Does any body shoot a S&B scope on there hunting rifle ? I really want to try one but I don't know any body that has one. I'm leaning on the S & B or a VX-6 .

Definitely top quality stuff. I was a Schmidt & Bender dealer about a decade ago, and was blown away by their 8x56mm. I think you'll be happy with one of their scopes, but there's nothing magic about them either. Given the money, I'd probably go for a high end Zeiss.

Good to know thanks. I will probably go with a VX-6 just because I like the CDS dials on the Leupolds. The cheapest S & B I can find in Canada is $1500 . We pay way to much for that stuff up here.

We pay waaay too much for S&B down here too. They've gotten totally unreasonable in their pricing. I own a 4-16x50 S&B PM II, but only because I got a smokin' hot deal on it. No way would I pay $3200.00 for that scope, when I could buy a Hensoldt, or 3 Leupold VX6 scopes.

I have several.
And have used them for decades.
What is the application?


dave

I don't want to hijack this but what would be a smoking deal on a PMII 4-16X50? I am trying to set up a long range elk rifle and have a chance to buy one that is like new but have no idea what it would be worth. They look like $3000 or so new online. Over the weekend he offered it to me for $1500 but I just don't know where to start and was actually thinking of offering $1000. I will say this: it looks like one heck of a nice piece of equipment to me. I have a 2.5-10 on .338 and really like it a lot. Sorry for the hijack.

http://www.eurooptic.com/schmidt-bender-4-16x50-pm-ii-riflescope.aspx
and
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3620030#Post3620030

I'd be concerned its hot.
I have a older one and i'd not sell it for that.
We use ours ever year from 100 to 700 yards.
They have very accurate clicks and have held up well for the past 15 or so years.


dave

I have a couple Zeniths and a Klassic. Excellent optics and have been absolutely bullet proof. I wish S&B would come out with a Zenith in 2.5-10x42mm. Or at least a thicker and bolder reticle for their Summit. And it goes without saying, I think their pricing over the past few years has gotten absolutely ridiculous.

Agreed on pricing.
I'd like to see a 3x12x42 Zenith.
But then im stuck in a FFP world...
Seems to me theres a gap in the Zenith line up.
I was under the impression that eventually the Zeniths would replace the Klassic line up.
..But then I waited for 20 years for the eye relief to go from 3.15 to 3.75.....
Wont hold my breath.

dave

I have a 3-12x42mm Klassic. Nice scope, but has narrow FOV at the lowest magnification accompanied with some tunnel vision.

Like you, I prefer FFP for hunting. I'm pretty much enamored with the Zeiss Victory Diavari 2.5-10x42mm for my hunting scope of choice. And Zeiss goes and discontinues them to push their 50mm scopes.

I think hyper prices on Alpha Euros make the VX-6 a real bargain. Glass is almost as good, the scope is not that heavy and like most Leupolds, is pretty sleek, even for a 30mm.

The VX-6 2-12x42 is worth a look. I really like mine.

DF

I seen some shops advertising a VX-6 3-18x44 but on Leupolds web site they don't even advertise that scope. That would be the one I would pic for a 270 win. The price on that one was $1400 cdn.

I haven't seen one of those. How long is it?

DF

I have several - best scope in the buisness!!

I have a 6 x 42 S+B on a M-70 243 that is on loan to a very very good friend of mine. Over the years I use that model on a number of rifles. Very good glass and it just dose what it suppose to do with out any fuss. They are not cheap nor were they ever were in comparison. There is a lot of good glass to be had these days. Buy what you can afford or what is your spending comfort level is. It saddens me that the fixed 4x S+B is no longer made. Now there is a good hunting sight.

yeah that scope is so bright it didnt need a 50mm...

some good thoughts here

a 3-12x42 zenith would be nice. S&B launches new products at a snails pace. THe Summit while nice, has a thin reticle that doesnt allow you to take advantage of the glass. I was told by the head of S&B USA that the 3-12x42 klassik was their best seller her in the hunting line. wonder why they didnt make a similar zenith based on that alone?

although not a FFP, i kinda wish swaro would make a 2-12x42 Z6, the 2-12x50 is nice but i dont like 50mm bells so i have a 1.7-10x42

I paid 2250.00 for mine...the guy needed to move it. I still think that's too high by about 250.00, but, I also knew I'd never run across one for that price in a month of Sundays if I didn't get it.

I bought it. It's got 34mm Badger rings on it and Butler Creek scope covers. It was mounted and shot but not hunted supposedly. The guy had it on a .308. It is heavy but that won't matter the way I am going to use it. I am going to need to order a manual for it.

If you can believe it, Zeiss actually dropped the price on their sporting version of the 6-24x72 by several hundred dollars. I'm probably one of two guys I know that ever bought one, so maybe the price drop is market-driven.

Give the price of the Zeiss 6-24x72, I doubt the lower price is "market driven" since they have no direct competition for that model and $200.00 will make no difference in the number sold. It's kinda like Bentley dropping their price a few thousand dollars. It's still way out of the reach of most buyers and will never become a volume item.

Yeah, me too. I have three of them -- two with #4s and one with a #8. They rock!

To the OP, if you want to get S&B glass, I have a NIB Summit that I listed in the classfieds much below retail. I bought it from an acquaintance who won it at an SCI event. I agree with JB's assessment on the quality of the glass. I tend to prefer FFP reticles, but this is indeed a stellar scope. I've just decided not to do any builds anytime soon.

