Specifically, will the 150 grain 270 caliber hold up at 100yds if started at 3250?

I have a 270WBY that bugholes them and I never aim for bone and normally only use this rifle when longer shots are the norm but you never know…..

Historically I never big game hunt with a hollow point of any brand but times are changing ….

At close range stay off heavy bone. After it gets out there a ways, I have shot shoulders with excellent luck with a 140 6.5 vld. I rarely lose much meat at all with bergers but my starting velocities are always under 2950 fps. Only one way to know for sure and I'd try it using your setup.

probably not ? i used Berger 115 gr. VLD hunter bullets for 2 years in my rifle and my son`s rifle both were 257 Weatherby mags. four nice bucks were shot in 2 years with these Berger bullets , we did kill all 4 bucks but bullets did not stay together. i would say stay under 3,000 FPS and will be ok. i won`t use Berger bullets to hunt with anymore and have switched to now try Hammer bullets on paper this bullet shoots as accurate as Bergers , now the next test will be on a buck whitetail deer ,so we will see ? good luck ,Pete53

You guys are confirming why I hadn’t used them before…..

reread what i posted , not a good bullet on bigger deer

.[/quote]

reread what i posted , not a good bullet on bigger deer[/quote]

Agreed which is the reason I never used them before

your right they suck

Been shooting them in 25-06 and 270 Win for years and never had any issue. As long as you accept they are designed to go in and come apart to transfer energy which limits exit wound. Everything I have shot from 40 yards to a couple hundred has dropped within 40 yards with only one exiting. If you prefer shoulders to anchor they're not for you, if you shoot chest they'll work as designed.

I'll keep using them and I'd for sure try them at least in a rifle like your Weatherby. Its just faster than what my many Berger experiences have been with.

Wrong.

Dayuuum!!!!!!

I know they work but 3250 It made me second guess…

I specifically use that bullet at 3300 fps out of a .270 (on the 404 case) on medium size game from 50 to 600 yards and it has been outstanding on everything I've shot, including shoulder shots. Emphatic kills. I'll soon switch to the 140's as they have a slightly better b.c. and I can drive them at 3420 fps. Very accurate as well.

[/quote] I specifically use that bullet at 3300 fps out of a .270 (on the 404 case) on medium size game from 50 to 600 yards and it has been outstanding on everything I've shot, including shoulder shots. Emphatic kills. I'll soon switch to the 140's as they have a slightly better b.c. and I can drive them at 3420 fps. Very accurate as well.[/quote]

That cinches it….If the situation arises it’s coming along….With Berger’s…

Bergers seem to have lovers and haters as much as optics brands…

Personally I don’t trust them as I have had some bad experiences with them, but others whom I trust their opinion absolutely swear by them.

The one thing I will do is absolutely verify the opening is consistent. I have a pin drill set just for this…

I’ve seen ‘em work more than a couple of times…

Me too, super accurate

I like em. I don't shoot shoulders.

Worst bullet. ELD-x vs Berger VLD hunting?

Have killed a bunch of elk and deer with the 168s out of a 7 Rum from 40 yds to 600 yds. Once the distance gets over 300 I try to catch a little shoulder. I’ve had them pass through elk at 40 yds. YMMV

I've posted this several times before. I tried them in my 7mag running about 3000 at the muzzle. I do realize several proven hunters here that I'd absolutely trust (GregW comes to mind) use/have used them very successfully, I had very "questionable" results personally. This was an avg sized whitetail killed at just over 100 yds (yeah, sometimes shots are closer than you plan for), behind shoulder entry, no shoulder bone.....



Shot about 10 pigs with them, and not one fell over dead.....if I hadn't seen where most of them ran into the plum thickets/shinnery I'd have never found them. No blood trail, nothing, nada. In my neophyte opinion of using "target bullets" to kill stuff, I'd choose a scenar every time, or an ELDM. Several big muley bucks had died the past few years with those, and exemplary bullet performance. Take it FWIW.

