Puma Mod. 92 Lever in 45 colt. I have been working up a hotter load for hunting with the goal of around 1500 FPS with a 225 gr HDY FTX.

The rifle was super solid secure in a lead sled, and produced downward stringing and veering to the left groups consistently. First three shots were typically acceptable groups then it went downhill from there. Powder was 26+ grains of H110.

Switching loads using Unique or 231, it tightened the groups right back without letting the barrel cool down but at about 350-500 fps slower.

Could it be the powder itself is the variable to making the rifle group like this?

I would like to use this load if the groups did not string.

Junk the lead sled and try again.

I did shoot a group without the sled, same thing.

I am damn sure no levergun guru...but in accuracy testing cast bullet loads, one thing I have found may help. Use sand bags, the front bag positioned clear back on the front of the receiver frame...let the forearm wood just hang out there in space with no influence. This is not fun on hard kickers...but once you develop a uniform repeatable consistent technique, you will be finally testing the load instead of bench technique or vibration dampening. Try it. Almost any rifle with a two piece stock may benefit. Then, if you find the forearm is influencing your groups unduly..you can address that by itself with the usual tweaking, floating, bedding, shimming tricks.

Flint, thanks, but this only happens with this one load. Groups fine with softer loads.

Could just be the barrel harmonics with that load. Guns are like women. No accounting for what they like. If a woman doesn't like it, she doesn't like it and there's no point trying to reason with her. Just feed her what she does like.

I can't imagine a more well thought out and reasonable explanation! This is priceless.

All the top-end loads I shoot in Marlin 44 Mag will string during longer strings of shots. I also notice that the first 3 or 4 will often group around MOA with a load it likes. So I don't worry about it. That's plenty of accuracy. I also don't load more than 5 in the magazine if I want MOA-type accuracy when hunting, as it will shoot low with 10 in the mag.

In a Marlin 1895 45-70, vertical stringing was a huge problem until I put a small rubber gasket on the magazine hanger near the muzzle. I suspected the hanger was binding and putting downward pressure on the barrel as it got warmer from each shot.

I have read that using a "lead sled" is a good way to cause the butt stock to split on lever action rifles. I have no personal experience, only what I read...

I assume this is a hunting rifle. If so, you shouldn’t need more than three shots in a string. Honestly, you shouldn’t need more than one.

If it shoots the first couple where you want it to, load it up and go hunt.

As a famous gun writer and "Rifle Loony" once said. "I test hunting loads in 3 shot groups, and varmint loads in 5 shot groups".

308ld, exactly right!

This sight won't let me post another picture, but I spent yesterday afternoon doing another round of groups, this time 3 round groups. With the hot load using 110, first two touch and the 3rd drops about 1 inch, so about a little over a 1" group at 50 yards and completely acceptable for hunting. The softer loads using Unique and 231, groups tightened up to just under 1" at 50 yards.

So the hotter load, being the powder or some other variable, causes the 3rd round to drop and start stringing.

The next round will be at 100 yards but where I use this rifle that would be an uncommon occurrence having a shot that far.

I think I have found my go to loads for this little brush gun.

The 450 Bushmaster in a Savage 99 is what I use for shots out to 250 yards.

Pretty simple, you are heating up the chamber, each shot with a hot chamber, looser tolerances, lost velocity...

with a right hand twist, you loose velocity, your shots will drop down and too the left...
faster velocity with each load they would be Up and to the right....

How does that "famous" writer feel about lead sleds, or testing loads at 50 yards?

Hey Seafire, don’t know if it’s that simple but will state that I have a 25.06 that with a clean tube the first shot goes 1” low, 1” left on the first shot. Subsequent shots go back to point of aim and stay there unless I clean it. Just that first clean bore shot which has never bothered me as I don’t hunt with a clean bore.

😳 ouch

I'm not sure I buy that. I shot NRA High Power and High Power Sporting rifle for 40+ seasons. M-1, M-1A, and bolt gun, filled 3 Riflemans Scorebooks at least, with weather and sight dope. If any given rifle walked poi in the rapid fire stages, the bedding was corrected until it didn't. In matches of 80 rounds plus sighters...velocity increased as round count increased, presumably because of fouling.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the question the OP had. There is no bedding in a lever gun. The barrel is the opposite of free-floating. The tubular magazine creates downward pressure on the barrel. Perhaps, as the barrel heats up, and the metal expands, the unheated tubular magazine will pull more on the barrel. Sometimes, it's drastic. Lower-power loads show this less, because the barrel gets heated less, but if you fire enough of them, they also string. I've seen this several times. In both pistol-cartridge lever guns, and rifle-cartridge guns.

I can’t say. Just quoting his test procedure for hunting and varmint loads.

What is your opinion of lead sleds, and load testing at 50 yards?

Load testing at 50 yards is great. You get really tiny groups on anything you try. 😳
Just ask Cooper. 😀

25 yds. is even better! Grin

One thing is certain, if you sight in your lever gun using a lead sled, if you shoot offhand, your shots are going to land noticeably higher.

Well Flintlocke YOUR opinion and insight matters to me.. you've been around the block a couple dozen times or more..

But what I was stating is what I have seen in pretty ALL of my bolt action rifles. and I know people's mileage may vary, and different types of rifles will perform different.. I've shot M1s but have never owned one.. I do own 5 or 6 lever actions... but with each of those ( Marlin and Model 94s) I've seen the same thing with them.. If nothing else, when the chamber heats up some, they will start stringing instead of increase elevation, up and to the right.

Well Swifty, we all should know that rifles are an entity unto themselves. Always a couple individual ones that have their own patterns...
I've had some with barrels, that the first with a clean bore does one thing, and then afterwards all the other shots do something different, at least until I let the chamber heat up...

But most of my range time, I am a single shot kind of guy.. same with most of my varmint shooting...

That is an AMAZING amount of outright Dumbfhuqktitude,but the punctuation is soothing...where did you learn that? Hint.



EXTRA Stupid Points awarded,for the innate ability for botching "too". Hint.

Bless your poor poor(literally) heart,for doing your BEST though.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!................

Seafire, This whole conversation has had the effect of making me wonder if I have any idea what I'm talking about...family will be here tomorrow, I'll have my son bring his Win. '94, .30-30 assault rifle, I have a bunch of ammo loaded up, and we will just put 10 or 20 on paper and see if a trend develops. If it walks when hot, I'll report back to you guys. Yup, it's just one rifle, but if that walking is a trait of tube mag lever guns you'd think it will show up.

https://enoughgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11991

DZNN, that post is super helpful! Thank you.