Which bullet do you all recommend? I've shot 120 and 140 grain TSX, 120 grain Ballistic Tips, 139 Hornady soft points, and 140 grain Accubonds, all with acceptable accuracy out of my 700 Mountain Rifle.

I know about any bullet you put in the vitals will take an antelope down, but which one would you all recommend?

If they all are accurate I'd shoot the 120 Ballistic Tips. They'll probably shoot the flattest and you just don't need a premium bullet for speed goats. Brett

Yep...whatever shoots best will kill them goats.

By loading up the TSX's though you won't have to worry about a new load for bigger stuff.

J

I'd shoot the 120 NBT's.

Cheesy, do you have a Mule Deer tag also, if so then TSX. It will get you both.

6.5 SWEDE.

You've got a very good group of bullets there, you really couldn't go wrong with any of them for deer and or lopes.

Dober

Dober you are a big 7-08 fan! I just about owned one today went to buy a cleaning rod and there was a Kimber select grade 7-08 sitting there, I picked it up and almost did not put it back down again. I have about 1000 308 cases so sanity made me put it back down...what a nice gun....

My family and I have taken a number of pronghorns with 7mm-08s and 120 grain ballistic tips, but as several have noted, any of those bullets would work just fine.

I was leaning towards the ballistic tip, depending on the powder, all the bullets are going into under an inch group (heat that thin barrel up though and things start opening up), but the ballistic tips have brought in the tightest groups, didn't know but what it might be a little on the too explosive side though.

Ballistic tip for Wyoming antelope, now to decide what to use on Kansas deer, probably just the cheap Hornady soft point, or maybe go with an Accubond, but then again, those TSX's are sitting on the shelf as well.....decisions.

While I've never used it on antelope, I shoot 140 gr Ballistic Tips in mine. Fantastic accuracy, and fine performance on deer.

120 bt at 3100 fps. Hammers them!

Not too tough to neck those 308's down though....

Dober

That 120 NBT is a tough little bullet. It's made with the same jacket they use to make the 140 so it's pretty thick down toward the base. I've never seen one recovered from a game animal... not even out of a Blacktail buck that was shot at 40 yards with a 120 NBT out of a 7Mag in the 3600fps neighborhood. That bullet is still going as far as I know. If I owned a 7-08 the only bullet I'd shoot out of it at deer/pronghorn/coyotes/osama would be the 120 NBT. Go forth with the 120 and pummel a speed goat. ~JT

I've been shooting antelope with various 7mm-08's for awhile now and had great results with several bullets.
I especially like the 139g Hornady and the 140g corelok. These days I use the 140g TSX as it is also used for elk. It's worked very well on antelope though dropping several right in their tracks.

Pick either the 120 Nosler BT, or, the 120 TSX and kill anything you might have a tag for!

I love the Nosler 120 BT out of the 7mm-08, but antelope are found in some pretty windy shooting conditions. If possible, try to do some practice in the area where you'll be hunting, and try some good 140-grainers, 154-gr SST, and the 160-gr Sierra Gameking in the same wind. You might decide to go with something heavier. That 160 is a proven target bullet at 600 yards.

My experience has shown me that target bullets @ 600 and real world antelope hunting is two different things.

Any and all of the bullets the gent mentioned will do him just fine.

For me if there is too much wind to take a shot with say a 120 then there is also too much wind to take a shot with the 160's.

Thats just me way however.

Dober

If you know there's too much wind, then you're right, you should be waiting, not shooting. The problem is when there is no wind near you, and lots of wind in that canyon you're shooting across.

All those 120-gr bullets out of .25-06s can't be wrong!

Shoot them out to 300 yds or so and see how the groups hold up. Might give you a little insight if you plan to shoot that far.

Once again Lee... you've proven you have no idea what in the hell you're talking about.

At 400 yards the difference between the 120 BT @3100 and the 160 SGK @2700 is... wait for it... less than 1.5".
And the 120 is 3.5" flatter over that same 400 yard span... enough to matter? Not really... but it's an extra 25-30 yards in PBR.

Keep trying Lee... one of these days your blind ass will find an acorn. ~JT

NBTs tend to do a number on them. Fairly rapid expansion. Saw two killed in one day last fall with them in .277". Worked great.

DDP, I see you are from WA. How much shooting at 300 yards have you done in a windy area like Wyoming or west Texas? I was championing the 120 BT years ago here, when most of its fans todays were telling me it was too fragile - they hadn't tried it.

I am just saying if you are used to 80 yard shots on calm days in the big woods, you need to select your bullets for the 300 yards on the plains AFTER you have shot there, not from your living room based on calculated ballistics tables.

Wow some people really know how to ruin an interesting topic!!!

If you reload, 160 grain Partitins are flat shooting enough, penetrate and expand well and if you run into something really big, you don't have to resight or rethink trajectory.

Wayne

Hey DDP-
It sounds like you better move to another state because the wind never blows and you can't see past 300 yards anyplace in the state of Washington!!!!!

The 120 is actually tougher than the 140, I saw two sectioned and did myself afterwards. The jacket on the 120 is heavier all the way. Prolly 20%. Easily seen. I can't vouch for them myself on game, yet but too many guys "I" trust say they flat work to dismiss them.
Dave

Lee's geography is worse than his knowlege of ballistics. If you can't shoot in the wind, or past 200 yards... you can't hunt anywhere in the state east of about Cle Elum. Furthermore all of eastern Washington could easily be mistaken for Wyoming... it's the same freaking terrain.

The 120 NBT is an awesome bullet, my rifle prefers the 140s... so that's what I shoot. If all I had from now untill the end of time was the 120 NBT and my .280AI... I'd be more than satisfied and never feel undergunned for anything short of big bears. Period. ~JT

"DWS" (darn well said) JT

Dober

I don't know why the suggestion that shooters actually TRY different bullets at long range and in the expected hunting conditions is so scary to some people. It doesn't matter if DDP is from eastern WA or Oregon or Wyoming, because the person asking for and receiving the advice is from Missouri.

Apparently it does matter where I'm from... you're the one that brought it up. Nobody is challenging the suggestion of trying different loads... what they're challenging is:
A) Your total lack of credibility.
B) Your logic behind shooting a 160 grain bullet at a 100 pound critter, and using 'wind drift' to back it up.

It's like putting 'the Fridge' in to score a touchdown from the 1 yard line. Was it effective? Yeah, most of the time. Was it neccessary? Hell no, you've got Walter Payton for Christ's sake!! Because you probably don't understand football any better than ballistics or geography... I'll explain the analogy.
160 Sierra = Unneccessary... 120 NBT = Sweetness.

While I'm at it here's another football reference for you... Lee24, you've been sacked on this board more times than Dave Kreig... you Seahawk fans should appreciate that.

Oh, and I bet he ain't hunting Antelope in Missouri... again with the poor geography! ~JT

DDP, why do those who use 7mm-08s and 7x57s in target matches from 300 to 600 yards shoot the 160-gr Sierra Gameking instead of the 120-gr BT or TSX?

They don't... they shoot Berger 168s, or Wildcat 175 ULR RBBTs, or 162 A-Max. The BC on those is in the .650 class. You can't overcome the advantages of 400 fps in 400 yards in this battle. Again... the difference is 1.5" AT 400 YARDS. I didn't make it up... just told you how it is. I've never heard of anyone shooting a GAME KING in a 300-600 yard match... but then again I've never heard half the crap you've spewed over the last couple of months. ~JT

They don't----you are wasting your time with him.

Not wasting my time... I love to make football analogies. I was wondering how I could dominate the local benchrest compititions... now I've got it! Shoot a 7x57 and a Game King, watch out baby... I'm gonna shoot some screamers now. Thanks Lee!!

And before the 162-gr A-Max, Berger and other 168-gr 7mm bullets came on the market, lots of state matches were run and records set with 160-gr Sierra Gameking bullets. Many shooters still use them because you have to really have a good rifle to shoot a heavier bullet better in any caliber, and heavier bullets have to be more mass concentric to shoot well at higher rates of twists necessary to stabilize them.

Besides, the GK is a lot less expensive than Bergers, and most shooters aren't good enough to take advantage of the difference in the smaller groups in a position match, much less in a hunting situation.

Personally, I would shoot the 120 BT or 154 SST out of my 7mm-08 because they shoot so well that I have no need to waste money experimenting with the TSX or any other bullets I haven't tried. The 160 GK shoots very well, and I recommend people who haven't tried it or the 154s do so. Whenever I do, the velocity worshippers or BC worshippers or SD worshippers invariably yowl about all bullets which don't generate the extreme numbers they worship.

Someone mentioned on this thread that the 120 BT is tougher than the 140 BT because the jacket is thicker. That's true and here's a picture of them to prove it:



I loaded the 120's in my son's 7mm-08 to use on whitetail, but haven't had a chance to go to the range with them yet.

Lee ---- I have never seen a Gameking being used at a match. Your Google skills are slipping. I will be at the Missouri State Championships IBS 1K in early September and will make sure and ask if anybody has ever used a Gameking to shoot a match with lol.