Berger bullets are fine in slower velocity cartridges just not a good bullet for me in my 257 Weatherby mag. cartridge with velocity of 3500 - 3700 FPS on bigger whitetail bucks and nice mule deer bucks and yes Berger bullets are accurate.

I`ve only killed three deer with Bergers, all with 7mm bullets. Two from 7 Mags, a 168 grn and a 180 grn, both these bullets came apart inside the animals, as advertized, leaving several exit holes, and DRT, the third with the 7x57 and a 140 grner. Only recovered the 140, which had expanded back to the boat tail. That animal went about 40 yrds. All shots were about 200 yrds.
MD suggest trying a bullet out on at least 6?, animals before coming to any conclusion. A few more to go for me, but so far so good.

Used them in my 7 mag, 28 Nosler, 6.5 saum, and this year my 300 Norma Improved and 6.5x47 Lapua. The only rifle I have not crowding 3200 is the 6.5x47 and all have worked great on game with Berger’s.

Stay out of the shoulders until the bullet has slowed down quite a bit and Berger’s are great.

I have had good results with elite hunters.

Is that the Mashburn RC?

This mirrors my experience with the 6.5mm 140 VLD. 8-10 elk, some mule deer bucks and assorted bear and the like. Quite often an absolute mess resulted if I found them at all. Only had one exit and that was on a non shoulder shot rag bull at 600 yards. I did break the inside shoulder of a big mule deer at 385 yards but he ran a good 100 yards before dying. That wasn’t an issue per se, but not what a lot of people seem to experience. I don’t think I have seen a single critter fold up instantly to a Berger and I start mine at 2880 FPS.

That said, I am out of here in the morning for caribou with 6.5mm 135 Classics at about the same starting velocity. Last year’s bull took 3 of these in the chest at 100 yards before dying but since I have plenty on hand they’re what I am going with.

I do have 400 139 grain Scenars but was busy this summer and didn’t get around to loading them up.

.264 Winchester Magnum, 140 VLD


Bull acted like it was a complete miss. While chambering another, he simply dropped where he stood. No visible entry or exit.

Upon dressing, knitting needle entrance behind the shoulder through both lungs, jacket found against the hide on the off side

Nice. Thanks RC.

Any bulls taken with the Mashburn?

3250 fps

No. Mule deer and a couple of long range feral goats. (850 yards and 1620 yards)

😳


😁

All with the 195 EOL

That’s cool stuff too.

I remember when you put yours together. Bob said watch this RC fella send them Berger’s way out there. It was around that time I think I built my first one.

The Mashburn is easily my most solid long range rifle. Drop data really is dead on as far as you want to shoot with no tweeking past 1000. Never have encountered this with any of my others.

From camp a couple of years ago on a deer hunt in the middle of the day, we got to talking about rifles and such. One of my buddies hadn’t shot at anything really long or had a rifle capable to do so. Across the way was a mountain and about 1/4 of the way up I ranged a good target rock at 1800. My buddy put 5 on it with ease

That’s definitely one of the pluses of a great 7mm. Easy enough for anyone to shoot with the right set up and performance is really high for the recoil received. I’ve never taken mine that far, but half as far has made a few believers in the old silly belted case.

With all the high bc copper bullets availability Badlands, Hammer, Maker etc why even use Berger’s?

after what my poor experience was with Berger bullets on bigger bucks for 2 years , i will now try Hammer bullets ,in the past i used Nosler Partitions and Swift A-Frame bullet both worked great. but when i tried Berger VLD Hunter bullets that`s when i had some problems . the Hammer bullets shoot well as did all the rest i mentioned even the Bergers shoot well , its just i need a better bullet to stay together in my higher velocity cartridge 257 Weatherby mag. , it is fun to load different bullets to see how they preform on game animals. in my tracking rifle a Browning BLR 30-06 if i ever did need to track a wounded animal that rifle is using 180 gr. Nosler Partitions or if i ever draw a black bear tag i will use this 30-06 too. > so the question at the top of this post i agree with > the why reason try copper bullets instead ? i will be using copper bullets too this year and probably many more years in son`s and my deer rifles ? also thinking about ordering some 22 caliber Hammer bullets for my grandson`s rifle a 223 AR-15 for this years deer season.