That must be the ultimate Hubble glass.

DF

I have the Hensoldt 6-24x72, and the image has to be seen to be believed. Was it worth what I paid? To probably 99.9% of sportsmen and shooters in general I'm certain the answer would be a resounding "NO [bleep] WAY!". However, I didn't buy it for them, I bought it for me, and I have no buyer's remorse...none.

I have a Zenith 3-12x50. Spectacular piece of glass, and the #4 reticle is fantastic. Got it cheaper in Canada from wolverine than the american prices as well

Magnumdood,



This reminds me of a Christian song, "Wonderful words, beautiful words of life...." I feel exactly that way about my optics; from the Alpen Wings ED 8X20 on my waist to the Swarovski z5 5-25X52 on my Savage .257 Roy. So no matter how poor these Alpens are they are better than 99.999% of the population without something.

In fact I was hunting the other day with a guy who had some kind of ultra light 6PPC rifle with a 3-9X. He had 8X binos. So did I. He found a deer bedded but could not determine whether it was a buck or doe. I found the deer with my binos and then switched to the "rifle mounted spotting scope" as someone here posted. Turning up the magnification to 25X!, I could see easily it was a doe. He tried but could not hold steady enough to make it out, so I guess he is just fine with a 9X max.

Good for you. It's your money, and if your happy, then it's worth every cent. No one can put a price on your happiness, that is of course unless you're in Las Vegas.

Something to be said for having a spotting scope on top of your rifle.
I know that I had no problems seeing 30 cal bullet holes at 600 yards with my 5-25x56 PMII.
But at the time is was mounted on a 17lb 1000 yard bench gun....
dave

This thing weighs 8 1/2 pounds. When the Weatherby gets back home from Pac-Nor the 5-25X will be moved to it. Its weight will be about 7 1/2 pounds.

I have 5 S&B scopes and they are all superb. Very rugged and well built. The optics stack up with the best as well. I also use Zeiss Diavari and Kahles CS series, but prefer S&B.

I seem to recall that the new VX-6 Leupold that Barsness tested rated an 8 just like the S&B's he's tested.
I've compared both as did the owner of the one we compared to my older M8, 6X42 Leupold. After focusing and refocusing both for almost an hour, neither of us could see a difference. Might be a tiny one to most careful testers, but we could find it.
The VX-6's have had no tracking problems either. E

Thanks Eremicus. I needed that chuckle.

FWIW I had a few each of the "Alpha" glass (Zeiss, Swaro etc) when I moved I sold all of them except the S&B`s and bought 1 more, Im not a great fan of zooms but have 1, the others all being 6x42.

They do everything that they should and nothing less.

To new.
Just shoot them awhile.
They will.

dave

Eremicus,

Like I posted before, when I compared my Bushnell 6500 4 1/2-30X50 with my Nightforce 12-42X56 looking at leaves and twigs on trees about 200 yards away I could not tell any difference. But when I made the line chart with 1/4" lines and spaces there was a major difference. At over 500 yards the Bushnell needed 15 1/2X setting while the Nightforce didn't need to come off of 12X to see the lines and spaces. If just I turned the Bushnell down to 15X I saw a grey rectangle.

What I am saying if you didn't use some kind of eye chart or line chart comparing optics at animals, brush, twigs or leaves leave a lot of information behind. What did you use for your comparisons?

Ringman
Ever run your Nightforce against your Swar?

I used a 5-25 PMII for a whole season of 1000 yard BR.
I switched it out for a 12x42 NSX for no other reason than the S&B has a P3 reticle.It almost covers the crows at 850 yards.
My NSX has the NP-2DD reticle and my score did go up by about 3 overall...
I just had to do alittle to much inventive holding with the Schmidt.
That being said the Schmidt is better optically then the NSX.
Its a hard to put you finger just why.
But when you spend as much time behind them as we do for 1000 yard BR.Pretty easy to see.
dave

My gunsmith has a bit of a hard on for US Optics scopes these days. He is building .260s for 1000 yard shooting. He showed me one of his five rifles with the big US Optics scope on it with the big ranging wheel on top. I never read anything about them, but he sure likes them. I grew up with S&B, Swarovski, and Zeiss being the big three. Now, I hear that March scopes are the best available, and the competitive shooters who can afford them, have them. That and my gunsmith is favoring US Optics, which I never heard of before seeing his.

dave7mm,

All my shooting is casual. Some at the range and some at varmints.



You will not like the answer. On the same day I compared the Nightforce 12-42X56 with the Bushnell 6500 I included a Swarovski z5 5-25X52. Where as the Nightfoce needed 12X to see the individual lines and the Bushenll needed 15 1/2X the Swarovski required 16 1/2X. I purchased all these so it was not like I was against any. I paid the most for the Swaro so was very disappointed. It was better than the Bushnell in low light but not as good as the Nightforce.

I returned if for a full refund. This happened twice more. Swarovski #2 and #3 were not as good as the first one. The forth one is a keeper in that it is about like the first one, except a litle better than the first Swaro in low light. (My gunsmith told me, "A sample of one tells you nothing.) It is about half way between the Bushnell and Nightforce for low light and weighs less than either of the others.

I have never seen a rifle scope at the range that is brighter or clearer than the 6500 during normal day light; except Nightforce. So far I have not had the pleasure of a Schmidt & Bender.