It is very evident that you know very little about this sport so just keep Googling.

Everyone on the board knows that Lee24 is from the plant Google!!

Whatever "deer bullet" your seven shoots best is your "speed goat bullet".

When MD did his Handloader article on the 7x57 he didn't include loading info on bullets under 140 grains - particularly given the discussions of the "120 Trinity" here at the campfire. I asked him if that was an accident. He said, no, he had never shot a 120 grain bullet out of a 7mm of any kind.

Even cited wind drift as a primary reason.

Tho Lee24 may not be the most popular of posters (heck I even gently rib him now and again) he is not on an island re the wind drift issue.

Any game bullet in the boiler room will take a speed goat. Even they cannot outrun a speeding bullet and a steaming locomotive will flatten them whether or not they are wearing a red cape and/or are costumed with big "S" on their chest.

Of course the 7mm 120 gr BT has a nominal BC of .417 while the 257 100 gr BT has a nominal BC of .393. So far as I know, no sane authority has ever dissed the 100gr 25 cal BT as an antelope bullet.

All goes back to "shoot what your gun likes" and worry about taking care of the meat.

GE

Popcorn time.

Has anybody done a "scientific" comparison of these two bullets? In the side-by-side test I did with them, (not "scientific"), they performed the same. Penetration was the same. Both had peeled back to the solid base by the end of the channel, so they were in two pieces but this happened at the very end of the channel.

A lot this armchair theorizing about MV, BC, and SD is based on the fantasy that the hunter may have to demostrate is marksmanship with a 300 to 400 yard shot on antelope, elk, sheep, goats or mule deer, or go home and face his trophy-obsessed friends as a failure.

The reality is that bowhunters stalk and kill all the above, and no one HAS to take a shot over 200 yards. Anyone with good stalking skills can get within 100 yards of anything, except for the 10% of time when wind or noisy ground is against you.

Y'all gotta quit questions Lee24's knowledge. Didn't y'all see on one of the other threads he was on the rifle team with Carlos Hathcock back in '68? He must know what he's talking about, right?

Carlos Hathcock was a US Marine, and went to Vietnam in 1966.
Fort Benning is a US ARMY base.
But while you are making stuff up, jds44, why not get it all wrong? Easy for some of you to do, though I don't understand the motivation for your showing your ass.

Jezzz I hope Lee24 goes to the Get Together in Raton and gives everyone a demonstration of his shooting abilities. Shooting in the wind at extreme range will separate the men from the wannabes.

You damn sure are trying to infer you were on the team with him...

Boss... you know he'll kick you a$$. He's shooting a 7x57 with 160 Game Kings, a combo that he's used to win at Wimbeldon as well as take hundreds of head of game on 3 continents (of which he has no pictures because he feels the magic box takes away his soul). Durring his years as and aerospace engineer/global business man/firearms designer/physicist/sniper... he's developed the ability to shoot accurately enough that 1.5" of wind at 400 yards means the difference between game on the ground and sipping on tag soup. I guess if we all learned to shoot the 'hollow point expanding full metal jacketed bullets' that he touts as the greatest of all time... we'd be on the same exalted level that he has managed to attain. Untill then, we'll just have to bow down to the greatest internet hunter/match shooter in the history of our sport. It saddens me that the likes of Roosevent, O'Connor, and Ruark couldn't have shared the field with a true legend... Lee24 ~JT

jds44, you just couldn't follow what I was saying about Hathcock buying a sniper rifle at the PX because you don't know enough about Vietnam, Hathcock, the US Marine Corps, and US Army. That's not my fault.

Just like arguing with me about a 160-gr 7mm bullet you haven't shot.

Errors stack up:
* Your rifle shoots 1 MOA
* You mis-estimate range by 20%
* You can't hold 2 MOA in field conditions
* Wind moves your bullet 0.5 MOA that you ignored

Next thing you know, your wonder bullet hits 12 inches back of where you called the shot, into the gut, or 12 inches in front to nick the brisket, or 8 inches low into the dirt, or over its back... and you wonder what the hell happened.

You have me rolling on that one!!!!! OUTSTANDING!!!

Dang your good...

Don't suppose you ever dug up any pic's of ANYTHING you've ever down yet, have you?

Hoss, are you going to be shooting any long-range matches with 120-gr 7mm bullets? Do you know anyone who is?

You going to be shooting any matches with GAME KINGS? Do you KNOW anyone who is? If so... I'd like to be there.

In fact, why don't we do this? I'll load up some 120s in my .280AI... at 3100... you load up some 160 game kings in you 7x57 and we'll go shoot them at 300 yards and compare not only group size... but hits on whatever size taget you choose. We can let the 'fire decide via pics in the post. Does that sound fair? I'm sure you're a man of great integrety... given your excellent resume and track record here... we can trust you to be honest about the whole thing. Shall we proceed... or are you going to admit the only rifle you own shoots a small flame out when you pull the trigger... so you can use it to light your CRACK PIPE!!! ~JT

That is a pretty silly question #1

All of the folks I know use the 168 or 175 SMK's at 1K or the Berger selections which I am not really familiar with because I don't shoot their products. In my Warp 7 Sporter the 150SMK is the choice for hunting. The IBS H G that is being built will be in Warp 7 and it will shoot the 175 SMK�s.

Cheesy - All of the bullets you mentioned are fine, especially when following your own advice of putting in "in the vitals." For the record I am not a long-range competition shooter, nor am I ballistician, I am simply a third-generation rancher in the heart of some of the best antelope country in America and I've seen more antelope taken than I could ever care to count. I have also seen many, many antelope that were not recovered. Antelope are fun to stalk. Choose a hunting area that is not table-top flat and enjoy the hunt. The closest I have gotten to a buck was 30 feet. I shot him with a FMJ .308 coyote load. The longest shot I've made was 600 yards with a heavy-barreled .25-06 single-shot, but those are real extremes. Your shot will likely be between 125 and 250 yards. Antelope are small, thin-hided animals but they can run for a long ways if you hit them in the paunch or too high in the lungs. The dead antelope that I find every year are usually wounded because people shot from too great a distance or they had a complete pass-through on one animal and hit another standing behind it. On my ranch I have shut-down the bow hunting for antelope because they are famous for jumping the string and I was seeing one antelope wounded for every one killed. Take your time with antelope. They are very habitual and can be patterned. Good luck and have fun.

Gaviidae,

Actually, I am going to do some more experimenting with some lighter weight bullets this fall, such as the 120 BT in the 7x57 and the 130 TSX in the .308.

The 130 Speer Hot-Cor will work very well too in the 7x57 and 7mm-08.

Actually about any 7mm bullet will work on pronghorn, even the 175. The heaviest I have used in the 7x57 is a 160 Sierra, which works quite well out to 400 yards, which is as far as I've ever tried to shoot a pronghorn. The 175 only drops a couple inches more at that range, when both are sighted at 200, and a 175 spitzer still retains enough velocity to expand.

JB

JB,

Don't be shy about feeding me any advance info re: your findings with the 120BT in the 7x57!

If the wind stays down I'll be trying some 120 TSX's out of mine later today. See how they compare to the 140's ...

GE

Actually all I have shot them in so far is the .280 AI, where they shoot pretty well at 3300 fps or so.

Have been handloading but not shooting for about 3 weeks now. I normally shoot at 2 different ranges: a 100-yard range on a friend's place, and the local rod & gun club range.

But the forest fire smoke has made even being outside hazardous to your lungs, so I decided not to shoot for a few days. In the meantime they closed the r&g range down due to fire danger, and tore up the highway to my friend's place, in preparation for widening. Then they temprarily "paved" it with gravel that appartently contains a lot of agate, as my buddy has lost 4 tires in one month going to and from work.

THIS SUCKS! But the fires will die, and the highway will be paved, all probably within the next 2 weeks. And then I will go and shoot 1000 holes in paper with various rifles.

JB

The jacket on the 120, as your pic proves, is certainly thicker. Proving tougher, however, requires that both jackets have the same metal alloy and temper - both likely but not something one can see. Proof comes only in the testing. Inspections only give often valid suggestions.

Anecdotal evidence presented does seem to validate the claim though. I like what your pic shows. I may have to give them a whirl since 140s are as low as I've gone with BTs - and they were the lightest BTs available in 7mm when I bought my last boxes anyway I think.

Mule Deer, why are you waiting for the wind to die down to try the 120-gr BT and TSX? Is it too stiff a breeze for the 140s, 154s, and 160s, too, or just the light stuff? Please elaborate.

FYI Hoss, I looked up some old match results in my files and found some 300 and 600 matches won in Pennsylvania with 7mm-08 and the 160-gr Sierra Gameking, back in the day before the 160~ match bullets.

I also found that Boots Obermeyer won the 1981 Wisconsin state match with a 7mm-08 firing the 160-gr Sierra Gameking for 788-34X, a record which stood until 1991. He also is listed winning some matches at 300 and 600 with a 7x57mm firing the same 160-gr Gamekings. I am sure there are lots more we'll never known about.