I have been too chickenshit for years to poke an animal bigger than a deer with them. Every time I get the idea I read about the bullet I wanna use doing wonky stuff so I end up migrating back to what I know.

I have used the Scenar quite a bit and it’s never done anything but good stuff so far. The heavy ELDs are and have worked nice for me as well. I guess it’s good to have choices.

you would be happy with Hammer bullets , matter fact i just ordered some 70 gr 224 Hammer Hunter bullets from Hammer for my grandson`s rifle !

Seems like a lot of folks end up comparing the "new" super bullet against Partitions. Makes me wonder why not use the standard for comparison.

My bud up here used badlands and he has harvested 4 caribou and 2 bull moose in the last 2yrs with them. His moose last year was 950yds I think. All one shot kills..

I’ve heard good things.

You tried them?

I just got home from picking up two boxes and a 5 round sample pack of HSM's. In one of my favorite calibers. 300H&H. These have the 185gr. VLD-Hunting designation on the box.

I've been trying to locate brass that isn't available for what seemed like less than 5.00 a round. If you could even find it. Most was old stock boxes people had on Gunbroker.
Anyway, I called an old hunting buddy and ask if he had any he would part with. He said, "plenty friend how much do you need? "

Well he indeed did have several hundred rounds loaded and brass also. I just bought the HSM's as they are in Hornady brass and that's my preference. 140.00 bucks for 45 loaded rounds.
The bullets look like target bullets to me, and I would not hunt with them unless I had no other option. Thats just me though.

After reading through this thread, I believe I'll just run them through paper and then use the brass to roll my own with 180gr. Speer Grand Slams.

I've got two boxes of HSM 7Mag ammo, 168 VLDH that I'd trade, or sell to someone for a great deal if interested.

I can’t afford that stuff I’m broke..

Because the VLD kills better than monos.

^^^^^^^ This^^^^^^^ The Bergers and JLK's I have used generally result in game dropping in their tracks or running around in a small circle of less than 20 yds.

Well, a follow up on the HSM Trophy Gold ammo. 185gr. VLD-Hunting
I took my 300 H&H (1954 Model 70 26" barrel) to the range today along with a few others.
I changed the scope on the rifle this morning and boresighted it in the yard looking through the bore at a target 85 yards away.
Anyway, I had loaded 18 rounds in 6 round lots of 180 Grand Slams to try to find a load to work with.

Got to the range and set-up. Using the HSM stuff to make sure my zero was good I chronographed 5 shots. 10' from the muzzle.

Shot #1 2897 fps
#2 2914
#3 2783
#4 2808
#5 2850
Dang 2850 fps average with a 131-fps spread. Kinda underwhelmed with that velocity and ES.
I still managed a 15/16" group @ 100 Then moved to 200 and got 1 5/8" there. Accuracy, meh Ok. Not too bad for too much coffee and arthritis in my trigger finger, I guess.
Ok I'm good ,gonna shoot some groups with the Grand Slams I loaded.....Schiitte!! Left them @ home.

Had a new Ruger #1 45-70 with me that I've never shot. Three shots in I realize I can't see the sights and aim. 58 years old and irons are officially a no-go LOL. Putting a Nikon Monarch Gold 1.5x5 on it tomorrow.
Ramble over. FWT.

I run the 150 VLD out of my .270 Wby at 3170 fps. If by hold up you mean expand into a nice mushroom and hold together, they won't. But if you want something to die and die fast, they are superb. Anytime I'm on a high dollar hunt where I want to really anchor animals, they are my go to.

Thanks for the information everyone! All first hand experience is of value.

I had a 7MM WSM built just for the 180 VLD-H. It’s a wonderful long range combination. Not really needed for sub-750 shots IMO.
But, you can shoot a long gun short, not a short gun long 😊

‘Nother sample of one from a few weeks ago:

Grandson loaded 185 Bergers in his .308 and practiced to 500 yards for an alpine bear hunt.