I consider myself a wanabe shooter; except off hand with my scoped .454. (A sitting or maybe sometimes running jack rabbit at 100 yards or closer is dead meat on the first shot!) Therefore I compare spotting scopes, binoculars, range finders and rifle scopes on the same eye chart at the same time. I play with optics and inadvertently annoy folks here who are sophisticated, and others who at least think they are, with my posting fun for me information.

Welcome to the world of optics. There have been many improvements in the resign of optics over the years. CAD, CNC machinery, along with modern lens manufacturing techniques have made optical devices better than ever on average. I say on average because every now and then there will be an old lens that can give a modern run for it's money. Every mass produced item is assembled with parts made to a specific manufacturing tolerance. As a given item is assembled, the tolerances start "stacking up" until the assembly is complete. But no assembly is 100% identical, because the component parts are not 100% identical. More parts means more chance for variance in individual assemblies, optical devices included. In any production run, one/some will be the best and one/some will be the worst when compared to each other, but all may still be with in the the manufacturing tolerance for that item. If you happen to get a scope where everything "just came together right" during assembly, you'll have an outstanding example of that product and in side by side comparison it will out perform the others. A near "perfect" example may even outperform some more expensive designs that are not quite as "perfect" in assembly. This is why some expensive things fail before they should and some cheap things last far longer than their price would indicate they should. It's also why people that buy a lot of one model are often heard to say "this one is better than or not as good as" others I've owned. Nothing is truly perfect or identical. Back in the old days when lenses were ground and assembled by hand, there was a lot of variance from one example to another. Ones that proved to have exceptional performance were held back and saved for the most discriminating customers. I worked for a major Redfield dealer back in the early 1970s. The Redfield 3200 was a hot item among target shooters, and we sold quite a few. We had one really good customer the was into bench rest shooting and would do anything to shoot better. When ever we got a new batch of 3200's in, he would take them all home and spend several days "testing" them. He would then buy the best one or two (regardless of power) out of the lot and bring the rest back. Although we heavily discounted Redfield products he insisted on paying full retail for the testing privilege. He did this batch after batch for several years until his death. So if you get one of those "shining examples" hang on to it until you get a better one. Never assume the next one will be just as good.

timbo762,

Thanks for the short lecture. I actually order video lectures on line. It took me three Bushnell 6500's before I kept the one I have. The two 4200's are not quite as good as the 6500 during the day, but are better in low light. Who would guess it.

Ringman

I knew that you had the Swarovski z5 5-25X52.
But I didnt know you had to go thru all that.
Far as I know there is nothing else even close to your z5 in that power to weight range.Thats the attraction for sure.
Not sure I want to put all the hand stands in, to get there.
Ouch.

Nightforce are heavy.
S&B dammed heavy.
U.S. Optics are stupid.
....a fixed 22x us optics weighs 2.5 pounds.I looked.
I'd actually have to run a lighter barrel on my 17lb. light rifle to make the us optics work...not happening.

I built a 6.5x47 this last summer.In a 17lb light rifle for 1000 yard BR.
The two main rifle scopes you see on the line at Ridgway are
Nightforce.And Sightron.I actually counted the number of Leupolds on the line.For 95 shooters there were 4 loopies.
I picked up a 24x44 Sightron and mounted it on the new 6.5.I turned the scope 90 degrees so the windage knob is in my left hand.Ever so handie to make windage adjustments in a hurry.
The adjustments are off.But there not off very much.The main thing is the Sightron repeats.And it dials up in a straight line.I would not want to muck around with the thing in the dark.But we shoot in the middle of the day.Figure I can get 5 or 6 sightrons for the price of one S&B.say 4 Sightrons for one NSX.
I only got to shoot one match with the sightron.So I have no idea how well it will take the pounding.
ill find out next summer.


dave

I run a 3-12X50 Zenith on my .264 beanfield rifle and a 4X on my .338-06. When game is in the cross hairs I feel like a blessed man. These are outstanding optics.

Terry

TC1,
Kind of a geek out with Ringmans Swarovski experience.
Buying several to get a good one sounds like Leupold engineering ....something to be avoided.
Pig hunting buddie has a 3-12x50 Zenith Flash Dot.
Other one has a 4-16x50 PMII.
I have a collection of 7 of them myself.
Only general rule i've seen is that the bigger objective they have, the better they work in the dark.

dave

We were using .24 and .25 bullet holes at 100 yds.
If you want to split hairs, fine. The scope I had would rate no better than a 7 if compared the very sophisticated way that Barsness tests his scopes. But get even a littler dust on the lens, or have any change in atomosheric conditions at the longer ranges and the results can easily change for the worst.
Then there is the matter of degradation from even the most carefully done cleaning of the lenses. Leupold's VX-6 comes with super hard lense coatings. S&B's don't. E

Eremicus,

Thanks for getting back with me.



I do.

That, of course, is your call. But, again, atomosheric differences and any dust on the lenses can make those differences erratic at best. In time, they all degrade from routine maintence as well.
To me, alot of other characteristics matter more on a hunting rifle. E

Doesn't matter really, cause neither of the scopes you guys are talking about have Rainguard type coatings. Rainguard HD is weather repellent and durable. Best of both worlds, if you're a hunter, that is.

Water repeelant it is. But tough it is not.
I hunt dry climates so it's a moot point to me. E

Rainguard HD is both.