1.5" at 400 yards... DUMB ASS

That's more intelligent than your normal post, DDP.
You must have gotten a lot of rest over the weekend.
But I asked Mule Deer. He can post for himself.

Yeah... I was trying to get to your level. Of course I'm not a pseudo-aerospace engineer/firearms designer/international businessman/Army trained sniper/long range match competitor/world trotting big game hunter like you... I just go out and ACTUALLY SHOOT STUFF. ~JT

Or shoot at stuff.

Have you shot the 120-gr bullets in the wind alongside the 154-gr SST or 160-gr Gameking?
Or do you just hold the Cabela's catalog to your forehead like Carnac the Marksman to "know" how they behave?

Yep... I have shot them both, have you? I even shot the 120 and 140 NBTs along side the 160 Accubond (which trumps both the GK and SST in BC) I really noticed little difference in wind drift one to another. The 120s recoiled the least, the 160s recoiled a bit much for my everyday shooting... and the 140 was the most accurate and did everything I'll ever need a bullet to do for 95% of my hunting needs. This was on the same day... in a decent 10MPH or so wind, from the same bench in the same gun. Shot groups all the way out to 300, which is as far as you can shoot at this particular range. Did the 160s drift a little less? Yeah... maybe an inch. But not enough to make me miss anything... and they were the least accurate at 300 yards with groups going in the 4-5" range.

Now, any other brain busters? The only Cabela's catalog in my house is in the guest bathroom... for good reason. Now... you can go back to shooting your AirSoft pistol untill your Mommy takes it away for shooting your little sister... I'll keep slapping real critters up side the shoulder with a real rifle... shooting real 7mm bullets. Class dismissed. ~JT

Gee, you should take your 120-gr bullets to a rifle match and break some of those records set with the 160-gr Gameking fired from 7mm-08 and 7x57 rifles.

In the meantime, tell us why you are so obnoxious in you advocacy of the 120-gr bullets? All I did was suggest that the original poster try the same bullets you claim to have tried (just now, for the first time), and you went.... well, ballistic. Not accurate, just ballistic.

My range goes to 600 meters, but we require guests to have good manners.

I made you an offer... I'll shoot 120s, you shoot 160 Game Kings... we'll see which one is easier to hit with. You chose not to accept... and.... ignore. ~JT

Go ahead, enter a 300 match with good wind and send us the results.

If you have actually shot these bullets, why don't you explain WHY you favor the 120-gr for hunting antelope, instead of posting stupid insults?

I HAVE SHOT THE BULLETS... READ MY EARLIER POST.
They shoot flatter, there's almost no difference in wind drift, and they're better built for anchoring sub-100 pound critters than 160 grain bullets. That was already stated... but you obviously read as well as you study ballistics. If you're having some troubles with your story-problems my wife is a math tutor... she could probably help you out, I'd hate to see you have to repeat the 5th grade.

Looks like about a six to one preference in favor of the 120BT over the other options, Cheesy. I was all set to go that route myself this season but I failed to draw a tag that I had an 80% chance of getting. Somebody has to be in the other 20% I guess!

We mechanical engineers use more math than most math majors ever saw, but you do have a new twist on your grade school insults.

Why are you unable address the original question with some facts, and without insults? If you feel ashamed of your vocation, don't try to insult mine. It only makes you look smaller each time.

I won't hold my breath for your match scores, or any pictures of comparative targets, or dead stuff at the hands of your 7mm One Hole Wonder.

Significant humor there...............

Wow................... Really???????????????????? You need a better rifle to shoot heavier bullets well? Seriously???????????????

Besides, isn't the point of extremely thin jacketed, lead filled match bullets to make them more mass concentric? I'm quite certain that all are manufactured with that goal in mind.



Yeah, because you see competitors skimping on the cheapest part of their sport all the time............ give or take.

You also generally see competitors going with an inferior product because they really don't need the edge that the best gives them....... Lee, are you for real, or have you just never met a single competitor?

You are too much.

Oh, the irony...................

Hello, Kettle, ......... this is Lee, ......... you're black............

I did address the facts... 1.5" at 400 yards. This is the FACT... and it is undisputed. I shot them... side by side... the 140 won out on accuracy alone (although I would shoot the 120 before the 160), wind drift (in a 10 mPH wind) was a non-factor. I think you're the one that needs to put in a call to Leg Warehouse... because you've got nothing to stand on! ~JT

The reason you need a really good bore and barrel to shoot a heavier bullet is that you have to spin a heavier bullet at a faster rate, unless you really reduce its muzzle exit speed, as many heavy (168 to 185 grain) target loads are for the M-14 (at 2,500 fps or less).

Someone who is seriously shooting long range is going to build a rifle with a bore and lands diameter specified, and a rate of twist, tailored to their intended bullet. A heavy bullet might need a 1:9.5 or 1:9 rate of twist.

The faster the bullet rotates (say 225,000 rpm for a hot 180-gr bullet vs 150,000 rpm for a semi-auto 168-gr load), every imperfection of balance increases quickly, as the rotational energy increases with the square of the speed of rotation. Likewise, any imperfections in the throat and bore are magnified with bullet speed and rotational speed.

The FACT is that match records were set with the 7mm-08 and 7x57 shooting the 160-gr Sierra Gameking before the newer generation of 7mm target bullets arrived after Remington upgraded the 7mm-08 from a wildcat to a commercial cartridge in the early 1980s. Those who denied that fact can accept the facts or not.

If the 120-gr bullets were superior for long range shooting, the target shooters would use them over the harder-kicking heavy bullets.

The other fact is that most hunters don't have the equipment nor the skills to tell much difference, so there really is no difference for them. The better the marksman and his rifle, the more important the right bullet and load become to him. On the other hand, he can outshoot the duffer with any of the mix.

Cheesy-
The advice you have received regarding the use of the Sierra 160 Gameking because of its ability to buck wind totally overlooks the fact that you cannot safely push it fast enough in a 7-08 for it to have enough velocity to reliably expand at 400 yards. (The range at which it begins to have a wind advantage). This goes for both the spitzer and hollow point Gameking, and is based on Sierra's minimum impact velocity data of 2000FPS and 2300FPS respectively.

On the other hand, the 120BT would still have enough velocity for reliable expansion beyond 500 yards.

Maybe you want to think twice before using a "proven target bullet at 600 yards" that would likely pencil through an antelope at 400......

Length dictates neccessary twist rate... not weight of projectile. I thought you were an engineer? Guess we've proved that's bull schitt too now huh?

We're not saying they're superior for 'long range match shooting'... but they are superior for work on 100 pound critters out to sane ranges in real world hunting situations (something you know absolutely nothing about).~JT

Castandblast,

Actually, the 160 GameKing (softpoint) will expand nicely on pronghorn at 400 yards when started at 7mm-08 muzzle velocities. I know this because I have seen it.

JB

Overall project length does not "dictate" the rate of spin necessary to stabilize it - it is a complex formula of forward velocity, bullet weight, bullet profile, bearing surface, and variations in density due to various alloys of lead and copper in the bullet geometry, all of which contribute to the rotational energy and inertia at various glide path velocities. Overall length is just a simple number, like gross weight, which can be used by the least sophisticated attempts to correlate some bullet characteristic to rate of spin.

As stated by Mule Deer, the 160-gr Gameking will expand on light game at 400 yards, when fired from a 7x57 or 7mm-08, or at 600 when fired from a 7mm Rem Mag.

Beyond 300 yards, you aren't really hunting; you are just shooting. There is little challenge in that for a good marksman, it's not sporting, and not satisfying to a good hunter.

So, now it,s a debate about ethics? Can't win the bullet argument... so you'll challenge the hunter now? Why don't you go ahead and post a picture of something you "hunted" and killed inside of 300 yards... for every pic you post, I'll post one. Deal?

You forgot to include air density. Next time try and at least make it to the SECOND Google result before copying and pasting.

I didn't forget anything. I was just making a point about a very simplistic notion, mentioning what I know off the top of my head. You can Google all day and not find what I wrote, because those are my thoughts.

There are other factors, too, which I left out.
Did you forget them, or are you unaware of them?
Or did your Google search only return "air density"?

Some of the other posters who insisted that the 160-gr Gameking had never been used in competition and would not kill antelope have quietly vanished in the face of the facts. Take a hint.

JB-

What? Field experience proving the engineers and their lab tests wrong about their own bullets yet again?!!! I sure hate to see that!!

That is interesting. Perhaps Sierra is being very conservative with their figures? I would like to hear more about what you observed. Did the bullet hit bone? Would you expect to see adequate expansion if the bullet slipped between the slats and hit nothing more than skinny antelope lung tissue?

If we are going to choose an antelope bullet for a 400 yard shot, wouldn't the 140 AB load that Cheesy already has be superior to the 160 Gameking? (A slightly better BC, started faster, with a lower minimum impact velocity for expansion).

Hey Lee... post a picture of something you've killed with a Game King... any Game King... any caliber.

I'm not making any argument about twist rates, I wasn't the one who had to Google the subject then present the results as my own thoughts. I was just pointing out that each and every factor you presented could be found in the very first Google result.

