Edited for legal clairity
The first gun I ever bought as a kid was a Remington 582. About 40 years ago while I was visiting my grandparents someone decided they wanted it more than I did and stole it out of my car. I have always missed owning that gun and over the last few years have been trying to find one to replace it. I have found that they are few and far between. I have located one for sale in the Minneapolis / St. Paul area but the owner will only sell to a local buyer (I am now in Alaska). I am trying to find someone that will purchase the rifle and ship it from a local FFL to my local FFL. If you are in the Minneapolis / St. Paul area and would be willing to facilitate this transaction for me please let me know what you would want in exchange for your service. Thanks in advance for the help.
You need to get an FFL involved...it must transfer through a dealer for an out of state sale.
Question 21.a on the 4473...
I can’t believe nobody has volunteered to become a felon yet😂
technically, i think you need two FFL holders, one on each end
I'm sure you're a great guy, but from a legal perspective what you're asking is highly sketch.
I'd just ask the seller to name 2-3 local pawn shops close buy, then call them on the phone and make arrangements for the seller to drop it off.
IME often times pawn shops are more eager to make a buck than gun shops and can be less snooty/easier to work with.
If the seller won't do that, it might be a stolen gun, or he can't legally own it anyway.
Deadeye,
Make the seller an offer that is compelling in terms of price for them to ship it FFL to FFL for you. You’re not going to get any members here to get involved in what I think you might not realize is called a “straw purchase.” Look that phrase up and learn.
If you do realize what you’re asking and don’t care then piss off.
I can’t believe nobody has volunteered to become a felon yet😂
How would you be a felon, if you bought said rifle, then he bought it off you and you shipped from a ffl to his ffl. Explain that one for me. Remember he wants it shipped to his FFL so he's doing a background check.
Says the man who ships ammo through the Post Office.
Deadeye,
Make the seller an offer that is compelling in terms of price for them to ship it FFL to FFL for you. You’re not going to get any members here to get involved in what I think you might not realize is called a “straw purchase.” Look that phrase up and learn.
If you do realize what you’re asking and don’t care then piss off.
Think you need to read up on straw purchase. Hes going through a FFL to receive the rifle, meaning paper work and background check
Says the man who ships ammo through the Post Office.
Hell yeah, you can't do that?
I can’t believe nobody has volunteered to become a felon yet😂
How would you be a felon, if you bought said rifle, then he bought it off you and you shipped from a ffl to his ffl. Explain that one for me. Remember he wants it shipped to his FFL so he's doing a background check.
Exactly! How is this illegal?
People sell guns on this site all the time. As long as the guy who buys it ships it to an FFL in AK, what's the issue? Doesn't even have to be FFL to FFL.
I can’t believe nobody has volunteered to become a felon yet😂
How would you be a felon, if you bought said rifle, then he bought it off you and you shipped from a ffl to his ffl. Explain that one for me. Remember he wants it shipped to his FFL so he's doing a background check.
Exactly! How is this illegal?
People sell guns on this site all the time. As long as the guy who buys it ships it to an FFL in AK, what's the issue? Doesn't even have to be FFL to FFL.
BINGO
Where's bricktop when you need him
Question 21.a on the 4473...
You can legally do what he asks as long as the rifle ships to an
FFL in AK and
HE fills out a form 4473 on it as part of the transfer process. As long as the OP can pass the background check on his end when he picks the rifle up from his transfer agent there is no straw purchase. If he can't then the transfer agent in AK gets a free rifle to sell as I wouldn't refund the money or pay to have it shipped back to me. However, asking someone to ship directly to him or his FFL is the wrong way to word it in the original post.
The best bet for the OP would be he pays a premium to have the guy who is selling the rifle deliver it to a local FFL and pay to have them ship it if he wants the rifle that badly. If I lived in the area I'd sure as charge extra for my time and efforts to go buy a rifle, package it, insure, and ship it to the OP's FFL so he could do the form 4473 on it. There are two on Gunbroker.com right now and both of the seller ship to AK. I'd buy the one for $219 buy it now with $20 ground shipping from TN even though it needs some cleaning up as it looks a little worn.
isn't it illegal to buy a gun for sole purpose of selling it?
[quote=JAC43]Question 21.a on the 4473...
You can legally do what he asks as long as the rifle ships to an
FFL in AK and
HE fills out a form 4473 on it as part of the transfer process. As long as the OP can pass the background check on his end when he picks the rifle up from his transfer agent there is no straw purchase. If he can't then the transfer agent in AK gets a free rifle to sell as I wouldn't refund the money or pay to have it shipped back to me. However, asking someone to ship directly to him or his FFL is the wrong way to word it in the original post.
The best bet for the OP would be he pays a premium to have the guy who is selling the rifle deliver it to a local FFL and pay to have them ship it if he wants the rifle that badly. If I lived in the area I'd sure as charge extra for my time and efforts to go buy a rifle, package it, insure, and ship it to the OP's FFL so he could do the form 4473 on it. There are two on Gunbroker.com right now and both of the seller ship to AK. I'd buy the one for $219 buy it now with $20 ground shipping from TN even though it needs some cleaning up as it looks a little worn.
[/quote
OP stated shipped to his FFL
[quote=JAC43]Question 21.a on the 4473...