Says who ? If it's so good, how come it isn't widely copied like all the other good ideas in rifle scopes ? E

You mean like Zeiss's Lotu-Tec and Leica's Aqua-Dura ?

Back on subject....to the OP!

I have one S&B

I bought it on recommendation of Johnny B,Dave 7mm,and JWP475.It is the best variable I have ever owned.

Buy one.You will love it.

Someone was selling one here in the classified's, brand new, for $1300 or maybe slightly less.

Mighta seen it...good deal.They are cheaper than kidneys....

Unlike S&B's, you only need one kidney.

True! Kinda like knives!

I said widely copied as in nitrogen purging, duplex style reticles and side focus/parallax adjustments. Not a few very expensive, top quality scopes that hardly anyone buys.
Oh, and where are the tests that prove these coatings are tough ? E

That was mean Bob.........

Bushnell tested these coatings by cleaning them with a pencil eraser and they detected no measurable loss of coating thickness or water repellency.

The fact that Bushnell had patent rights on Rainguard might have had something to do with others trying to copy it.

I don't know if Diamond Coat is as durable as Rainguard HD. Besides, it doesn't repel water so it's irrelevant.

RD when they got done did they try tapping the pencil on the objective?
You know, to see how far off they could move POA?

dave

Yes. The pencil shattered.

Only Leupold can conduct meaningful test.
You should know that by now.


dave

Never seen any test results they've conducted. Only unsubstantiated marketing hype.

Leupold Advertising Guy #1:
We have been informed by management that of the various coatings available from SUCKIE SUCKIE LONG WANG LLC. Our Chinese optical supplier, that managment has picked the most cost effective one and that we,the advertising department,now have to come up with a name for the new coatings.Management wants something new and wants to create a "buzz" around the introduction of our new scope the V what ever bullchit we call it now.

Leupold Advertising Guy #2:
Well ok.How about IRON COAT.You know,Iron Mike Tyson.Tuff as Iron....

Leupold Advertising Guy #1:
Hay thats good, but but we need to emphasize that the coating is really really tuff stuff....

Leupold Advertising Guy #2:
Ok,how about STEEL COAT.Steel is tuffer that iron hows that?

Leupold Advertising Guy #1:
Hay thats better, but but we need to emphasize that the coating is really really really tuff stuff....

Leupold Advertising Guy #2:
Ok,how about DIAMOND COAT II.We put more real Diamonds in diamond coat II than diamond coat I
.Diamonds are tuffer that steel, hows that?

Leupold Advertising Guy #1:
Yep can't get any harder than diamonds.Thats good.I like it.You know,if we spread this around alot, some dumb sumbitch might actually think that we developed it and that it actually has real diamonds in it........





You mean, like that?



dave

dave7mm,

You are creatively cute! I love it.

Late to this thread. Just got back from a hunting trip.

Yes, I have a Schmidt on my hunting rifle and love it. In spite of the fact that it lacks "diamond hard coatings" etc.



Here's a S&B 10X42 PMII with adjustable turrets that you can get for roughly the same as a VX6. About $1800 new and $1500 used. The scope is bombproof, the glass is amazing and the clicks are absolutely repeatable.

Three shot group from my 308.



And another:



Three shot group at 760 meters:



I'm telling you, these scopes will spoil you.

Even Eremicus won't enjoying shooting a Leupold after he gets one.....

I've only seen the PMII 10x42mm available with a P3 Mil-Dot reticle. Anyone know if a different reticle (A4) is available?

Touche'

:::laffin:::

very nice


dave

That is certainly sleeker looking than the Swaro z5. Very nice.

Nice shooting, and great rifle! Have you posted the build specs in the blueprints section? I'd love to hear about the build and who at GAP did it for you.

Eric

Pretty sure the p3 is standard.
Reticle changes from them are more like the cost of a liver.
dave

That's a nice scope!Do they make that in a fixed 6X with the same turrets,etc?

The 10X PMII only comes in 10X with the P3 recticle standard.

I would imagine S&B could change the P3 out if you wanted it changed but it would probably be over $500 to do it. Not only would that be exorbitantly expensive (in my opinion)but completely unneccessary as the mildots give you several advantages (range estimation capability, windage reference, and extra drop capability when you top out your turrets).

Bob, I've never seen a 6X PMII with turrets. I've heard they used to but it was discontinued. But never having seen one, I can't vouch for that.

In my opinion, unless you're hunting thick forest where you can only see 50 yards or so to shoot, a 10X won't hinder you one bit.

BOb..I like your taste!

oldslowdog/Old Guns: Thanks for the info....yeah a 10X would work in the open but in much of my hunting I am in and out of thick vs open stuff.A 6X would suit me better.

I like the scope though; nice and clean looking and not much gizmo....the absence of a power change ring is....uh....refreshing.

So, let me get this right. Bushnell claims to test their so called tough coatings and you buy that w/o question. Yet when Leupold test their stuff, that's just marketing hype. Right ?
How about the US military ? They have a standard for scope coating durability and Leupold's Diamond Coat II easily passes them.
That's one reason why the US Army uses nothing but Leupold rifle scopes. And some of their other optics, like their spotting scopes. Don't recall Bushnell winning any military contracts.
BTW, I noticed that Cabela's new premium euro rifle scope comes with super hard coatings, but not some sort of rain guard. Some of the binocular companies like Leica and Pentax have been offering super hard coatings for some time on their top of the line stuff. Funny they don't offer rain guard tough coatings as well. E

dave7mm & oldslowdog,

Much obliged on the clarification. If S&B offered their PMII 10x42 with a standard hunting reticle I'd likely get one. Unbelievable what they may charge to do a reticle swap...