Curious how the overwhelming majority of your "expert opinions" can be found within the first few Google results, many times word for word. It is probably just a coincidence, though.

Hey, Lee, how many antelope have YOU shot with the 160gr GameKing from a 7-08 at over 400 yards? Probably the same number as the total sum of all game you have ever taken, right between none and zero.

As soft as Sierras generally are, I can't imagine any velocity short of that generated by a sling shot, at which they would not expand.

Alrighty then.

Yeah, yeah, that's it! (In my best SNL John Lovitz voice).

Looks like the only thing that Lee hasn't designed or engineered is the internet. Had he been a little quicker, he might have beaten Al gore to the punch.

Thanks for the info CAS. Being started off as a teenager with Partitions for game and Sierras for paper has me kind of biased, I guess. I have seen that softness lead to problems on elk, which did nothing to help overcome the bias.

My 7-08 has a 20" barrel and velocity with bullets heavier than 140's really drops off. If I can start a slicker bullet faster that's the route I'd choose. I really expected to be hunting antelope this week, but have to settle for cyber-debate instead. Bummer! Next year I'll have enough points for a 100% chance to draw a tag.

C&B,

Not only have I seen it done on antelope, but on African springbok, which are about 3/4 the size of pronghorn. This was with a 21" barreled 7x57, the 160 GK loaded to about 2680 fps. And not just once, but several times.

According to my calculations, retained velocity is about 2000 at 400 with this load.

JB

Gents, I don't have a dog in this battle as I've never shot an antelope. HOWEVER, Lee24, I have to disagree with you. From my standpoint, if I were to take a hunt and bust my ass for 5 to 7 days trying to bust my first pronghorn buck, and it turns out on the last day I can take a 312 yard shot at a nice buck, and I make a good shot, you're going to tell me there's no challenge in making a good shot, and no satisfaction in accomplishing that? Not in my book...... YMMV.......

CAS, shooting beyond yards is not a challenge for me, and it is not hunting. I hunt for the challenge. If others ask for some bullets to use in their 7mm-08, I recommend the 120-gr BT, 154-gr SST, and 160-gr Gameking, all of which I have used.

If you have any genuine experience with any of those bullets being superior to the other for antelope at 300 yards, post it. If you have no experience, post insults.

As for your disliking my vocation, I ask why are you ashamed of your own?

Lee-this is just a thought, but your statement about shooting past 300 yds is not hunting it is just shooting. Now if you had said for you and this is your way. Then I'd not give it a second thought.

However, the way I took you post was that it should be viewed that way for the rest of the world.

A blanket about something like this that covers all via your thought process just isn't right.

Then again this is just my opinion.

Thx

Dober

CAS... don't bother. I posted actuall info on all of the bullets Lee listed (except the 154 SST), which I actually used on game... he chose to ignore that info and istead turn this into a debate on hunting ethics and match appropriate accuracy. The guy's a freaking troll... I don't know why I can't leave him on ignore. Probably the same reason I watch the Sonics play basketball... everyone loves a train wreck. ~JT

He did his typical Lee24 maneuver, when he loses a debate, he changes it.

Mark, I don't mean to insult anyone who feels they have to shoot at 400 yards, but I have never seen the need for it, and find it to be easier than using my hunting skills to get closer, so I don't get anything out of if. I have never see many situations where I couldn't get a lot closer to game. Sometimes I might stalk from 500 yards to 30 yards and get busted by another animal, but that is a lot more fun than just popping a bedded 10-pointer from 1/4 mile away. For that kind of hunting, I prefer to go after crows and pigeons at 100+ yards with .22 LR.

Mule Deer and others agreed with me, so I don't think I "lost the debate" about the 160-gr Sierra being a good bullet to try for deer or antelope from any 7mm rifle. There was no debate. Just some insults from a few soreheads.

I posted facts about the use of the 160-gr Sierra Gameking in 300 and 600 yard matches, some people claimed it was a lie, they were caught bluffing by the facts, and they vanished, as always.

Some trolls tried to change the subject to robotics and other engineering topics they cannot discuss. How dumb is that?

how's this month's 7mm-08 thread coming along ?? getting good yet ??

Still waiting on that picture Lee...

"forward velocity"? bullets have BACKWARD velocity??? velocity is a vector which includes speed AND direction.

Various alloys..in the bullet geometry. how do various alloys affect geometry??

"all of which contribute to the rotational energy and inertia at various glide path velocities."

rotational energy??? glide path velocity???

your thesaurus must be working overtime.

Lee: I generally feel sorry for you in that everyone seems to pick on you. But you seem to be asking for it in this post.

That's right, there is really no such thing as "muzzle velocity" because the bullet at the muzzle only has forward speed. After it leaves the muzzle, it has a velocity, composed of its decreasing forward speed and its increasing falling speed towards the earth under the force of gravitational attraction.

Even if the bullet were not moving forward or falling toward the earth, it would have a lot of stored energy just from rotating at 150,000+ RPM.

The alloys of the core and jacket (if the bullet has one) affect the center of mass of the bullet, because lead is more dense than copper, and some bullets have 2 or three lead alloys in different sections of the bullet. Two bullets may have nearly identical external solid geometry, but one may have lead all the way to the nose and weigh 180 grains, while the other may have the lead portion with a flat point inside a hollow copper nose, and only weigh 150 grains.

A bullet with a thick copper jacket will have a lower mass moment of inertia than one of the same weight with a thin jacket, because it has less mass in the areas of greatest speed (farthest from the axis of rotation).

Not so. Just because some, or even all, components of a vector quantity are zero doesn't turn it into a scalar.

Come on now, Google didn't mention THAT.

Well, excuse me, but I think that the term "muzzle velocity" would refer to the VELOCITY at the point of the muzzle. So muzzle velocity would be a valid term, muzzle being an adjective defining the exact point of the velocity in question, in the same way as "100yd velocity" might refer to the remaining velocity at 100 yds from the muzzle.

However, YOUR term "forward velocity" would have no validity except to obfuscate, since "forward" would indicate a DIRECTION and not a POINT.

And I, myself, have always striven to eschew obfuscation.

Give it up, Lee.

The bullet has both a vector and scalar magnitude, which are identical at the muzzle.

At the instant the bullet leaves the muzzle, its speed value is the same as its velocity value. It doesn't matter which direction the moving object is traveling. You can compute the energy from its speed (scalar value), regardless of the orientation of the muzzle. The direction of travel (vector value) down the bore is of no consequence in calculating the rotational characteristics at that instant, energy, etc.

All the above presumes referencing the bullet to a world coordinate system. You could reference it to the rifle's coordinate system at that same instant, where it leaves one coordinate system for another one.

In robotic control, we often find it convenient to dynamically change the coordinate system on-the-fly for better control, by temporarily simplifying the matrix algebra for a span of time.

The old saw comes to mind: "if you can't dazzle 'em with your brilliance, baffle 'em with your BS". Methinks, you've failed on both points.

Esoteric BS notwithstanding, what, exactly, would be your point, Lee?

Strictly speaking there isn't a vector magnitude, vectors being vectors and magnitudes being scalars, but there is a magnitude of a vector. The magnitude of a vector is a scalar. This is true even when we aren't talking about velocities or similar.

Speed and velocity are not equal, speed being a scalar and velocity being a vector. Vectors are not equal to scalars. The speed of a projectile is defined to be the magnitude of its velocity vector.

The direction, say d, of a nonzero vector v, is defined by d= v/||v|| where the double vertical bars are used to denote magnitude. It follows that a direction vector d always has scalar magnitude = 1.

The scalar zero of arithmetic, 0, and the vector zero, 0, are not the same thing even though ||0|| = 0.

Also note that nowhere have I introduced any particular coordinate system.

Still no picture?

Oh, he is painting quite a vivid picture of himself. It isn't flattering.

When the little people started looking really dumb, by other posters telling they were wrong about the 160-gr Sierra and antelope hunting, they ran to get another expert to change the subject, this time to the semantics of velocity vs speed.

I know most of you don't know how to calculate muzzle energy, much less muzzle velocity, but let me ask you a question.
When you refer to a set of values such as "muzzle energy" and "muzzle velocity", do you think there is something more than the scalar value of the moving bullet being used?

Calculate for us ME using muzzle exit speed and muzzle exit velocity, and show us the difference. Mathman already dodged this issue above, but he gets a second try.

Meanwhile, listen to what Mule Deer and others with experience are trying to tell you about antelope hunting (or shooting).

Perhaps you and possibly others consider my remarks pedantic, but nobody ran to get me. I don't have long range target shooting or antelope hunting experience, so I didn't comment there. I'm sorry I lead things away from that topic.






Ordinarily I keep things on an even keel but since you've addressed me personally I'll give you my unedited response: I didn't dodge $hit. I simply pointed out that even when all but one component of a velocity vector are zero the vector doesn't turn into a scalar. I followed up by giving a few detais about vectors vs. scalars as mathematical objects. If you consider the differences uninteresting subtleties, so be it.


Perhaps it was weakness on my part that let your comment (about mechanical engineers using more math than most math majors have ever seen) rub me the wrong way, but there it is.

mathman

You know I stumbled onto this thread while passing through.