You can legally do what he asks as long as the rifle ships to an
FFL in AK and
HE fills out a form 4473 on it as part of the transfer process. As long as the OP can pass the background check on his end when he picks the rifle up from his transfer agent there is no straw purchase. If he can't then the transfer agent in AK gets a free rifle to sell as I wouldn't refund the money or pay to have it shipped back to me. However, asking someone to ship directly to him or his FFL is the wrong way to word it in the original post.
The best bet for the OP would be he pays a premium to have the guy who is selling the rifle deliver it to a local FFL and pay to have them ship it if he wants the rifle that badly. If I lived in the area I'd sure as charge extra for my time and efforts to go buy a rifle, package it, insure, and ship it to the OP's FFL so he could do the form 4473 on it. There are two on Gunbroker.com right now and both of the seller ship to AK. I'd buy the one for $219 buy it now with $20 ground shipping from TN even though it needs some cleaning up as it looks a little worn.
[/quote
OP stated shipped to his FFL
isn't it illegal to buy a gun for sole purpose of selling it?
Don't gun dealers do that for a living
I can’t believe nobody has volunteered to become a felon yet😂
This^^^^^!
Question 21.a on the 4473...
You can legally do what he asks as long as the rifle ships to an
FFL in AK and
HE fills out a form 4473 on it as part of the transfer process. .... However, asking someone to ship directly to him or his FFL is the wrong way to word it in the original post.
OP stated shipped to his FFL
Not exactly, he did say shipped to "me/or my local FFL" in the original post. I don't think my reading comprehension is that far off.
I am trying to find someone that will purchase the rifle and ship it to me/or my local FFL. If you are in the Minneapolis / St. Paul area and would be willing to facilitate this transaction for me please let me know what you would want in exchange for your service. Thanks in advance for the help.
Shipping to an FFL for OP to fill out a 4473 is not a straw purchase. OP did state ship to him or his FFL. Shipping directly to him is a no no of course.
Buying for purpose of turning an occasional profit is not illegal.
From ATF pamphlet in a quick google search- "As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast, if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal collection, you do not need to be licensed."
Silly me I assumed that there would be multiple members on this site that hold FFL's and one might be in a position to help me out. Thanks to those who have offered constructive suggestions. To the rest that want to flame me, enjoy. If you don't want to help out please feel free not to.
Question 21.a on the 4473...
You can legally do what he asks as long as the rifle ships to an
FFL in AK and
HE fills out a form 4473 on it as part of the transfer process. As long as the OP can pass the background check on his end when he picks the rifle up from his transfer agent there is no straw purchase. If he can't then the transfer agent in AK gets a free rifle to sell as I wouldn't refund the money or pay to have it shipped back to me. However, asking someone to ship directly to him or his FFL is the wrong way to word it in the original post.
The best bet for the OP would be he pays a premium to have the guy who is selling the rifle deliver it to a local FFL and pay to have them ship it if he wants the rifle that badly. If I lived in the area I'd sure as charge extra for my time and efforts to go buy a rifle, package it, insure, and ship it to the OP's FFL so he could do the form 4473 on it. There are two on Gunbroker.com right now and both of the seller ship to AK. I'd buy the one for $219 buy it now with $20 ground shipping from TN even though it needs some cleaning up as it looks a little worn.
I have, and do see the one for $700 but that is beyond my threshold of how bad I want one. I do not see the listing for the other one. If you could provide a link I would greatly appriciate it.
I don't know that it would be a straw purchase, as long as the gun was shipped to the OP's FFL... and it would have to, to be legal. The ATF still gets their background check on the OP. I'm not sure how local FTF sales go in MN. Maybe they require a FFL for an instate FFL transfer also, which means that both buyers get checked.. Still, I agree with finding a FFL and arranging for a drop off. I've done that for folks that are skiddish on shipping a gun. Could be the current owner doesn't want any paperwork trail, and that could be a red flag as previously suggested. Could also just be someone that doesn't want to go through the hassle of shipping. Might even think it is illegal to ship a firearm. I've spoken with a lot of folks that are just spooked by the ATF.
Deadeye,
Make the seller an offer that is compelling in terms of price for them to ship it FFL to FFL for you. You’re not going to get any members here to get involved in what I think you might not realize is called a “straw purchase.” Look that phrase up and learn.
If you do realize what you’re asking and don’t care then piss off.
Think you need to read up on straw purchase. Hes going through a FFL to receive the rifle, meaning paper work and background check
I may put myself on ignore after reading my comment and your response! Yeah, if he doesn’t take possession directly from his proxy but rather goes through an FFL to take possession, should be fine.
I read that he wanted direct shipment from the buyer to him. He states that as an option but I think maybe he didn’t mean it that way. Either way, open mouth, insert foot on my part.
My apologies to the OP for my mistake.
isn't it illegal to buy a gun for sole purpose of selling it?
Don't gun dealers do that for a living
yes , they are gun dealers.
Question 21.a on the 4473...
You can legally do what he asks as long as the rifle ships to an
FFL in AK and
HE fills out a form 4473 on it as part of the transfer process. As long as the OP can pass the background check on his end when he picks the rifle up from his transfer agent there is no straw purchase. If he can't then the transfer agent in AK gets a free rifle to sell as I wouldn't refund the money or pay to have it shipped back to me. However, asking someone to ship directly to him or his FFL is the wrong way to word it in the original post.