BobinNH,

S&B does offer a 6x42mm in their Klassic fixed line. Only issue (to me anyways) is the ER is a scant 3.15"

Funny how some get all horned up on this crap, complete waste of time. Pick what works for ya and roll on. There are people that get out in the woods and get results and others that try, but love to talk about/defend what they use but in the end eat their tag year after year. Stuff is not that difficult and the arguing is pointless.

Who cares what the military uses?

Tell me way I need diamond coat ( my older VXIII works fine), as does my Conquest?

Wow . . .

What the military uses (outside SOF) and military contracts won have absolutely NOTHING to do with superior quality.....I can assure you of that!!!

You mean tough.... like, say, a coating of diamonds?

John

FOSt: Yes that is a tad short....(sigh).

Funny, my Summit has oodles of eye relief.(Much like a 3-9 Conquest,which is just great that way)..so the company clearly knows how to do it.....I wonder why they don't?

So I take it you don't think that having rain repellent coatings on a hunting scope is important to the other 10 million + hunters that go afield, besides you that is ?

Did you bother to read my post before you commented on it ? What makes you believe that the coatings on Leica and Pentax products is "super hard" ? Leica doesn't offer Rainguard type coatings ? Really ? Ever hear of AquaDura ? Zeiss doesn't either ? Really ? Ever hear of Lotu-Tec ?




I forgot to congratulate you for having the highest post count of false, misleading and baseless information of any Campfire member who ever posted in the Hunting Optics section for 10 years running.

Also I heard an ad for Trigicon claiming the SEALs, and various other military organizations use them.

false, misleading and baseless information = Lies?

Not sure if he offers up lies on purpose or he just enjoys making himself look like a fool.

quote = Terry Cross

I apologize in advance but I have to rant for a second.

I have always been a huge, huge Leupold advocate. They were always my benchmark for quality, innovation and U.S. workmanship. I own an awful lot of their product and continue to use it regularly.

However. . . . In the last few years, I have seen a change in the way Leupold does business and delivers product to the market. As they have grown, they have embraced many less than admirable traits that seem to define too many parts of American businesses. While their pricing has been steadily increasing at a faster rate than inflation, their quality has dropped. They are still capable of producing a sharp, repeatable optic but not as dependably.

My biggest aggravation with Leupold is the fact that less than 5% of their product line that can be legally stamped "Made in U.S.A." and I'm not even sure that those few are !!! What started out with a few of their Wind River imports has blown into an all out effort to prostitute their name brand for a dollar.

I just received 18 RX-4 range finders, 18 Mk4 10x50 Patrol Binoculars and 18 LR/T 4.5-14x50mm TMR Illum. scopes for a package deal I have to ship. This is pretty much suppossed to be their better gear. Guess what? Range finders "Made In CHINA". Binoculars "Made In China". Scopes have no country of origin marked on the packaging, instructions or product. Call back from Leupold informs me that the scopes are assembled in Oregon but so many of the parts and sub-assemblies are made over-seas (mostly China except for some of their lenses)that they do not qualify for the Made in USA stamp!

I can assure you that sourcing their components and products from China has dropped their costs very, very dramatically while they have continued to raise market prices. You know, honestly, it isn't even the price/profit thing that burns me. It is the fact that they chose to move their sourcing and manufacturing (I do consider "manufacturing" and "assembly" two different beasts in this instance) out of the country and specifically China. Why couldn't they keep most of their production here and just up their pricing 10%? Jesus, I could drop my selling price and triple my profit on freakin Pod-Loc kits if I used components from outside the U.S., but I refuse to go there. Guess that is why I still drive a 10 year old truck.

While they may still have satisfactory product performance and at least attempt innovative ideas occaisionally, I believe that they are straying from their roots, pumping a ton of money into foreign factories and putting yet another hole in the bottom of the lifeboat that retains at least a small fraction of our ability to domestically support our police and military logistics in the event of any serious conflict. I remain firmly convinced that we shall sorely curse the day that we wake up and realize that we need to raise our military to a task only to find out we have cut off our own legs. I aim this statement not only at Leupold but other textile, steel, electronics and molding industries based in the U.S. You don't just start that [bleep] back up inside the U.S. borders overnight.

I will continue to use my original Leupold products but I shall migrate away from giving their company blanket support. I will, instead continue to give more and more support to companies that take risks, accept slightly lower margins and consciously make the effort to strengthen our own economy and workforce. As you purchase your gear or spec out the equipment for your agency bids, please consider more than F.O.V. and click value.

I would seriously love to debate the execs at Leupold in front of their Board about some of this.

DISCLAIMER: I know that some out there will have personal budgets at home that restrict your choices to imports and I totally respect that. A non-US product is better than no product at all in some cases.

DISCLAIMER #2: Yeah, that was more than a second. Sorry.

TC





dave

my z6 1.7-10x42 as a ton of eye relief and a very open eye box.... Very easy to get behind

I couldn't use a 10x for most of my hunting.... But that would be my scope out west


Fixed 10x here?