Spotted a large boar at 400 one evening that fed out of sight before he could shoot so he and his partner sneaked closer, trying to spot the bear. In an amoeba shaped clearing suddenly grandson looked left and the bear was staring at him from 15 yards away. Bang, dead bear, recovered bullet weighed 32 grains.

Y’all carry on but that kind of high frangibility ain’t my thing.

The deer I shot last season with a 143 ELDX dropped and never kicked. I think it's a great hunting bullet.
From what you guys are saying, I should prepare the grinder for the shoulders should I choose to use Berger -
that's fine by me. It doesn't cross the 2000 fps mark til about 600 so no problem in my terrain.

Berger really need to keep updating their hunting bullets to get better bc's in some calibers. In .270, the 150 at .518 really needs to be over .600 (the 150 LRAB is .591), the 140 is better at .528 but really needs to be over .600 also. The 170 needs a bc of over .7. In .257 they need a 110 at over .5, the 115 should also be over .5, the 133 grain at .613 is fine. Compare these bc's to what the Super bulldozers get e.g .270 140 at .650 and .257 110 at .570...the Bergers are lagging a bit behind. But I like their accuracy and the way they perform on game, price is reasonable too.

and to be real honest the old Nosler Partitions are still a better bullet to use on game at any speed .

^^ Somedboy had the guts to say it!

These animals were from a couple of years ago:
I will start this with a few observations. All bullets are designed with a use in mind. There is no one size fits all in bullets. I have no problems with other bullets. I have taken Barnes TTSX's and Nosler accubonds to Africa. Both have served me well. This last trip I took Bergers. I usually get extremely good accuracy and good results with them. Bergers are often used in longer range hunting and are designed to expand reliably at lower velocities. If you plan to use them I will strongly suggest that you heed the next observations:
1) Use heavy for caliber bullets. I used 180 grainers in my 7mm SAUM. If you use a faster bigger .28 caliber cartridges then use their 195 grainers. In .30 caliber use the 215 grain hybrid. Easy to load and deadly effective on game. In a .26 caliber use the 140's or 156's. Apply the same to other calibers.
2) Always check the points. Bergers are a hollow point design. Occasionally the point will be "clogged or closed". That bullet, if not opened, will act like a solid and pencil through an animal. A small drill bit should be used to make sure they are all open. If closed then use that one for practice or drill it open.
3) Do not expect reliable expansion at over 3000 fps. You are more likely to get over expansion at higher velocities along with poor penetration. My SAUM runs the 180's at 2900 fps. That is about right. My .30 Nosler runs the 215's at 2990. Works well too. I would not run them at 3200 fps and expect reliable close range expansion.
On to the point of this post. 16 animals of assorted sizes were taken with my SAUM and the 180 gr bullet's. They are as follows:
1) Cape eland cow at 469 yards. Hit slightly further back than wanted. Down and dead quickly.
2)Cape eland bull at 511 yds. Heart shot. Dead in less than 20 yds. Pretty impressive.
3)Springbock at 175-200 yds. Broadside shot slightly back and high. Down in its tracks.
4)Duiker spotlighted at maybe 40 yds quartering to me. High shoulder down in his tracks.
5)Vaal Rhebuck at 313 yds. Hit way back top of back. Spine hit. Down in his tracks.
6) Klipspringer at 269 yds. A little far back and high. Down and done in place.
7)Blesbuck cow at 130 yds? Back a little and a little high. Down immediately with no fuss.
8) Bull Livingston eland. Huge animal. 75 yds. First hit was high shoulder. Sraggered him. Went perhaps 75 yds and He appeared to be staggering when I hit him again up high mid body which put him down.
9)Hartebeest cow at 200 yds. Quartering slightly to me. Hit mid way up behind the shoulder. Went 40-50 yds.
10)2nd Hartebeest cow. Broadside at 80-90 yds. Hit behind shoulder. Went 30 yds or so.
11)Hartebeest bull at 150-170 yds quartering to me. Low shoulder into the heart. Went maybe 60 yds.
12) Bushbuck at 200 yds or a little more. Hit a little high behind the shoulder. Went perhaps 30 yds.
Mikes animals as follows:
1)Waterbuck at 150 yds broadside. Hit behind shoulder. Went about 70 yds.
2)Puku at 80-90 yds perhaps. Quartering hard away. Hit in front of hind quarter lining up on far shoulder. Went about 40 yds.
3)Bushbuck at 120 yds. Broadside. Behind shoulder. Went 25 yds.
4)Lechwe at 230 yds. Behind shoulder half way up. Down in its tracks. Kicked twice.
I will add the following NA animals for additional consideration:
A) 6.5-06 w/ 140 grain bullet. Bighorn ram at 100 yds. Broadside. Hit back too far. Got liver. Went perhaps 100 yds.
B) 180 in the SAUM. Antelope at 130 yds. A little high behind shoulder. Down in his tracks.
C)180 in SAUM Whitetail doe. 75 yds facing me. Down in her tracks.
D) 180 in SAUM WT buck. 300 yds. 1 shot in leg and one mid body. Went perhaps 30 yds.
E) 215 gr in .30 Nosler. Bull moose at just over 100 yds. Quartering to me. In front of shoulder. Went less than 20 yds.
F) 6.5 SS w/ 156 gr. Whitetail buck at 20 yds. Quartering away. High behind shoulder. Down in his tracks.
G) 6.5 w/ 156 gr Pronghorn buck. Broadside. Hit slightly low behind shoulder. Went 25 yds.
H) 6.5 w/ 156 gr. Pronghorn doe at 325 yds. Behind shoulder a touch high. Down in her tracks.
Notice that I needed more than 1 shot on a wt buck that I screwed up on and the Livingston eland that likely didn't need it.
Bruce