The best bet for the OP would be he pays a premium to have the guy who is selling the rifle deliver it to a local FFL and pay to have them ship it if he wants the rifle that badly. If I lived in the area I'd sure as charge extra for my time and efforts to go buy a rifle, package it, insure, and ship it to the OP's FFL so he could do the form 4473 on it. There are two on Gunbroker.com right now and both of the seller ship to AK. I'd buy the one for $219 buy it now with $20 ground shipping from TN even though it needs some cleaning up as it looks a little worn.
Yeah you can mail a guy a rifle in AK FFL to FFL like you say, but that's not happening here. This is really easy. Prospective buyer goes and tries to buy this rifle and the 4473 is laid out in front of him. He gets to Q 21.
21.a Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) (ATF Form 5300.9A)?
Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. Exception: If you are only picking up a repairedfirearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 21.a. and may proceed to question 21.b.
The answer of course is no, the fella picking up this rifle with intent to forward it to AK can't say "yes" to this question. End of deal.
[quote=JAC43]Question 21.a on the 4473...
You can legally do what he asks as long as the rifle ships to an
FFL in AK and
HE fills out a form 4473 on it as part of the transfer process. As long as the OP can pass the background check on his end when he picks the rifle up from his transfer agent there is no straw purchase. If he can't then the transfer agent in AK gets a free rifle to sell as I wouldn't refund the money or pay to have it shipped back to me. However, asking someone to ship directly to him or his FFL is the wrong way to word it in the original post.
The best bet for the OP would be he pays a premium to have the guy who is selling the rifle deliver it to a local FFL and pay to have them ship it if he wants the rifle that badly. If I lived in the area I'd sure as charge extra for my time and efforts to go buy a rifle, package it, insure, and ship it to the OP's FFL so he could do the form 4473 on it. There are two on Gunbroker.com
The answer of course is no, the fella picking up this rifle with intent to forward it to AK can't say "yes" to this question. End of deal.
Thought you would be buying it, filling out a 4473, sell it to him, and then ship to his FFL where he fills out a 4473, done deal
I do not see the listing for the other one. If you could provide a link I would greatly appriciate it.
The answer of course is no, the fella picking up this rifle with intent to forward it to AK can't say "yes" to this question. End of deal.
I've done it a few times, then turned around and shipped a rifle to an FFL of a deserving soldier or other person who I felt deserved a nice rifle. It wasn't a lie, I bought the rifle with the sole intent of giving it to someone else. That doesn't change the fact at the time I filled out the 4473 I was the actual transferee/buyer. Then the person I shipped it to became the actual transferee, this time the OP would be the buyer.
I do not see the listing for the other one. If you could provide a link I would greatly appriciate it.
The answer of course is no, the fella picking up this rifle with intent to forward it to AK can't say "yes" to this question. End of deal.
I've done it a few times, then turned around and shipped a rifle to an FFL of a deserving soldier or other person who I felt deserved a nice rifle. It wasn't a lie, I bought the rifle with the sole intent of giving it to someone else. That doesn't change the fact at the time I filled out the 4473 I was the actual transferee/buyer. Then the person I shipped it to became the actual transferee, this time the OP would be the buyer.
Once you are able to rationalize dishonesty there is no limit to what you might accomplish.
....well, damn....just damn....
IMO if you pay seller enough he will get it to a FFL. Up the ante if it's that special to you or keep looking. WTB posts on several sites may get a gun for you as well. Many options!
I do not see the listing for the other one. If you could provide a link I would greatly appriciate it.
The answer of course is no, the fella picking up this rifle with intent to forward it to AK can't say "yes" to this question. End of deal.
I've done it a few times, then turned around and shipped a rifle to an FFL of a deserving soldier or other person who I felt deserved a nice rifle. It wasn't a lie, I bought the rifle with the sole intent of giving it to someone else. That doesn't change the fact at the time I filled out the 4473 I was the actual transferee/buyer. Then the person I shipped it to became the actual transferee, this time the OP would be the buyer.
Once you are able to rationalize dishonesty there is no limit to what you might accomplish.
All the form asks is if I'm the actual buyer, it never asks or states that I have to be the actual end user or I have to own it for a certain amount of time. This question is to prevent Straw Purchases for someone who can't legally buy/posses a firearm. This is not the case if you're shipping to a receiving FFL for a legal transfer across state lines to a private individual.
Edited for legal clairity
The first gun I ever bought as a kid was a Remington 582. About 40 years ago while I was visiting my grandparents someone decided they wanted it more than I did and stole it out of my car. I have always missed owning that gun and over the last few years have been trying to find one to replace it. I have found that they are few and far between. I have located one for sale in the Minneapolis / St. Paul area but the owner will only sell to a local buyer (I am now in Alaska). I am trying to find someone that will purchase the rifle and ship it from a local FFL to my local FFL. If you are in the Minneapolis / St. Paul area and would be willing to facilitate this transaction for me please let me know what you would want in exchange for your service. Thanks in advance for the help.