Isn't it ironic most of the "best" stuff comes from the folks that bombed Pearl Harbor, slaughtered millions and cooked Jews? I guess bygones ARE bygones. Some day, we may look on the Chinese with the same fondness we have for the Japanese and German's.

There is nothing "ironic" about that. These people have a deep sense of pride in producing exceptional quality goods. That has been the case since the late 19th Century. Unlike us they don't ship their strategical manufacturing activities to China.
They make certain that the next generation grows into this sophisticated manufacturing culture.
Don't worry. We'll beat the crap out of them (again) if they become too big to their britches.

Schmidt & Bender Wins $34 Million U.S. Military Scope Contract

There are many quality rivals in the high-end tactical optics market, but it appears that Schmidt & Bender remains �top dog�, at least for the U.S. Special Forces community. Schmidt & Bender, was awarded a $34,209,500 firm-fixed-price contract for precision sniper rifle dayscope, mounting rings, spare parts, repairs and upgrades. The scope will be a special version of S&B�s 5-25x56mm PMII. It�s not clear how many scope units are to be delivered under the contract, which had five bidders. The Naval Surface Warfare Center is the contracting activity (N00164-11-D-JQ31), and the contract is expected to be completed by June 2016. The scopes will be built in Biebertal, Germany.
Schmidt & Bender SOCOM 5-25x56 PMII Dayscope

This is a special military version of the Schmidt & Bender 5-25x56 PMII. It will be provided in two versions, one with click values in centimeters and a Horus reticle, and a second with 1/4 MOA click values and a H2CMR reticle.

[/color]S&B Sniper Rifle Dayscopes to Be Used by Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines
The S&B precision sniper rifle dayscopes will be used by Special Forces for the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps. The precision sniper rifle dayscope consist of several configurations that are required for use on existing and future sniper rifles. The configurations are tailored to the sniper�s training regimen, the weapon system effective range, and the weapon system caliber. The precision sniper rifle dayscope will be used around the world in extreme and adverse conditions including underwater, surf-zone, desert, arctic, jungle and urban environments. One reason S&B PMIIs were selected is this model has passed rigorous immersion testing. The 5-25�56 PM II was certified to show zero leakage after spending 10 hours in sea water at a depth of 25 meters (82 feet).



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Bushnell Wins Military Contract for Compact Elite Spotting Scope

For someone looking for a lightweight, compact, under-$400 spotting scope, we�ve been impressed by the Bushnell Elite 15-45x60mm. This straight-view spotter employs a roof-prism design to achieve high magnification with a short footprint. It is rubber-armored for durability.

Bushnell Elite Spotting Scope

The Elite� 15-45x60mm is just 12.2 inches long and weighs a mere 26.5 ounces. Fogproof, waterproof, and shockproof, the Elite series of spotting scopes (there is also a 20-60x70mm version), also feature Bushnell�s patented Rainguard� lens coating. Field tests have shown that the hydrophobic Rainguard coating really works � condensation from rain, fog or snow forms in much smaller droplets than with standard coatings.

The U.S. military apparently agrees that the 15-35x60mm Elite is a lot of scope for the money. Bushnell Outdoor Products was recently awarded a contract for a special military version of the Elite� 15-45x60mm spotting scopes. The spotting scopes will be used by multi-national forces around the world. Bushnell started shipping the units in late 2008.

Bushnell Elite Spotting Scope

Government buyers were impressed by the performance of the Elite 15-45 in a small, affordable package. The Elite 15-45x60mm is a compact unit that is easy to carry and quickly set up. Bushnell will make some modifications to the spotting scopes to meet military specifications. For more info, visit www.bushnell.com or call 800-423-3537 for consumer inquiries.



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Chantilly, VA �-(AmmoLand.com)- Aimpoint the originator and worldwide leader in electronic red dot sighting technology, has been awarded a new contract from the US Army for supply of up to 565,783 M68 Close Combat Optic rifle sights.

The Aimpoint CompM4s was chosen following an extensive evaluation and competitive trial of available optical sights by the Army s Research & Development Command (ARDEC) at Picatinny Arsenal, NJ.

Aimpoint was the only manufacturer whose product fulfilled the Army s rigorous testing criteria during this evaluation, and is the only manufacturer to be selected as a qualified vendor for this contract.

The sight chosen by the Army, the Aimpoint CompM4s, features a battery compartment positioned near the sight base, which gives the sight a streamlined profile and places the switch and battery in a more protected position. A ruggedized switch knob has been integrated as part of the battery compartment housing and features 7 night vision compatible settings and 9 daylight settings.

The modular QRP2 mount maximizes product application for all M4 Carbines and M16 rifles, and eliminates the need for a separate mounting ring. The electronic components in the CompM4s include the latest ACET diode circuitry, which allows the sight to run continuously for up to 8 years on a single battery, and features an internal voltage regulator that makes it possible to utilize any AA sized battery found worldwide for power. The sight features a 2 minute-of-angle (MOA) dot size, making it perfectly suited for use with Aimpoint s 3X Magnifier (3XMag ), Aimpoint Concealed Engagement Unit (CEU ), and all generations of night vision devices. The CompM4s is designed to function under hard use and extreme environmental conditions.

Aimpoint products are specifically designed to outperform all other alternatives � the troops count on us to be better said Brian Lisankie, President of Aimpoint Inc. Since 1997, Aimpoint has proven itself to be a reliable and trusted supplier to the US Armed Forces, and we are proud to continue our twelve year legacy as the supplier of the M68 Close Combat Optic to the US Army, US Navy, and US Air Force.