"Self", I told myself, "surely there cannot be 12 pages of argument over the proper bullet with which to shoot an animal the size of a German Shepherd!"

Sadly I was wrong. Gawd, how long till October gets here?

Will

How is it better... they never said it was better, they said it would work. I conceded that it would work, but provided actual experience with other projectiles including the 120 NBT in question. You chose to ignore the facts, reject reality, and substitute your own skewed interpretation. Having grown up in pronghorn country and shot quite a few (two with 120 grain bullets out of a 7Mag... although they were the V-Max), I have ACTUAL EXPERIENCE... you have theoretical bull schitt (unless you'd like to give us a little history on your pronghorn hunting escapades). Again, 1.5" at 400 yards... energy means nothing it's a 100 POUND CRITTER. If the 1.5" is significant... then the 4" advantage for the 120 in trajectory at 400 is mammoth. And last, but not least... is your hypocritical assessment of why you'd need the extra BC. First you tout the higher BC as an advantage 'on the windy plains'... then you say you'd never shoot over 300 yards... where the difference between the 160GK and 120NBT is only... .9". Yep, that's right... LESS THAN AN INCH. ~JT

That is too effin funny!

GE

I've seen German Shepherds that are bigger than most Pronghorn... certainly tougher.

First off, it's not semantics, it's about what is right and what is wrong. you were wrong.

As for changing the subject, well you firmly have the patent on THAT maneuver. Shall we recap, just from this thread?

The question was asked about HUNTING bullets for antelope, you post:



of course it is pointed out that in the question of a 400 yard game bullet, there is a whopping 1.5" difference in wind drift between a 120 and 160 in question. To that you reply:



Then, rather than discuss the merits of bullets that you actually have used, you change the subject again to the location of the hunt:



Of course, when challenged, you backtrack in grand fashion:



As an aside, just because I think it's funny, how about this gem of a quote in relation to your expert status on the suitability of the 120gr TSX (that you haev admittedly never tried) on game?



Again, you got bitch slapped on the loaction argument, so once again you change the argument back to competitive shooting with your next post:



Yeah, those 7x57's shooting 160gr GameKings are DOMINATING the Benchrest scene. Just look at any equipment list, and they will be at the top........ give or take........

In typical fashion, once again you were proven wrong, so once again you change the argument. This time you change it to competitions that happened decades ago:



You then spew this gem, again after you change the subject once again to rifles:



That is just patently absurd, and when called on it, you backtrack yet again and try and change the subject:



Yeah, that makes perfect sense, better = proper twist? WHAT?!?!?!?

Yep, that's right, another idiotic statement. Time to change the subject again:



Wait, wait, wait....... Lee is getting hammered again, so let's move the argument in yet another direction:



Damn, bowhunting will answer all questions about a good bullet for antelope. Yeah, that's it!


Heck, I only got part of the way through page 2 of 5, and you had already changed the subject 11 TIMES! That just makes this quote sound even funnier:




Hello, Kettle ............ This is Lee ........... You're black!

Ouch!

wow. Can't say that I have seen a biatch slap like that in a while.

BTW - Did Lee ever post a pic of an animal that he has shot?

Thanks JB. I came up with the same number at 400 myself, which made me curious about the minimum expansion question for the techs at Sierra.

It's refreshing to have a source of information on this topic who can point to actual field experience to back up what he says, rather than changing the subject and beating others over the head with their "vast knowlege"!

Since antelope hunting in Oregon is a once-a-decade opportunity at best, testing a bunch of bullets on them is not going to happen here. You have said that about any 7mm bullet will work, but which bullet would you pick for the job in a 7-08?

Well it looks like using a 7-08 is going to be too complicated. Can anybody recommend a bullet for my .270? Maybe that will be a little easier.

Laffin'!

Since they are so easy to walk up on in ankle-high bunch-grass, I'm going after them with a bow.......

I'm sure there's been many a long range world record set with the 150 Sierra Game King... I think David Tubbs may shoot this combo in a modified AR.

I'd just throw stones. No doubt you will get tons of advice on how best to do that.

Just make sure you have a high quality 'arm' with which to throw the heavier stones. Also, throwing stones beyond 10 yards is unethical. We should consider the variences in density due to agregate amounts of sedementary rock, profile, and 'forward velocity'. I don't know that we're equiped to duscuss this at lenght... Lee, help us out!! ~JT

Tall grass does make stalking easier, but even short grass is not impossible... bowhunters:
http://www.pronghornantelopehuntingoutfitters.com/

Hey, you folks (you, too, "mathman")forgot to answer the simple question:
When you plug a "velocity" into your ballistic calculator, what number are you using? Is it truly a velocity, or the scalar value of horizontal speed?

"Pronghorn bowhunting from stands or blinds is a highly successful."

"At our bow only camps we set our stands and blinds at windmills, ponds, fence crossings. I put out great numbers of blinds and Cabela's ladder stands that we use along the wooded edge of the alfalfa fields. I set my stands and blinds at 20 yards to give my traditional bowhunters and compound shooters the best opportunity to harvest these bucks."

"Then the field edges become more active and fence crossings where we have our blinds and stands set."

Great link. Not one word about stalking, but then obviously you didn't read it before posting it.......

Imagine that, Lee made it all the way to the THIRD Google result before posting the link.....................

Never mind that it doesn't involve stalking of antelope, as he pretended to suggest.



Again, Lee took the art of a dodging the argument and changing the subject to a new level. you are truly a master, Lee.

The ole' one-two... nicely done boys. Should take him a minute or two to get up off the canvas after that pummeling. You have to admire his tenacity though... bless his heart. ~JT

One more time: I never said anything about how to calculate kinetic energy, nor did I say anything about the label of a blank in the input section of a software package. All I said was even though a vector may have only one nonzero component, and in that instance the number sitting in that nonzero component has the same absolute value as the scalar magnitude of the vector, the vector doesn't fail to exist as such or suddenly turn into a scalar either. If that distinction is too subtle for you, oh well. If you do get it but simply consider it unimportant, I'll chalk it up to a matter of taste and leave it at that.

What if C-A-T... spelled Dog?

Lee-
I don't know the answer to that. I'll agree to go look it up if you'll agree to study up on why you are obsessed with being the smartest person in the room and beating others over the head with book knowlege while lacking any form of wisdom.

Here's a good place to start:

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html

"Common conspicuous grandiose behaviors include expecting special treatment or admiration on the basis of claiming (a) to know important, powerful or famous people or (b) to be extraordinarily intelligent or talented. "

"An exaggerated sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)"

Understanding your personality disorder is the first step toward getting well.

My seven year old daughter and her friends also play the same game, "I know something you don't know!". I am trying to help her learn to use her knowlege wisely so that she doesn't become a societal reject.

I hope you non-stalkers who laughed about bowhunting and stalking, clicked on those and other links to see that antelope are, indeed killed at close range by bowhunters.

Let me help you.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=stalking+antelope

The best articles are not online, but in Bowhunter and Traditional Archery magazines.

But then, the fact that long-range match records were set with the 160-gr Gameking out of a 7mm-08 didn't stop some of you from remaining in denial.

I'm still waiting for "mathman" of the peanut gallery to tell me how he inputs a multi-dimensional value like "muzzle velocity" into one dimension of a ballistics calculation program.

Is anyone shocked? Lee once again quoted a Google result without having any knowledge of the subject and got caught. In typical fashion he backtracked and changed the subject yet again.

Wait, which is it, Lee? Are the internet sources you tout the ultimate authority on all subjects, or are magazines you read the ultimate authority on all subjects. I'm confused.



And there we have it! Lee's entire "knowledge" of ballistics is proven to be derived from his use of a computer ballistic calculator. If the computer ballistic calculator doesn't say it, it isn't so. If the input fields on the computer ballistic calculator don't allow it, it can't be.

Brilliant, once again, Lee. Keep going, please. You are better than watching TV.

I wrote my own ballistics calculator, and have used JBM and others, too.
None of them take anything but the bullet muzzle speed (scalar) value for an input value.

If you don't know how to stalk in open ground, you should learn how to run some calculations on your fantasy loads, then verify and practice a lot for those long shots.

Let me guess, you wrote the program on a computer that you invented and built from scratch in your garage?

How about posting the source code to the bllistics calculator you wrote so we can check it out? If the source code ain't handy, how about the .exe for the calculator itself? If it's good, we all might want to use it.

Well? Do we have a deal?

jds44 -
Since my ballistics calculator gives answers very close to those of JBM, Remington and Sierra, as well as to the actual drops and velocities I have input, I know it's right. I wrote it to add some features they don't have, including artillery shots with high angles of sight elevation.

In what computer languages are you capable of grading someone's code? If you could, why don't you write your own program?

Lee24 hard at work...

I remember the last time Lee24 put his Ballistic Calculator to work and astonished the world with this revelation:



How much bad water would you draw from a well before the source itself earns the same adjective?

Translation - you don't have the code or the calculator itself because you never wrote one.