I vaguely recall that Berger did not recommend them as a hunting bullet but lots of people wanted to use them because they liked the accuracy.

I used them one time.

Nice bull, and a fine shot! Looks like ideal performance, as well. What was the problem?

No gripes here. I don't reload and buy most of my ammo at the feed store.

Ahh. Well, that was some good shooting. It's more the Indian than the arrow.

Fired my first Berger hunting bullet in anger (.264" 135 Classic) a couple weeks ago and killed a small muley buck at 197 yds out of my 264 WM at around 3100 fps. Downhill angle of around 30 deg. Long story short, it centerpunched a rib about 4" behind shoulder blade, then angled down and blew a 8"-10" zipper in the buck's belly, disemboweling him. It necessitated a second shot.

I too love their accuracy, but its terminal performance, or lack thereof, left me a bit cold.

LOL.

That's what make a hunting discussion forum.

Very much disagree but it's fun to see different opinions.

Keep Bergers under 3200 fps in a very good barrel. My .264 sends the 140s out at 3250fps but has a handlapped very good barrel.

I have no problem smashing elk shoulders at 100 yds. Never ever had a failure to penatrate enough plus some more.

In a bit rougher factory type barrel you might keep them at 3000fps. The thin jacket of the Berger Hunting VLD does not like a lot of barrel damage.

The gain in BC will deliver more impact velocity at range.

Or pick another bullet?

The bullet is hardly ever the real failure point and if you are inside 500yds lots of bullets fill the bill.

But when you don't tear the jacket in the barrel the VLD kills really well.

Not my idea of great bullet performance........7RemMag 168 VLDH, 100 yd impact mature whitetail at 100 yards, behind shoulder entrance wound......To each his own.

>>i like to try new type bullets because yes i am a looney , the old Nosler partition never failed me , Bergers failed me ,but these new Hammer bullets are very accurate and seem to work very well too. and that`s out of a 257 Weatherby mag. at 3700 fps with the 103 gr. bullets 1/2 inch ,3 shot groups at 100 yards and 2- bang flop dead animals so far. > my Ruger #1 is much more accurate with Hammer bullets and Reloader 25 too.

Damn, that’s rough JG. I could see why they aren’t loved by all with that sorta damage.