Put out a WTB over on Rimfire Central. Sounds like as mentioned above, your seller may be concealing non ownership.
For the first sale, if it is face to face, on a long gun, there would be no paperwork needed. At least if the seller and buyer were both from the same state. If the seller is a dealer, then there would need to be FFL paperwork filled out.
Then the buyer decides he doesn't want the gun any longer, and knows of a buyer in Alaska. He ships it to a FFL transfer dealer in Alaska, and everything is kosher. The gun wouldn't even have to be shipped from a FFL dealer.
Why overcomplicate a fart?
Here is the specifics on Minnesota:
Q: Do the restrictions above apply to person-to-person gun sales?
A: Minnesota doesn't require background checks or permits with private sales, like those at gun shows. A buyer who is 18 can purchase a handgun or assault-style rifle in a person-to-person sale at a gun show or in a personal transaction, and a 14-year-old can buy any other kind of rifle or shotgun in a person-to-person transaction 'without' the permission of a parent.
I can’t believe nobody has volunteered to become a felon yet😂
This^^^^^!
My thoughts also! 😳
Why overcomplicate a fart?
Thats the way the guys are on the fire, there key board lawyers
Better off to just file a KMA 5teD form and be done with it!
As long as the local buyer (someone on behalf of the OP) lawfully buys the firearm and then lawfully ships it to an FFL for the OP and the OP fills out the BATF form, nobody has done anything wrong. AND, it doesn't even come close to being a "straw man" purchase. If the local guy working on behalf of the OP has a high pucker factor, ship from an FFL too. That's not necessary; but, if it gives one peace of mind, do it. Or, if the local guy has an extremely high pucker factor, he can have the OP send him the money, and have the local seller meet him at an FFL, pay the seller to turn the firearm over to the FFL for shipping and have the FFL ship to the OP's FFL. Every one of these three methods is legal. I would do every one of them for anybody on this forum. Well, anybody who hasn't proven himself to be a complete and total A-hole.
Feds arrested a former police officer who bought a rifle with purpose to sell it to his father in law.
He thought he was doing it correctly since he used FFL to buy and then bit later transfer gun to father in law .
Feds arrested based on 4473 question ...is this purchase for the person filling out form etc etc.
Apparently his intent to transfer at time of purchase got him in trouble
isn't it illegal to buy a gun for sole purpose of selling it?
Isn’t this what Gunshop’s do?
When a person says he will only sell to a local buyer or face to face, I get concerned right away!!!!
That gun is stolen.
When a person says he will only sell to a local buyer or face to face, I get concerned right away!!!!
That gun is stolen.
![[Linked Image from lifeisbutalabyrinth.files.wordpress.com]](https://lifeisbutalabyrinth.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/crockoshit.jpeg)
Do I have to read before making comments?
isn't it illegal to buy a gun for sole purpose of selling it?
No.
Better off to just file a KMA 5teD form and be done with it!
If this means what I think it means you sir are a genius!!!!
Well, I am not certain, nor do I have a clue whatsoever generally about such things, so I will just make up a bunch of chit and post it. I could be right, maybe.
Campfire Guy
Why overcomplicate a fart?
Thats the way the guys are on the fire, there key board lawyers
That gets the award for the truest comment! That's why topics such as these go on for multiple pages with no useful information or tons of misleading information
The question on the form regarding 'are you the actual transferee...', he's transferring it to an FFL up in AK so the actual buyer has to answer that same question when he takes ownership from HIS FFL. That question is for the people who can't legally purchase a firearm and has someone buy it for them. In other words, some John Q Public who has multiple felonies has Susie GoodyGoody buy it from him and John bypasses the FFL check completely. It's not rocket science people.
Feds arrested a former police officer who bought a rifle with purpose to sell it to his father in law.
He thought he was doing it correctly since he used FFL to buy and then bit later transfer gun to father in law .
Feds arrested based on 4473 question ...is this purchase for the person filling out form etc etc.
Apparently his intent to transfer at time of purchase got him in trouble
Got any more to this story? I'm not going to call BS on this, but it isn't smelling right. We're missing a few of the "W's" in the story.
Silly me I assumed that there would be multiple members on this site that hold FFL's and one might be in a position to help me out. Thanks to those who have offered constructive suggestions. To the rest that want to flame me, enjoy. If you don't want to help out please feel free not to.
Wait, now you are going to be a dick too? Good luck with that.
Read it in American Rifleman last year if memory serves.
Feds arrested a former police officer who bought a rifle with purpose to sell it to his father in law.
He thought he was doing it correctly since he used FFL to buy and then bit later transfer gun to father in law .
Feds arrested based on 4473 question ...is this purchase for the person filling out form etc etc.
Apparently his intent to transfer at time of purchase got him in trouble
Yes, it is a true story. I can't provide a link to it but it could be researched and found with some time.
The way I recall it is that the ex-cop had a connecton to buy firearms at a discount, his relative wanted a certain firearm (that is legal to own) and the ex-cop purchased the firearm for the relative. The ex-cop did the 4473 form and when the firearm was transfered to the relative he also did a 4473. The thing that they got them on was that the ex-cop bought the firearm knowing that he was buying it for someone else and checked the box that he was purchasing it for himself but knowing that it was going to be transferred to the relative.