Aimpoint is the only manufacturer to be type classified for production of the M68 Close Combat Optic, and has consistently met the Army s stringent requirements for quality control and on-time deliveries. Over 750,000 Aimpoint sights have already been supplied to the US Military. Aimpoint products are used by military customers, law enforcement agencies and sportsmen worldwide.


Seems the Army uses more than just loopie.
dave

E? Comment? Seems Roy has you pegged.

I'll tell you all why you really want a Schmidt and Bender riflescope.

I was hunting in Wyo a month ago and saw a big buck in front of the sun late afternoon. I put my crosshairs on him and a few seconds later he was dead. 7X6 and large spread and body. Even my guide took a pic of him. He was 270 yards away(lasered).

In my scope, as I got on the animal, there was a hint of whiteout due to flare, but not enough to hinder the shot in any way, even though the sun was almost shining directly into the scope. I've shot with other scopes, and I can tell you the whiteout would have been total, and I would have never got the shot. I simply would not have been able to pick out the animal.

That's why you want an Alpha scope, and S&B is among the best.

Good post....this lighting situation is far more difficult to deal with than the standard "fading light" scenarios mentioned by many folks,IME...and I have bumped into it quite a bit in the west particularly.Messing with various scopes, at the range, I have seen it as well and some scopes definately manage the situation far better than others.

Sounds like another case of an unfocused scope issue to me Bob.

RD: Nope. ..seen it quite a few times out west with a rising or setting sun and slopes in deep shadow,against strong background light.

It's a tough condition;the scopes just fade out and you really can't see into the shadow.Plus you lose not only the reticle,but the sigt pic as well.....like the chap says the scope just flares out.

Yep, he left the building after he got called out. That's the beauty of the the Internet, don't need to be accountable. Typical.

Poor E

Always getting picked on.

John

mrmarklin
In that same type of condition the loopie reticle turns pink or gold colored.
....A person we all know claims he never seen that as well.
Sounds like you did fine shooting there guy.
Enjoy.


dave

"veiling glare" is the term you are describing...

it forms as a strong haze over the image that washes it out and takes contrast away....like if you turn the brightness up all the way on a TV or computer monitor

most really good scopes prevent with this with good baffling and painting the edges of glass etc.... it happens in binoculars as well

even a zeiss conquest level scope should handle that pretty easily..

i dont see it in my swarovski but ill be honest i havent seen it from any scope in awhile, any scopes with 300-400 price tag and up at least

My "room" is on the west side of the house. Three scopes in my desk drawer as I type. A few days ago, I tested them on an object about 80-90 yards away as the low sun got really close to said object. (That is about as far as I can see for the trees.)

3-9 Leupold Ultralight AO - no fade or white out.
3X M8 same.
Vintage Weaver 2.5-5 failed as it blanked out.

The UL has a reputation for flare outs on this forum. Mine did not, and it is a good twenty years old. I think it goes back on the .243. Perhaps makers have a better handle on whatever causes this.

I have never had an urge to use S & B. Too expensive for sure. I get along pretty good with less costly scopes. jack

They are expensive.

No argument from me on that. And for lots of folks, especially when shooting at shorter ranges (inside 300), they are hard to justify cost-wise.

However, when you are presented with a longer shot you want to take-especially on game (on the last day of a western hunt for example), the confidence of being able to dial in the range and be absolutely confident of the result is impossible to duplicate.

Don't get me wrong, I've connected on game at longer ranges with other scopes- but not with the absolute certainty that I have with my PMII.

In my view, S&B are not interested in volume, market share, etc like most other scope companies. They will make as many scopes as they can make without sacrificing quality and will raise the price accordingly to control demand.

I have a blue collar job like lots of folks on here and it's not easy to come up with an extra grand for a rifle scope. But in some cases, expensive things are worth the money, and, for me, these things are worth every penny.

My problem with S&B is that they don't make a hunting scope with an elevation turret that can get you past 3.2 mrad (11 MOA). Thats good for about 500 yards/meters which won't cut it. The 10X PMII will fit the bill if you can settle for a fixed 10X but I can't settle.

Im sure the new hi tech Leupold reticles made with "Electra-Form"tm Technology,
has taken care of the problem.........

Go to the PM II scopes; all of them are heavy when compared to other scopes (except Nightforce and US Optics). You can hunt with a tactical scope...really, you can. I have a S&B 4-16x50 PM II that I use for hunting.

Praise the lord that my 6-24X56 zeiss is "good enough" for me.

Don't know why folks have a tough time seeing this happen.I saw it again just yesterday on deer stand with a Leupold variable.....complete "glare out" as I looked into deep shadow with the sun just clearing the tree tops facing east.

I know it isn't a real test but I raised my Swaro 8x30 bins and looked in the same spot.....I could "see" with those.

BBobinNH,



Did you and I graduate from the same optics school? We both compare our optics with our optics; whatever they are.

Will a scope shade work?

Re: the military using S&B and Bushnell, appreciate them using quality products, disappointed a USA mfg did not win, and more importantly the reasons why......

Bobin, not a 6x, but you may know Leupold has an FXII 8x40 AO w/target knobs....duplex, though mines looks a little wide ...