Zakly my experience with a 7 x 6 bull taken at 617 yards. Bullet was a 180g VLD Hunting started at 3000 fps from a 7WSM. Dirt plant.
At this point, I'd choose the Berger over the ELDx and Scenar -- If a bullet's going to come apart it's nice to find a wad of it in the offside hide. A fast death is much better than an exit hole IMO.

Some hunting partners and I have taken a bunch of big game with Bergers over the past 15 years, and the biggest "problem" I've encountered is that so many handloaders automatically hear "high muzzle velocity" when somebody says "long range bullets."

Bergers have high BCs, so don't need to be driven to warp speed to penetrate and kill well, whether somebody only shoots at "conventional" ranges (let's say 400 or less), or beyond 400. I tend to like 'em around 2800-3000 fps, depending on the bullet and cartridge, but if you're not going to shoot at under 200 or so.

The supposed info about drilling out the hollow-point so they'll expand more reliably doesn't apply, in my experience. Unlike conventional hollow-point hunting bullets, Bergers expand due to the thin "empty" jacket at the front end of the bullet collapsing within 2-3" of the bullet hitting hide. This applies even if you can't stick the tip of a safety pin into the "hollow point." It's also one of the great virtues of the Bergers: Instead of expanding immediately on hitting the animal, as most conventional bullets do, expansion is delayed until the bullet gets inside. This results in LESS meat damage than conventional bullets, and more damage to internal organs--but only IF you understand how they typically expand.

The 168 grain VLD has been really good for my camp mate on deer and pigs inside 350 yards or so when started at 308 Winchester speed.

Well we can add this to the long list of things our experience has differed on. I have seen several onside shoulders like what JG’s pic shows, along with at least two examples of the scapula not being penetrated and a few more where I strongly suspect that was the case but the animal was lost so it never was confirmed. In any event more meat damage has been my experience with bergers, not less.


Burns’ has a solid point that bergers may be barrel sensitive. I fire 6.5mm 140 VLDs and 135 classics at 2880-2900 FPS and have had variable results. Only two have exited for me. One a rag bull elk with no shoulder hit and the other a bull caribou with the offside shoulder absolutely destroyed. What a mess of copper shards and whatever else it makes.

Several more have penetrated into the chest of a critter as advertised, though most all of those critters took 3-4 shots each in the chest to put the animal down which makes it tough to tell which shot did what damage. The only one shot kill I am recalling was a big mule deer whose onside shoulder was absolutely destroyed. He ran 100 yards and piled up with very little internal damage, that I could tell anyhow. I am guessing some copper or bone shards made it to his lungs but that is just a guess. Probably 25 animals in total. I am tempted to retry them in a different barrel and see if they’re more consistent.

After not all that much early experience with Bergers, I started deliberately placing them at least 3-4 inches behind the shoulder. NONE of those resulted in more meat damage than a knitting needle--in fact it was usually hard to find the entrance hole. And they killed far more quickly than conventional "mushrooming" bullets--because they expanded violently INSIDE the chest cavity.

You (and others) still evidently refuse to understand that Bergers work VERY well--as long as they're not used like conventional bullets. Why anybody would use them LIKE conventional bullets, by shooting them into shoulders at shorter ranges, is beyond me. But I will admit that, as noted, it took me a few animals to understand that difference.

If you want to shoot big game in the shoulder at close ranges with high-velocity bullets, then there are better bullets. I've used plenty of those bullets--but fail to grasp why so many Berger critics keep bitching about how they act differently than, say, Nosler Partitions or Barnes TSXs, when all of this has been described in detail a number of times by various people.

yes Mule Deer makes some very good valid point ,but i won`t use Berger bullets from what i seen on our bucks we shot i want our bucks down quickly , reason is where i hunt in a very thick nasty Tamarack swamp that`s always wet we need to kill these bigger bucks quick so a shoulder start is best for us. we like the 257 Weatherby mags. they are accurate ,fast ,not much recoil , and do smack bucks well out to 400 yards with decent ballistics with a 103 gr. bullet going 3700 FPS. if you know what a J-8 Bombadier track machine is i have one in the shed in case things get out of hand back in this big swamp . i also use the J-8 before season to make a few 200 -400 yard lanes so we can see in the swamp along with chain saw work too. wounded bucks in this area is no picnic to find. it works fine us and we do get a few decent bucks once in while and no we don`t shoot small bucks .