I recall that it was fought through the court of appeals and the ruled against the cop since he had bought it knowing that it was going to be transferred, although it was done through FFL's and appeared to be legal the court still found him guilty because he had checked the box that indicated he was purchasing it for himself.
I have always suspected that there may have been more of a back story to this or why else would the BATF even have caught it. But regardless of that the precedent for prosecution is already establilshed.
drover
Feds arrested a former police officer who bought a rifle with purpose to sell it to his father in law.
He thought he was doing it correctly since he used FFL to buy and then bit later transfer gun to father in law .
Feds arrested based on 4473 question ...is this purchase for the person filling out form etc etc.
Apparently his intent to transfer at time of purchase got him in trouble
Yes, it is a true story. I can't provide a link to it but it could be researched and found with some time.
The way I recall it is that the ex-cop had a connecton to buy firearms at a discount, his relative wanted a certain firearm (that is legal to own) and the ex-cop purchased the firearm for the relative. The ex-cop did the 4473 form and when the firearm was transfered to the relative he also did a 4473. The thing that they got them on was that the ex-cop bought the firearm knowing that he was buying it for someone else and checked the box that he was purchasing it for himself but knowing that it was going to be transferred to the relative.
I recall that it was fought through the court of appeals and the ruled against the cop since he had bought it knowing that it was going to be transferred, although it was done through FFL's and appeared to be legal the court still found him guilty because he had checked the box that indicated he was purchasing it for himself.
I have always suspected that there may have been more of a back story to this or why else would the BATF even have caught it. But regardless of that the precedent for prosecution is already establilshed.
drover
I had read that also. Here is a link to one story.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...member/nhhiNOgioLj12bsQGt5MJO/story.html
When a person says he will only sell to a local buyer or face to face, I get concerned right away!!!!
That gun is stolen.
There is NO other reason for this except a stolen gun!
Sure, however, in this case there'd be a privite transfer (original owner to intermediary), no 4473. Otherwise the intermediary would not be needed, it'd just be original owner, to FFL to ship. It'd be ridiculous to go original owner to intermediary at FFL, then have FFL ship for the intermediary. No point to it and....
What would not be OK would be original owner sells via FFL with 4473 to intermediary then intermediary ships to AK FFL. Same as the former police case. Intermediary is buying from a dealer with intent to sell to a specific individual which is not legal.
Think this chit's silly, wait 10 years.
When a person says he will only sell to a local buyer or face to face, I get concerned right away!!!!
That gun is stolen.
There is NO other reason for this except a stolen gun!
Bullchit.
Could be.
The owner doesn't know about the process of shipping a firearm to someone.
Could be.
The seller does not have a box.
Could be.
The seller does not go for no government 4473 bullchit.
It could be many numerous other reasons besides being stolen. Many here have made such offers to sell handguns simply cause they don't want to screw with it. FTF is damned straight up easy and cheap AND private.
isn't it illegal to buy a gun for sole purpose of selling it?
Isn’t this what Gunshop’s do?
Gun shops are FFL dealers - hence a very big difference and they do not sign a 4473 under penalty of perjury that they are buying the gun for themselves... Now, the legal way for this transaction to complete is for the out of state buyer to find a FFL dealer either in his state or the seller’s state to make the purchase and do a transfer in state and then the buyer picks up the gun after filling out required paperwork.
Nothing felonious about it. Anyone can buy the gun and then sell it to the Alaskan guy that wants it but it must be shipped to an FFL local to the guy wanting it. Once the FFL runs his NICS check there's no problems. Why's everyone panicing? Nothing wrong about it whatsoever as long as the original buyer sends the gun the the Alaskan guys FFL to do the transfer.
Do you not read the stories you link, or did the headline just fit the narrative? From the Boston Globe story you linked the former Boston PO (Adarbaad Karani) sold were pistols that:
State law bars civilians from purchasing the two Glock models.
He didn't break any Federal laws and wasn't being indicted on any Federal charges, but he is/was in deep chit with Boston and MA state prosecutors for selling firearms civilians weren't allowed to purchase. Ignorance is rarely a good defense, especially so if you're or were a POST certified officer of the law. To quote some more from the linked article:
Authorities did not name the civilians , but the US attorney’s office said one of the firearms “was found in possession of Desmond Crawford, an alleged member of the Columbia Point Dawgs, at the time of his arrest in November 2015.”
Federal gun- and racketeering-related charges are still pending against Crawford.
Karani has “no affiliation whatsoever” with the Dawgs, Carney said.
He said one of Karani’s friends had reported the gun stolen from his car.
So tell me how this story pertains to what is being asked by the OP? If the Former PO had sold these firearms out of state
where they were legal for civilians to own this wouldn't have been a story at all.
When a person says he will only sell to a local buyer or face to face, I get concerned right away!!!!
That gun is stolen.
There is NO other reason for this except a stolen gun!
Bullchit.
Could be.
The owner doesn't know about the process of shipping a firearm to someone.
Could be.
The seller does not have a box.
Could be.
The seller does not go for no government 4473 bullchit.
It could be many numerous other reasons besides being stolen. Many here have made such offers to sell handguns simply cause they don't want to screw with it. FTF is damned straight up easy and cheap AND private.