You avoided answering my question:
What computer languages do you know well enough to understand someone else's code, even code as well-organized and commented as mine?

Have you ever written a commerical computer program? A scientific or engineering program?

Or are you just bluffing to be obnoxious?

First no pictures of anything you've ever done and now you can't produce the calc you supposedly wrote. I'm starting to see a pattern here. Who's bluffing and avoiding the questions???

To answer your question - I was a programmer at one time and have written software. Now put up or crawl back in your hole.

... but you don't remember the computer language you used, and don't feel comfortable discussing the issue you raised. That answers my question.

C and Clipper and I can read plenty more. Keeping talking in circles, we all know you're full of [bleep].

No, I am a software engineer, among other things, and you are afraid to discuss the subject you brought up. Think ahead, next time and don't be so rude. Just like on the playground, you might get your face rubbed in the dirt.

You are the only one here afraid to discuss the subject at hand. You said you had code, I asked to see it. You can't produce it because it never existed (yes, I am calling you a liar in public). Now you're trying to change the subject (again).

Go ahead, rub my face in the dirt genius - prove I can't read and interpret your code by posting it. You can't produce any evidence to back up your claims, can you? Same song, different day.

Why should I show anyone my proprietary software, especially people who have no experience with the languages or the technical algorithms? Take you punky bluffing somewhere else and see if you can hijack the thread away from the ballistics and hunting you also cannot discuss.

You prove us all correct once again...

Dude, have you ever done anything you can prove?

He's got proving he's an a$$ who's never really done anything outside surfing the net for info down to a science...

If you can't comprehend something, no one can "prove" it to you.

I believe even us idiots that aren't worthy of your presence can comprehend pictures of dead critters. You can't produce any of those. Most of us can figure out how to put numbers into a ballistic calc program to get meaniful output. You can't produce the finished product of a ballistics program you say you wrote. Some of us work in the IT field and can probably comprehend anything you say you've written. You can't produce that either.

See a pattern here? You can BS all you want, but you can't put up a shred of proof.

If you can't operate a camera, you probably can't write a computer program.

145gr. Speer

WN

+100

Why is it Lee feels the need to talk down to everyone here?

I don't talk down to everybody, but I don't humor the few really ignorant posters when they are rude and obnoxious.

JDS, you just have your ass on your shoulders and want to yap at my heels.
You haven't posted any pictures of any antelope you took with your favorite 7mm-08 load, if you even have such a load.

First the claims went up from the 120-gr TSX crowd that all other bullets sucked, and anyone who recommended them was an idiot. The 160-gr Sierra was of no value in the wind, lacked the energy to open at long range, yadda yadda, blah, blah.

So I posted some real facts of the 160-gr Gameking setting 300 and 600 yard match records out of the 7mm-08. Silence.

Then John Barsness said he had used the 160-gr Sierra at long range on antelope and it worked fine. Silence.

Now, some Clipper (obsolete, also-ran database scripting language) programmer wants to see my code, in a language he admits to not understanding, so he can grade me. How stupid is that?

If you want to post about your fantasies of how you are somehow superior to me in some area, instead of about the thread topics, knock yourself out.

He suffers from a personality disorder.

"B. Cerebral narcissism may be expressed as a need to be right or a belief that we have
superior insight over others.
1. Cerebral narcissism derives its narcissistic supply from intelligence or academic
achievements.
2. Cerebral narcissists are convinced their education is superior to others� and
that the ideas of others are only second best to their own.
3. Cerebral narcissism can easily develop in someone who is truly intellectually
brilliant.
4. The cerebral narcissist is convinced that he or she is unique and should associate
only with other special or high-status individuals."

http://www.reclamationrc.org/acrobat/Twisted%20Thinking%20Class/Lesson%202%20-%20Narcissism.pdf

He will not be helped, because he will deem his intelligence and credentials to be superior to any Mental Health Doctor who tries to treat him....

Question still stands:

Dude, have you ever done anything you can prove?

Diagnose yourself. Why do you feel compelled to post insults at people with experience in a thread where you admit to having none?

Why do you call someone a liar, then run hide when they post links to those with copious experience that proves you didn't know what you were talking about?

Why do you tell other posters they know nothing, then when Barsness or someone you like posts the exact same thing, you thank them profusely?

Guys give credit, I have a picture of Lee24 ready to set out on an antelope hunt... ......... BTW I'm just an idiot also, but an idiot who's BTDT 7mm-08 140 BTip Savage Striker Pistol....

VAnimrod -
Why don't you respond to the thread topic with YOUR experience hunting deer or antelope, and with the 7mm-08 in particular?

Why don't you... PONY UP and post a picture of you with a dead critter?

No, posting insults is your game:


















You are clearly here for the sole purpose of feeding your disease at the expense of the campfire and its members. You are exploiting the campfire and its people, likely because you've exhausted all real-world sources to feed your narcisism. You made it clear that you are the center of your universe when you tried to run the gunwriters out of here a year ago:

"Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends."

"Feels grandiose and self-important (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)"

"Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist)"

"Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions)"

"Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply)"
http://healthyplace.com/communities/personality_disorders/narcissism/narcissism_defined.html

Knowing about Narcisistic Personality Disorder makes it easy to understand your behavior, and also makes it absolutely necessary to put you on "ignore" to keep from feeding your disease. Anyone interacting with you here is giving you the "fix" your ego needs.

See ya.....

7mm-08 Encore, 120 Ballistic Tip


Most of us have been there, done that. Prove to us that you have.

If you can't handle being wrong, don't make assertions you cannot back up.

A lot of you just want to brag and post pictures. That's fine.
You need to realize that a deer shot with one bullet at 75 yards may have no bearing on the suitability of a different bullet on anteleope at 350 yards. If you are obnoxious, someone may tell you that your experience is irrelevant to the topic. Don't get mad - take heed, and post in the appropriate thread.

The only "sickness" is the notion that I, and some others, "start it" by posting factual information or our opinions based on personal experience. This sick notion is the emotional problem of those encountering opinions and facts at odds with their opinions.

I only intended to make one post here, a suggestion. It received an ignorant response, so I elaborated with facts about one particular bullet. ... More ignorant claims, and more links debunking those baseless comments = angrier trolls.

Just because I don't walk away every time the trolls stink up a thread does not make me a bad guy, just someone that cyber bullies don't like. If you crapped on the floor in a public restaurant, I someone might make you eat it. Same here.

There's the whole problem in a nut shell - you have proven to us on multiple occasions that you have ZERO personal experience on which to base your opinions. You either post something you've read that someone else did, quote stuff you found with Google, or just flat out make [bleep] up. Show us something you've actually done.

Lee,
Only 1 Troll on this thread... YOU. I posted actual experience with the bullets in question, on the game in question. You turned it into a debate about the merits of the 160 Game King out of a 7x57 for match shooting... then about math/physics... then about programing language. Why is it everytime you're challenged you seem to become an expert at something new? I also addressed the direct questions you asked... still you chose to ignore reality and inject your complete lack of hunting knowledge into this thread. JB is respected here... and everywhere in the shooting community, that is true. He didn't however endorse your 160 GK vs. any other bullet... he pointed out they'd work... and expand even on a critter that's not much bigger than a coyote. No one doubted whether or not they'd work... just doubted if they were necessary. You still haven't pointed out why that extra 1.5" in wind drift would make any difference in a real hunting situation... why not?

The reason you don't 'walk away everytime the trolls stink up a thread'... is because you like your own brew. You smelt it... you dealt it! ~JT

Id didn't say the 154-gr or 160-gr was necessary, just that you should try them if you haven't, in the wind, at 300 to 400 yards, alongside your normal 140-gr and zippy 120-grainers.

And I was not wrong about anything I said:
- The 160-gr Gameking is a superior longrange bullet for the 7mm-08

- The 160-gr Gameking has set target matches at 300 and 600 yards, because it can be made to shoot small groups and predictably in the wind.

- John Barsness said he has seen it work well on antelope.

- mathman and everyone else uses only the one dimension - bullet muzzle exit speed - to compute energy, trajectory and wind drift. All the other mumbo jumbo about scalars and vectors was just a failed attempt at appearing clever.

- I have written more than one ballistics program, and some do use velocity as part of a vector input parameter, when the trajectory is for artillery at really long range, or when the firing platform is in motion relative to the Earth and target.

Actually in that 7mm weight range, the 160gr GameKing is a rather wretched choice given it's extraordinarily low BC of only .460 to .470. Compare that to The Hornady 162 A-Max at .625, the Hornady 154gr IB at .525, the Berger 168gr at .645 the Nosler 160gr AB at .531 or the Nosler 150gr BT at .493 and it is easy to see that there are a BUNCH of better choices if one wants to go heavy.

Heck, even look at the 120gr BT with it's BC of .417 and the ability to be driven between 600 and 700 fps faster, and it is quite apparent that speaking of ballistics only, the 160gr GK is quite easy to improve upon.

Of course, if you had actually shot any of those bullets you might know that.

jds,

You really screwed up by letting him know which code you were familiar with before he answered. No matter what one you said, he would have replied with "No, that's not it".