Ringman I guess so! I was in central NH and really had not much else to use at the time.That sun just cleared the tree tops,and ,remembering this thread,it occured to me look over there through the scope.Then I thought i wonder if the bins will cut through that glare.You could still see the effects of the sun, but the Swaro cut through it so I could see.


I have run the same kind of "test" at the range, waiting for barrels to cool,and the Schmidt managed the situation better...why I don't pretend to know.Baffling to reduve glare? better glass? Not sure.

65: Yes I think a sun shade would do the trick....when I held my hand over the objective lense to block the light,the view was fine.

You ever get around too trying that with your Summit Bob.
I'd be interested in your thoughts.

dave

Dave we were posting the same time

Yes I have tried it with the Summit....late afternoon at the range as the sun nears the tree tops puts the 600 yard line in deep shadow....here and there I have played with the Summit and several other scopes, including Zeiss fixed 4X,Kahles 3,5-10x50,Swaro PH,Leupold fixed,VX3,VX II,and a bunch of others.

The S&B,Kahles,and Swaro are fabulous and do cut through the glare,and hard for me to tell them apart.You know the glare is there but can still see pretty good through them.

Kahles glass is very good to my eyes,but so isn't S&B,Zeiss, and Swaro.

The funny thing about the Summit is this.....in good light it looks pretty "ordinary"....but when the conditions change and lighting gets bad,it just continues to get "better" and just won't quit on you.....Don't know how else to describe it.

Pretty good description.
Thats what just about anyone will say after they spend any time with the Schmidt..


dave

You're making me feel guilty bro........grin!

You should!



Looking through yours got me hooked!

And after this fall, I can say I'm truly addicted!

Lets chase some black bears next spring......

Deal!

Anybody use one of these, 8x56?


http://www.opticsplanet.com/schmidt...ixed-power-night-hunting-riflescope.html

No, but I took my PF8x56 Swarovski out for the first time Saturday evening, unbelievable low light performance.

How would you compare it to the FX3/VX3 Leupolds?
Zeiss Conquest?

I have never tested a high dollar scope so any comparison would be useful.


Even if it only gained you 5-10 minutes of shootable light, that would, of course be great.

Sam you will see a difference between the high end Euro's and the typical FX/VX Leupolds. I don't describe this stuff too well,but let's just say some of them let you see with greater detail and resolution,and in some instances well past legal shooting light.I have noticed the recent VX3 Leupolds are pretty darned good however, but still not in a class with the Big 3 Euro's.

Never had a Conquest around at the same time as a S&B but have compared the Conquest sides by side over a full winter with a Swaro PH 2.5-10X vs a 3-9 Conquest. The Zeiss was very good bbut as light got really bad,really after legal shooting light,I could still see back into the trees with greater detail and resolution with the Swaro,and the reticle was still very visible....the Conquest allowed me to "see" but not as well,and the reticle "quit".


All this scope talk on here got me so confused lately I threw up my hands this weekend and bought another 6x36 Leupold....

Thanks Bob.

I was thinking the giant S&B might make a great hayfield and nighttime varmint scope.

Sam I have never tried that but have looked through those Euro's at night a bit.Good suggestion because back here, in winter, we can shoot coyotes at night.

Don't forget the Europeans actually hunt at night,so that has a lot to do with why they design those scopes the way they do....I bet with a snowy background that 8x56 would work really well for that stuff in your country.

Exactly what I am thinking Bob.

Gets dark about 5PM this time of year so it would be pretty handy with a little snow on the ground.


Now I just gotta dig $1500 outta the couch cushions.....grin

I'd hope so; it's one one of the best scopes made!

Sam: Spare change fallin' outta the Levis(?)

I bought my Swaro PH8x56 from member Rifle,(thanks)thinking I would give it a try as a last light food plot optic. I have never owned a large objective fixed scope before.Put it on a Sako L61R,300H&H, overkill for southern whitetail but should avoid tracking in the dark! I am more than impressed w/ the performance. Saturday sundown was at 4:54 CDT,I had a nice 3 yr old 8pt in field (not quiet what I am after,maybe next year) and some hogs came in the field around 5pm. I stayed around and could have taken a shot on the hogs at 5:45 or later at 150yds. The contrast was impressive,though I would not shoot a deer that late. the scope was actually better at that point than my Pentax 10x50 DCF SP binos, I am sure a S&B would perform equally as well.
Our landowner has pretty tight restrictions on inside spread and 8pt or better, so I am hoping the scope will help in judging.

Cruiser that's pretty impressive!

if S&B charged 15 grand for a scope people would still buy it, just like people buy a mercedes or BMW thinking its the most reliable car out there when in fact the opposite is true in most cases. I know this is going to piss some folks off but a rifle scope is a sighting instrument for your rifle, total optical quality should be in your binoculars rather than obsessing about it in your rifle scope. The only advantage to a more expensive scope is tracking and zero repeatability that is at least if that brand of scope is known especially for that, absent of needing that which most people don't I see no need to spend an obscene amount of money on a scope. find the animal and judge the trophy with your binoculars and as long as the glass in your rifle scope is equal to a conquest or elite 4200 all will be well.

+1

dave

Cummins what you say is absolutely true....but for some guys, and where they hunt,the best optics are none too good,and for them worth the chedda.

Sam - an option

http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=WE849440&src=exrbSrch

The trouble with that is binos dont go bang.


dave