You are wrong the only reason a person demands face to face is the gun is stolen BTW GFY with your total crap.
Feds arrested a former police officer who bought a rifle with purpose to sell it to his father in law.
He thought he was doing it correctly since he used FFL to buy and then bit later transfer gun to father in law .
Feds arrested based on 4473 question ...is this purchase for the person filling out form etc etc.
Apparently his intent to transfer at time of purchase got him in trouble
So I searched and I found the
ARTICLE, and it looks like the only thing that got this former PO in trouble was accepting money from his Uncle beforehand to purchase the firearm. There was unfortunately for this former PO a paper trail for the prosecutors to follow in the form of his uncles check.
The SCOTUS ruling in 2014 did still say it was perfectly legal to sell or gift firearms on the secondary market:
Opinion of the Court
Justice Elena Kagan, author of the majority opinion
The Court held that despite not mentioning the words "straw buyers", the federal gun law that regulates transactions with "persons" or "transferees" considers the "persons" or "transferees" to be the ones getting the gun at the end of the day, not the straw persons completing the transaction on their behalf.[17] Failure to interpret the law in such way, the Court held, would undermine the purpose of the law, which is to prevent guns from falling into the wrong hands. "Deliverymen, after all, are not so hard to come by."[18] The majority found Abramski's theory, that the federal law only cares about the person that is buying the gun and not the final buyer not to be true. The Court's majority opinion, written by Justice Kagan, held that if you interpret the terms "person" and "transferee," to mean "the man at the counter", you would undermine the purpose of the statutes, which is to prevent guns from falling into the wrong hands.[19] The Court therefore preferred to interpret the terms "person," and "transferee," to mean "the man getting, and always meant to get, the firearm".[17]
The Court further stated that although congress allowed the resale and gifting of a gun by an individual, without requiring form or background checks, that is not proof that congress did not care about straw buyers. "Yes, Congress decided to regulate dealers' sales, while leaving the secondary market for guns largely untouched ...And yes, that choice (like pretty much everything Congress does) was surely a result of compromise. But no, straw arrangements are not a part of the secondary market, separate and apart from the dealer's sale."
So the OP's original post could possibly be seen as a "straw purchase" according to this ruling if you sent his FFL agent the firearm he asked for in MI. However, it seems if you spend your own money a firearm becomes part of your private collection. Then according to the ATF you're allowed to occasionally buy and sell firearms purchased from said private collection without an FFL as long as you're not breaking any State or Local laws
(ATF Publication 5310.2 January 2016). There also doesn't seem to be any ruling as to how long you have to keep a firearm in your private collection before liquidating, just that you can't make buying and selling firearms in your collection a regular occurance with the intent to profit.
Good Guys Pawn and Guns in Omaha had a nice 582 in the rack the last time that was in there priced around $250.
402-397-2400 or
[email protected]The owner, Doug Hassel, really is good guy and honest/fair as you'll find in the business.
How many of you pecker heads are smoking dope and filling out 4473's ?
What it comes down to is that the Gov (BATF) holds all the cards. If they decide to go after someone for an infraction, no matter how minor, they are going to win and probably break you financially. The Gov has 1000's of lawyers most of who want to make a name for themsemselves, how long can the average Joe afford to fight the Gov using his own money. The Gov does not have to be right but when they prosecute someone but that person has to prove that they were innocent. Citing the above article it appears that everything was done by the books but the Supreme Court said no. What do you suppose doing someone a favor cost that person, both financially and reputation wise.
I doubt that Randy Weaver would saw the extra 1/2" off the shotgun barrel, or that David Koresch would sell questionable sears at gunshows if they had it to do over. When the weight of a Gov agency is brought to bear against someone it is likely that the Gov is going to win.
We can set here and argue until the cows come home but this case alone proves that even if someone thinks they are the following the law they can still be prosecuted.
drover
I'm gonna have to plead the fifth. I figure if your not high at the time of purchase...........who's to know. Plus I never feel more American then after I'm high. I really hate the british redcoats.
Right on ...................Pecker head.
Just an FYI. I just got off the phone with agents at the BATFE office here in Montana. They very clearly told me: "As long as the buyer and seller conduct the purchase and sale in accordance with their own state laws AND the buyer working on my behalf ships it to an FFL so that I have to fill out the paperwork, the transaction is completely legal. I know, I know, everybody has a cousin who knows a guy, blah, blah, blah. I also know that you may have a crusader ATF guy or prosecutor in you local jurisdiction, blah, blah, blah. I guess my recommendation to anybody considering such is to contact your nearest BATFE field office and make the same inquiry to cover your butt in whatever manner makes you comfortable. Heck, an e-mail or letter from your local US Attorney or BATFE agent would be easy enough to get and would provide you with peace of mind. Another good piece of advise is to never fall in love with an inanimate object and always be willing to walk away.
You are wrong the only reason a person demands face to face is the gun is stolen BTW GFY with your total crap.
That might be a reason but it is definitely not the only reason. I have bought several guns face to face (my preference)and they were all legit. Just exchange DL info. Some people are afraid to ship because they have read so much horse crap from people not knowing what they are talking about and giving out misinformation about shipping and all the pitfalls. Some don't want the hassle of messing with it. Some may be afraid to ship because they have heard horror stories of shippers stealing the firearm. Your above statement is way off base.