It is akin to playing pick a number with a 6 year old.

I haven't posted on this thread yet but have been following along, and I'm not sure what you all have against Lee24, but I have to say I agree with most all of his posts. But then I am a guy who does like heavy-for-caliber bullets. I like 150's and 160's in my 270, and 180's in my 30-06. I haven't tried them yet, but I've always thought a 200 grain Accubond would be an awesome long range bullet out of the 30-06. I would also think that a 160 grain Accubond would do wonders out of a 7/08 (or, the 160 Sierra Gameking.) Sure the heavier bullets start out a little slower at the muzzle, but muzzle velocity isn't what counts when you're taking 400 yard shots.

Yeah I knew that his answer would be something other than what I said. I was hoping he'd come out and name something though after I tossed those 2 out there, cause those ain't the only 2 languages I'm familiar with.

It is your OPINION that the 160-gr Gameking "is a wretched choice" for target shooting.

It is the FACT that expert shooters chose it and used it to set match records back in the day before there were better match bullets for the 7mm-08. It beat the .308 with 168 SMK, 173, 175, 180, etc.

JDS44, everyone knows you would like to goad me into something that would get me tossed out of your little sand box. Then you could blow smoke each others' skirts.

A 190-gr .308 polymer-tipped bullet would be of interest to me for hunting. You need something with the throat and rifling to handle it. It should outshoot a 175-gr bullet traveling about 200 fps faster.

Lee, it is a FACT that the 160gr GameKing can't compete with scores of bullets of similar weight when it comes to BC. Since your whole argument was that the GameKing was a superb long range bullet because of it's 1.5" less drift (due to it's higher BC), then you are being intellectually dishonest to now say that other bullets that enjoy an even HIGHER BC are not superior to the GameKing.



And you can't see the irony in your post? You flat out admit that there are better long range bullets available today.

What was best 30 years ago, isn't necessarily what is best today. Again, if you were to actually shoot once in a while, you would know that.

DAMNIT! How did I miss that the first time. Lee has once again changed the discussion from hunting back to target shooting.

Please try and keep on track, Lee. It is difficult to follow with you bobbing and weaving like a damn jackrabbit.

- dimensions. a. measurement in length, width, and thickness

bullet muzzle exit speed is neither a length, a width, or a thickness.

If you are going to pretend to be an expert engineer. You might gain a little credibility if you were more precise with your presentations.

bdan-
I too like to use some heavy-for-caliber bullets in some rounds for some jobs. Like those you mentioned, most of them involve long-action or magnum calibers, (.270/150gr., 30-06/200gr., and .338/250gr.).

I was dissappointed in the velocities I was getting from my 7-08 with heavy bullets. Couldn't get close to advertised velocities with published data. (It has a short 20" barrel). Maybe with more powder experimentation I could get a 160 grain load to break 2600, but so far none have. I just went lighter on the bullets instead, trying to stay above 2700fps. Wouldn't you agree that there is a point at which low muzzle velocity begins to become a factor because it effects trajectory and remaining velocity at 400 yards?

CAS: There may be better long-range TARGET bullets today than then 160-gr Gameking, but the topic is antelope hunting, and the alternative bullets suggested were the 120-gr Nosler BT and the TSX.

southtexas: Muzzle exit speed is all you need to compute energy and the drop below the horizontal bore line.

You also need one dimension of direction, elevation, to compute rise above and fall below the bore line and sight line for your choice of a target zero range.

If I were trying to impress physicists, I might be more precise.

If I am trying to make point about hunting ballistics, I try to discuss it in terms most people understand.

If I am being harassed by people who don't know enough to know how little they know, I really don't care if they can't follow the explanation.

So wait, which is it, should we just stick to discussing hunting bullets, or are you going to start with the tales of the 160gr GK out of the 7x57 setting competition records?

You're back into that jackrabbit mode again. Slow down, Skippy, you're confusing yourself.

The FACT that the Gameking beat all the .308 match bullets in various matches for a decade is evidence that this HUNTING bullet is a superior long-range bullet, period - accurate, wind-resistant, and predictable - contrary to the assertions of those who insisted otherwise. That is not a "tale"; the NRA record books contain the places and dates.

But I had some people tell me I was an idiot for saying the .308 168-gr Matchking was a good long-range deer bullet. I guess our military snipers need you folks to set them straight, too.

Skippy, slow down. Now we are talking about sniper bullets? Crap, just one post ago we were talking about hunting bullets, then target bullets, now you changed the topic again to sniper bullets?

For the love of Pete, Man. try and stay on topic!

Reading back, no one posted that the GK wasn't accurate, wind resistant, or predictable, they just pointed out that the difference in wind drift over hunting ranges was negligible. For the luxury of a whopping 1.5" difference in drift at 400 yards, you got to pay a price in increased recoil and more drop. not much of a trade, IMO. Again, had you EVER fired a shot, you would know such things. Magazines and internet articles don't normally point out the intricacies that can be observed from just jerking the trigger a few times.

So, getting back on topic, if the sole reason that the 160gr GameKing is, as you say, "a superior long-range bullet" because it is "accurate, wind-resistant, and predictable", then in order to be intellectually honest, you must also argue that the bullets I listed are in fact superior to the GameKing.

You obviously haven't been too successful with impressing ANYONE, physicists or otherwise, and you are embarrassing us everyday engineers. Sometimes it's best just to shut up and go away. But I do understand that you have other motives.

Yes, I would have to say if you can't get above 2700 fps it might make sense to go with a lighter bullet. The 160's are probably ideal in the 280 Rem. and the 7 Mags, but maybe a little heavy for the little 7/08. I think if that was the case I would go with either a 140 or 150 grain, probably in the Nosler Ballistic Tip. But I don't think it makes sense to go lighter than 140 in a 7mm. (Barnes TSX might be an exception though)

I'm thinking that this is a great excuse to build a 280AI to solve the problem for good. (As if I needed another excuse, or another rifle.....).

Never shot a critter, personally, with a 7-08, nor a 'lope. Never claimed to, either.

Whacked stuff with a 7x57, and much other stuff, though. BT/DT with pards who have sluiced critters via the 7-08.

Pic can and will prove as necessary.

Simply stated, I hunt, I kill schit, I can prove it. You don't, won't, or can't.

Your choice as to the latter options.

Put up; shut up.

That's about where it stands.

southtexas: The comprehension problem is that you are not an engineer or a physicist.

Nimrod: Since you didn't put up, will you please shut up?

At the risk of stirring up painful memories for TSX worshippers, see the suggestion in my original post about also trying the 154-gr SST at expected hunting ranges and wind.

yes, I am.

It is curious that you persist in making declarative statements when you have no data. This tendency results in your often being incorrect and losing even more credibility.

So, what kind of physicist or engineer are you, that you cannot discuss basic concepts of ballistics, scalars, and vectors?

the kind that knows that speed is not a dimension.

Wrong, southtexas. The answer is you are not qualified to critique engineering calculations.

What the hell makes you qualified to say southtexas ain't quailified?

And upon exactly what data are you basing your opinion that I am not qualified?

dude...

Just a couple dead critters, that I've smoked:



More dead critters as I get some old pics scanned in. Or, I can have a couple fellas here that I've hunted with chime in.

Your turn.....

Comprende', compadre'?

I'll see your two dead chucks (although mine are both headless!)... and raise you a coyote with a big a$$ bullet hole (yeah buddy... that's the entrance!)

Did you snag one of those LS Fireballs VA?

Cheesy: Why not just load a 140 partition and shoot EVERYTHING with it. There will not be a dimes worth of advantage going to anything else. Then you can stop tormenting yourself over "this bullet for this" or "that bullet for that". If you work up a load with a Partition, you can stop looking for anything else....

Like I said, some people think the groundhog they killed at 75 yards with a .243 makes them an expert on a 7mm-08 bullet they never shot at an antelope.

I haven't shot an antelope with a 7mm-08, because when I lived and hunted in Wyoming, Texas and Colorado, I was shooting a .30-06 or .270. I got my first 7mm-08 just 10 years ago, as a 300-meter running boar target rifle, then a deer rifle for my son, then another. Knowing what the .270 will do in wind with a 3,000 fps bullet and what the 7mms do in wind with a 120, 140, 150 and 160-gr bullet, is the basis for my suggestions that hunters see how the 154 and 160 shoot in their rifles.

And yet you feel compelled to lecture all of us on the proper bullet choice for antelope out of the 7-08.

The irony runs deep....................

Shall I restate once again:

"Hello, Kettle,.....This is Lee,......You're black!

CAS -
You think someone who has shot one antelope is an expert, yet someone who has shot dozens of deer and antelope with a variety of cartridges and thousands of targets at long range is a dummy.

Your naive world view attempts to extrapolate from a narrow experience to an opinion on everything. Mine is distill a broad set of appropriate knowledge and direct experience to application of one question at a time.

That's why you are so often wrong.

Dozens of deer... dozens of PRONGHORN... no pictures?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say my 4 year old has been in on more deer kills than Lee has...

