd cleaned my M-12 after last week's session, so I fired three rounds of factory ammo to pre-foul the bore before shooting these ten.
I was off to a great start with the first two rounds going through the same hole, and #3 landing a half inch to the right, all right on desired POI of 2.2" high at 100 yards.
Then #4 went a bit high/left, and #5 went right back into the same hole as #1 and #2, putting four rounds in a half inch, and five in an inch. I fired the second five rounds on a new target and that group opened up a bit, with rounds 1-3 cutting a 1.32" triangle. Happily, 4 and 5 landed inside those three, and drawing a composite group of all ten showed the five rounds of the first 1.00" group were all inside the 1.32" second group.

I think I can live with this for this fall.

Cheers,
Rex

I am in the final sight-in and transitioning from the bench to the bipod and field position practice phase with this rifle, since I'd settled on the Varget load above for this fall. I ordered a custom dial from Burris for that load and it was done in less than a week, and is in the mail now. That said...

I realized that since going to the 155 Scenar from the 165/168 NBT, I hadn't given Ramshot TAC another try, so I did that this week, in addition to the other work. I found no data for TAC with the 155 Scenar, but searching the data and others' posts online I decided to try 45.5, 46.0, and 46.5 grains. This is based on the following max loads with each bullet maker's 155 gr target bullets:
Nosler 46.0 for 2996'
Sierra 46.9 for 2900'
Barnes 46.6 for 2904'
Ramshot published the following for these 155 gr. bullets:
155 Berger 45.6 for 2883'
155 AMAX 45.1 for 2851'
155 Sierra 45.7 for 2874' (I found this interesting. Probably represents a difference between the test barrels they used and Sierra themselves used.)

Short version, 46.5/TAC in my M-12 put three 155 Scenars under a half inch at 2849 FPS.
I used a Fed 215 primer based on Mule Deer's recommendations with the Ramshot powders in general and his TAC results in the .358 Win. OAL was 2.90, .020 off the lands.
The attachment shows the results. All three were sub-MOA, with the max load giving the best accuracy. Also noteworthy is that a composite of all three groups shows all impacts from 46 and 46.5 grains landing inside the three from 45.5 grains - a nice tendency. IOW, the composite is a 9-shot group under 1 MOA. The ES and SD are not as good as the Varget load, however.
Sample size is very small but I will shoot 46.5/TAC some more. I may end up doing some math to see how far off the POI will be at range if I end up using this load (MV of 2849 FPS) versus the POI of the 2808 FPS I had Burris cut the new dial for. Shouldn't be too far off.

Cheers,
Rex

If I ran the data right the difference is 3/4 inch drift (10 MPH crosswind) and 2.5" drop at 600 yards. I don't reckon I'd shoot this load at more than 500 regardless of accuracy, since that's where it drops below 2000 FPS. At 500 the drop difference is only an inch and a half.
Rex

I took 10 rounds each of the 46.5/TAC and 46.5/Varget loads with the 155 Scenars to the range this morning. I shot all the Varget loads at 200 yards off the bipod and they are sub MOA still (0.85 MOA average) so I plan to stick with them for hunting this fall, based on their low ES and Varget's proven temperature stability.
But the TAC load really does show promise. I shot two three-shot groups at 100 yards off the bench rest, with a slight scope adjustment in between, then shot a 4-shot group at 200 yards.
The 100 yard groups are attached, and a sample size now of three 100 yard groups averages 0.55 MOA. These were all off the bench rest.
I shot the 4-shot TAC group at 200 yards off the bipod and it went 1.64" (0.79 MOA). I was able to chrono 7 of the 10 shots with TAC today and they averaged just 1 FPS slower than last week. SD was the same (12), which is worse than the Varget load. That said, it IS looking like this TAC load is a bit more accurate in my rifle than the Varget.

Good hunting folks - I look forward to hearing how your M-12's did for you.

Cheers,
Rex

Took the M-12 to Montana the last two weeks, planning to use it for my Mule Deer B-Tag (I also had an Antelope tag for which I used the 6.5 CM and a Whitetail B-Tag for which I used my old Win M-94 30-30). My .308 load was the 155 Scenar over 46.5/Varget that I have beaten to death in the previous posts.
I had not cleaned the M-12 since the final range session in Tucson, where I sighted it in for 200 yards (the max my range goes to). Upon arriving at the hunt area, I set up a target at 250 yards and dialed the scope to that setting to confirm zero and tracking. I planned to carry the rifle set for 250 yards for the optimum point blank range, then dial if needed for longer than 300 yards. Test shots were prone off the bipod. It was still sub MOA and pretty much right on for POI. There was a very light right crosswind.

I shot my mulie doe late in the morning of the opening day from 118 yards after glassing up the group of a buck and several does up in the head of a canyon from about 1150 yards out and then making a long and circuitous stalk. She was facing almost directly towards me with her lower chest obscured by brush. I center-punched the spine at the base of the neck, and she dropped immediately and never twitched. The exit wound is visible in the picture.

I hope others are having a good season with their M-12s. I look forward to some success pics and more posts of handload results.

Cheers,
Rex

Bumping this thread up.
I'm just now getting my M12 out and realized I don't have a pictinny rail.
Anybody have one they like to sell? In the mean time I ordered some Tally rings.

Rem280,
Did the rail not come with it in the box? Mine (and I think most of the others who bought theirs on that big sale) had it in the box but not attached to the rifle.
I'm not using mine now but since the receiver of the M12 is the same as the M98, and I have a lot of M98 Mausers, I'd like to hang onto it in case I ever need it on another.
I hope you find one.
Cheers,
Rex

It wasn't in the box. Tallys are working OK at the moment

I'm using Talley LWs too. And I have recently learned some good lessons on bedding these bases to the receiver, and the scope to the rings. Going to give it a try on this rig and see if it tightens groups down even more than they are already.