Jim
Kind of scary how many dumb schidts there are around here.
OP, wish I could help you out. Be patient and watch GB regularly, you'll find one.
You are wrong the only reason a person demands face to face is the gun is stolen BTW GFY with your total crap.
That might be a reason but it is definitely not the only reason. I have bought several guns face to face (my preference)and they were all legit. Just exchange DL info. Some people are afraid to ship because they have read so much horse crap from people not knowing what they are talking about and giving out misinformation about shipping and all the pitfalls. Some don't want the hassle of messing with it. Some may be afraid to ship because they have heard horror stories of shippers stealing the firearm. Your above statement is way off base.
Jim
But he is THEE Bugger! LOL
Kind of scary how many dumb schidts there are around here.
OP, wish I could help you out. Be patient and watch GB regularly, you'll find one.
Truth and good advice all in one post! Amazing stuff here today.
I'll stick with my opinion, and add I think you're acting the fool. Admitting your error to yourself might be a good start to moving forward. Or? You can just continue to play the fool. Your choice.
...... FTF is damned straight up easy and cheap AND private.
You are wrong the only reason a person demands face to face is the gun is stolen BTW GFY with your total crap.
I can’t believe nobody has volunteered to become a felon yet😂
How would you be a felon, if you bought said rifle, then he bought it off you and you shipped from a ffl to his ffl. Explain that one for me. Remember he wants it shipped to his FFL so he's doing a background check.
Exactly! How is this illegal?
People sell guns on this site all the time. As long as the guy who buys it ships it to an FFL in AK, what's the issue? Doesn't even have to be FFL to FFL.
BINGO
Where's bricktop when you need him
how long has it been since we heard from hin? probably not long enough
isn't it illegal to buy a gun for sole purpose of selling it?
Isn’t this what Gunshop’s do?
Gun shops are FFL dealers - hence a very big difference and they do not sign a 4473 under penalty of perjury that they are buying the gun for themselves... Now, the legal way for this transaction to complete is for the out of state buyer to find a FFL dealer either in his state or the seller’s state to make the purchase and do a transfer in state and then the buyer picks up the gun after filling out required paperwork.
I've signed literally dozens of 4473 forms, no where has it ever stated it was illegal for me to resale firearm or I was required to retain possession of firearm for the rest of my life. If I resale firearm though proper channels, ie. a licenced FFL dealer with proper 4473 by the buyer, what laws have been broken specifically?
Interesting case with at least 3 elements to it. (Remember I am not a lawyer)
1). Selling to a person in a Different state - that requires a Far end FFL. ATF rules period.
2). Will the Far end FFL accept shipments from a NON-FFL... Probably not, the law hasn’t changed but the problems that a FFL has when shipping back to out of state without proof of ID if the deal falls through. Most FFL’s have been told to not do this because it’s become an issue that is more frequent, and a somewhat nasty problem.. .so most of them won’t do it.
3). FLL purchase lies on a 4473 is called a Felony, and if you say it’s for someone else it fails immediately ... .. (but here the seller isn’t a FFL).
** BUT non-FFL’s only have to (usually state law / recommendations from ATF) not sell a firearm to someone who can’t legally own one...
The no brainier path is to have a FFL broker the gun and ship it to the other FFL...
IF you can find a FFL in AK that will accept a firearm From a NON_FFL..... maybe it’s ok for a person to do the bounce, but how many parties do you want involved.
IMHO - Recommandation -
Check with AK FFL on accepting from a FFL vs. Non-FFL...
and check with FFL’s in the area where you want to buy the rifle for a FFL who will do the pickup and ship for you... fee based of course.
Interesting case with at least 3 elements to it. (Remember I am not a lawyer)
1). Selling to a person in a Different state - that requires a Far end FFL. ATF rules period.
2). Will the Far end FFL accept shipments from a NON-FFL... Probably not, the law hasn’t changed but the problems that a FFL has when shipping back to out of state without proof of ID if the deal falls through. Most FFL’s have been told to not do this because it’s become an issue that is more frequent, and a somewhat nasty problem.. .so most of them won’t do it.
3). FLL purchase lies on a 4473 is called a Felony, and if you say it’s for someone else it fails immediately ... .. (but here the seller isn’t a FFL).
** BUT non-FFL’s only have to (usually state law / recommendations from ATF) not sell a firearm to someone who can’t legally own one...
The no brainier path is to have a FFL broker the gun and ship it to the other FFL...
IF you can find a FFL in AK that will accept a firearm From a NON_FFL..... maybe it’s ok for a person to do the bounce, but how many parties do you want involved.
IMHO - Recommandation -
Check with AK FFL on accepting from a FFL vs. Non-FFL...
and check with FFL’s in the area where you want to buy the rifle for a FFL who will do the pickup and ship for you... fee based of course.
That’s gotta sting a little, when a Jayhawker is smarter than a bunch of peckerheads
If the owner lights up a reefer during any phase of this, it'll certainly be a dubious transaction.
Aint
This
Funny?
Dont complain about the legal warnings
After
The
Fact
That supreme court decision seems pretty final. I wouldn't do it even if a local BATFE agent said he had no problem with it.