No, I have never made that argument. I do know however that someone who has NEVER shot an antelope with a 7-08 with any bullet (YOU!) is absolutely, positively, NOT an expert.




Is there anything better than being lectured about a "naive world view" by someone who claims to be an expert on things that he admits to NEVER HAVING DONE?




A perfect explanation of your reason for the excessive use of Google. Thank you.

If you are still reading replys I feel for ya man!

I've shot all those bullets out of my 700 Ti, same barrel as yours. All shoot acceptable accuracy.

I shoot the 140 TSX for deer hunting. It shoots the most consistant of all the bullets I've tried, day in day out in many differnt climate conditions (this is Floirda, the weather changes by the minute). They kill deer like the hammer of Thor, I would expect the same on the speed goats. I have not shot a speed goat yet, but there is a chance a stray goat will come by at a couple of stands I hunt. If one walks in, he is mine.....well my father will insist that I share but that's okay.

Seriously, take your favorite brass, pop in a WLR primer, fill it full of H4350 (leave a little room for the bullet), stick that bullet on top (make sure it is nice and straight), go sight the gun in dead on @ 200 yards and go hunting. Good luck.

I bet Cheesy's antelope is dead and mounted by now. Can't be easy being Cheesy.

I keep saying that I won't open this thread anymore, but, I am simply stunned everytime I see Lee digging his own hole deeper, and deeper and..........grin

Is that the sum total of your experience with the 7mm-08, "Huntr"?

CAS, how many antelope have you shot?
How many deer or antelope have you shot at 300 yards?
How many deer or antelope have you shot with the 7mm-08?
Have you ever used the 154-gr or 160-gr bullets out of a 7mm-08 on anything, including paper targets?

Bonus question:
Why do you think my experience with 130-gr bullets out of my .270s is irrelevant to my experience with 120, 140, 154, and 160-gr bullets out of my 7mm-08s?

Lee,

You have taken deflecting to a higher art form. You still have not backed up a SINGLE claim you have made, whether it be about hunting, shooting, engineering, programming, writing code, working with walnut, bending stocks using liquid anhydrous ammonia, experience with M40s, explaining how you shot with the Army MTU in 1968 and yet still drill at the armory, still in service 39 years later, etc., etc., etc.

Lee, I will go ahead and say that you are a pathological liar. On top of that you are a narcissist, and a completely unfounded one at that.

Before you go asking anyone else to prove their experience (which has consequently been done dozens upon dozens of times), you need to back up ONE SINGLE CLAIM THAT YOU HAVE MADE!

Now, as to your questions:

CAS, how many antelope have you shot? - I guarantee it is more than you.

How many deer or antelope have you shot at 300 yards? - EXACTLY at 300 yards, none. At over 300 yards, 7 in the past 3 years, probably close to a dozen in the last 10.

How many deer or antelope have you shot with the 7mm-08? - 11

Have you ever used the 154-gr or 160-gr bullets out of a 7mm-08 on anything, including paper targets? - Well beyond 4000 154s and 160s have gone down the tube of various 7-08s, launched by the movement of my trigger finger. Add in 168s and 175gr bullets, and the figure is well in excess of 10,000 rounds.

With all that alleged experience with the 7mm-08, why don't you post an intelligent answer to the original question about our bullet preference?

Why don't you do what CAS just did... and list your ACTUALL EXPERIENCE? I find it rather indicitive of your character that you'd not abide by the standards that you're holding others to. You asked about actuall experience... he gave it, as did I. We asked about your actuall experience... and you dodge the question. If... and that's a HUGE if... you have actually shot anything with a 130 out of a .270... how does that qualify you to make assumptions of performance of 7mm-08 loads? Especially when you fire at everyone for not having ACTUALL EXPERIENCE with the EXACT bullet in the EXACT caliber in question. You truly are an amazing creature Lee... and it's a shame you missed your calling in life... we can never run short of ner-to-do-well slimey skunks like you in public office. Start answering some dierct questions with some direct answers... or STFU... I'd prefer you do the latter. ~JT

I already did. Exactly how many antelope, what size, and what range do I have to kill with the 120-gr BT and the 160-gr Gameking for it be satisfy you armchair hunters?

You blew off Mule Deer's experience. I doubt Craig Boddington, Jack O'Connor or I have enough, if any of us disagree with your theories.

WHAT IS YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH THE 7MM BULLETS ON GAME... not MD's, or Boddington's, or O'Connor's... we can use google too.

YOU HAVE TO KILL ONE, AT LEAST. My point is you bash on others for not having EXACT EXPERIENCE WITH EXACT BULLET ON EXACT GAME WITH EXACT CALIBER DURRING EXACTLY THE SAME LUNAR PHASE... but have none yourself. You're a troll... we all know it... yet we continue to feed your ever contradictive ego. I'll refrain from doing so henceforth now and forever on... go ahead now... you can have the last word... no one will believe it anyway. ~JT

I have posted many, MANY times that IME the perfect bullet out of the 7-08 is the 120 TSX. I have backed that up with my observation that it kicks noticeably less and flys noticeably flatter at hunting ranges than heavyweights out of the 7-08. It will outdig bullets of heavier weight due to it's construction once it hits game, and particularly when it hits bone.

The 168gr VLD bullets work great for long range shooting, but their benefits can't really be realized until you get past 600 yards. I have never shot a single large game animal that far, so I have no need to run heavy VLDs for game. Further, were I to consciously try to take game beyond 600 yards, I would choose my 300 Roy, as it whips the 7-08's ass in every category that counts to me in on game performance at those ranges.

Also, go ahead and drop your assertion that I discounted Mule Deers experience. I noted that a 160gr GK would indeed expand at long ranges due to it's ultra-soft construction. The fact that it will expand, does not make it the ideal choice, however. If you re-read MD's post, you will notice that he clearly left out the endorsement of the 160 GK as the ultimate long range game bullet.

The ball's in your court.

Well, finally, you posted your opinion and supported why YOU believe in the 120-gr TSX. Now, maybe some others will try, if they have any experience as a basis for their opinion.

Meanwhile, though I like the 120-gr bullets I have used out of the 7mm-08 (not including the TSX), I don't understand the adamant opposition some people have to the suggestion that the hunter try 140s, 154s and 160s in his rifle, especially if he thinks he might use it for something more than pronghorn and deer.

What works for you doesn't necessarily work for every other hunter. If this one is having good luck with conventional 140-gr bullets on deer, that is where his quest should start, trying a 140-gr BT, SST, Remington Accutip ammo, and Light Magnums.

DDP -

Since your criticism is a baseless false claim about me, it deserves no response. I shouldn't even post this. Feel free to answer the same questions I posed to CAS.

Like the company you associate yourself with...Your a legend in your own mind

Jack O'Connor never shot anything with a 7mm-08.
He never used a TSX or any polymer-tipped bullet, either.
Do you think his experience with the .270 and 7x57 on antelope is of no value?

CAS,DDP,dvd----DFTFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes--I shoot a 7-08 and 120x's--Never had the chance to chase speedgoats---The gun is 22 for 25 shots on critters from nutria to a 265#9 pt WT from 45 to 380 lasered yds. It's the purple 7 that our own Rick Bin named The Starwars Doohickey. YMMV
When I run outta x's then I'll shoot the tsx in it! Again--YMMV


George

Lee,

No one here understands you adamant opposition to trying the 120 TSX, nor your incessant harping that it is inferior or unsuitable based on the fact that you have never tried it.

And please, back away from the crack pipe. Placing yourself in the company of JB, JOC and Boddington is truly an insult to their careers and our sensibilities.

Yep, I did. And she's a shooter, too. My favorite rifle, easily. Probably ought not tell ya that I snagged it after it'd had been on a local dealer's rack for almost 2 years.... and that I got it basically at cost..... but I guess I just did.

Still ain't seen a Lee critter, huh?

Happy for ya! When you get bored with it let me know. I'll find it a good home next to your 8X Sightron.

So not happening....

How's that 8x workin' for ya?

Laffin'!

Love the 8x on my 17hmr for sage rats, it seems a good fit. Paste crosshairs and watch the show.....

Thanks for fixing me up VA.

Cheesy,

I can't believe that I missed all the fun on this one but I've used most of the bullets you mentioned on deer and they are good ones.


I leave tomorrow to hunt goats in Arizona and I'll be using my 257 Weatherby with 115 grain ballistic tips at nearly 3500 fps.
It is hard to beat ballistic tips on this size critter.

I would use the one that shoots best for you but I'd be inclined to go with a 120 ballistic at top velocity. The last antelope that I took was at a little over 350 yards and an accubond in 7mm flavor did the work and worked just fine. The one before that was taken with a 140 grain Hornady BTSP and it worked great too.

Shoot the one you like and go hunting.

Britt

castandblast;

FWIW, I put the new Sightron SII Big Sky 6x42 on the Fireball. Match perfectly, imho.

Looks good there to me. Good glass for the money IMHO.

Got a 3-9x Leupy on ebay now so I can turn it into a fixed 6x and see what all the buzz is about.

Those fireballs went quick. The only one I saw was at the 'smiths getting some accuracy issues fixed.