If the owner lights up a reefer during any phase of this, it'll certainly be a (Dooby ous) transaction.
Fixed it for ya
That supreme court decision seems pretty final. I wouldn't do it even if a local BATFE agent said he had no problem with it.
What are you talking about?
The helper guy can simply buy it FTF private party without a 4473 (legal in their state) then ship to AK FFL who transfers to end buyer..
If the original owner was already at an FFL to process (like to sell to the helper guy with 4473) there'd be no need for the helper guy, (hence there would be nobody declaring falsely on a 4473) , it'd simply transfer from original owner to the southern FFL, to AK FFL to end buyer. All perfectly legit, .
What the helper wouldn't do legally, and the ruling refers to, is purchase from a dealer for someone else. Different scenarios. Right?
Aint
This
Funny?
Dont complain about the legal warnings
After
The
Fact
Well, let's also not forget that the OP changed his story again and says he was looking for an FFL member to handle it negating the premise of the entire conversation! LOL
isn't it illegal to buy a gun for sole purpose of selling it?
Isn’t this what Gunshop’s do?
Gun shops are FFL dealers - hence a very big difference and they do not sign a 4473 under penalty of perjury that they are buying the gun for themselves... Now, the legal way for this transaction to complete is for the out of state buyer to find a FFL dealer either in his state or the seller’s state to make the purchase and do a transfer in state and then the buyer picks up the gun after filling out required paperwork.
Uhm NO
I do not see the listing for the other one. If you could provide a link I would greatly appriciate it.
The answer of course is no, the fella picking up this rifle with intent to forward it to AK can't say "yes" to this question. End of deal.
I've done it a few times, then turned around and shipped a rifle to an FFL of a deserving soldier or other person who I felt deserved a nice rifle. It wasn't a lie, I bought the rifle with the sole intent of giving it to someone else. That doesn't change the fact at the time I filled out the 4473 I was the actual transferee/buyer. Then the person I shipped it to became the actual transferee, this time the OP would be the buyer.
Once you are able to rationalize dishonesty there is no limit to what you might accomplish.
Absolutely true. Just look at what the legislators and SCOTUS justices accomplished while rationalizing their dishonesty. "Shall not be infringed" just ain't that hard to understand.
That supreme court decision seems pretty final. I wouldn't do it even if a local BATFE agent said he had no problem with it.
What are you talking about?
The helper guy can simply buy it FTF private party without a 4473 (legal in their state) then ship to AK FFL who transfers to end buyer..
If the original owner was already at an FFL to process (like to sell to the helper guy with 4473) there'd be no need for the helper guy, (hence there would be nobody declaring falsely on a 4473) , it'd simply transfer from original owner to the southern FFL, to AK FFL to end buyer. All perfectly legit, .
What the helper wouldn't do legally, and the ruling refers to, is purchase from a dealer for someone else. Different scenarios. Right?
Absolutely.
Jim
isn't it illegal to buy a gun for sole purpose of selling it?
No.
It is if you plan on making a profit and are not a ffl
ok, riddle me this
When I am traveling for work and out of state can I buy a firearm in another state from a private party without a ffl involved?
ok, riddle me this
When I am traveling for work and out of state can I buy a firearm in another state from a private party without a ffl involved?
Federal law says no.
isn't it illegal to buy a gun for sole purpose of selling it?
No.
It is if you plan on making a profit and are not a ffl
No, actually not. You are able to do this on limited basis, however, not as an ongoing business endeavor.
ok, riddle me this
When I am traveling for work and out of state can I buy a firearm in another state from a private party without a ffl involved?
Federal law says no.
Here we go again
Deadeye59: I'll do it!
Send me the money and include some particulars.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
Why is this in the Classified section?
Having read through all of the drama and misinformation I am at a loss for some of the conclusions folks come to.
To me the OP sounds like a set-up but if it isn't and he really wants a 582 I'll bet if he posted a WTB here someone would have one to sell him or at least point him in the direction to find one that would be easier to obtain. Wonder why he hasn't done that???
drover
Having read through all of the drama and misinformation I am at a loss for some of the conclusions folks come to.
To me the OP sounds like a set-up but if it isn't and he really wants a 582 I'll bet if he posted a WTB here someone would have one to sell him or at least point him in the direction to find one that would be easier to obtain. Wonder why he hasn't done that???
drover
I pointed the OP to a nice 582 at a pawn/gun shop close to me, so no hurdles for them to ship it to the OP's dealer in AK.
You don't suppose a lame ATF agent would get on here and do some trolling do you? Nevermind, stupid thought...LOL
Having read through all of the drama and misinformation I am at a loss for some of the conclusions folks come to.
To me the OP sounds like a set-up but if it isn't and he really wants a 582 I'll bet if he posted a WTB here someone would have one to sell him or at least point him in the direction to find one that would be easier to obtain. Wonder why he hasn't done that???
drover
Well then bump it, stuff falls off the first few pages quickly. Also try an ad on rimfirecentral.com watch for them on gunbroker.com and gunsamerica.com.
drover
I haven't read all this.
Simple solution is to pay the local FFL his fees and $50 profit to buy that rifle from the eller and then sell it to you and ship to your FFL.