Berger's claim that they penetrate a few inches before grenading in my experience is legit...
This is a picture of the backside of an Antelope scapula, you can see the hole at the tip of the knife. This was from a 240 Wby with a 115 vld , muzzle velocity 3150 fps.
Distance shot, approximately 250 yds.
Antelope dropped on the spot... zero ruined meat
I was impressed

Might double check your caliber or bullet….

No need, what I said is accurate .243, Berger 115 gr vld in a 240 Wby. H1000 powder 3150 fps in a 23" barrel

My ignorance….I thought the only 115 was the 257….
👍👍

No worries.... 1/8 twister is your huckleberry...

I have not been shy around here in proclaiming my preference for staying off the shoulder, whether that be humerus or scapula, at any distance or impact speed. I 10x over prefer to hit behind it if I can. I seem to accidentally hit it coming or going plenty though and the times that I have totally missed it with bergers haven’t repeatedly produced those results you mention.

Besides, people like Burns and others who have good luck with Barnes proclaim they consistently exit, often times even when a shoulder bone is hit.

I have bitched about their performance (obviously) but have never been under the illusion that they don’t act differently than partitions, TSXs or the like….that absolutely has been explained here ad nauseam as well as on berger’s site. I just have not seen the results others report, and I am not alone in that.

Too bad about your moose hunt. I was sincerely hoping you’d get one yesterday. I know you waited a while for that opportunity.

Does make you wonder if the barrel interior finish has bearing on Berger results? Maybe a rough barrel has harmed the integrity of the bullet jacket and it expands on the surface rather than penetrating a few inches before expansion?

It has got to be a factor. So many varying experiences needs an explanation. I've never caught any Bergers in any deer or elk, from 30 to 550 yards, and maybe a bit further. I don't know why mine have all exited, and why I've never had them "pop." Have had some hellacious wound channels, though. Have shot mostly 30 cals out of 30-06 and 300 SAUM, but also others in 270, 6mm.

It is thought provoking logic. The main rifle I am talking about performed fine on game with the old 140 AMAXs, but did this with 2 different lots of 147 ELD-Ms.


This also doesn’t explain why in that rifle I get an occasional Berger that breaks bone seemingly fine and acts like a conventional bullet. To add to the randomness, I recovered 2 from last year’s caribou that are (a guess) 40% retained weight, core intact, never hit bone other than maybe a rib and didn’t make it past the first half of the broadside bull. I hit him 3 times in the chest and I still had to cut his throat 5 minutes later though he was comatose. I HATE having to watch critters die like that. All bullets do weird things but it seems like bergers have more of a track record for it, for me at least. Maybe my particular rifle does have something to do with it.

All this confirms what I determined a long time ago.

I do what works for ME…..

3 groove barrel with wide lands?

6 groove, though I have no idea if the lands are “wide” or not.

Lilja 1/8.

Is that good or bad, in this context? I honestly have no clue.

Working up loads for my 26 Nosler, I noticed that Berger data had loads at 3,200 max. I called, talked to a tech, told him I could push 140’s a lot faster than that. He told me they don’t recommend pushing their Hunting VLD any faster, suggested I use their target version with heavier jacket.

I shut down VLD testing in that round, went with tougher bullets.

I had noticed with other rounds that the VLD made the famous pencil hole entrance (actually hard to find) and several exit wounds from frags with chest shot WT’s. It did kill’em pretty quick.

I’ve move on.

DF

I've gathered from comments on this site that three groove barrels with wide lands stress bullet jackets more. I have no personal experience with them .

Thanks Mathman. I will look out for comments such as those in the future.

You ever tried the 139 Scenar?

Might be a good one for you.

If that is in reference to me, I have 400 of the 139 Scenars all from the same lot.

Due to the component shortage though, last year I loaded what I had on hand, which were the 135 bergers. I still have 150 or so loaded, so I plan to use them for the foreseeable future despite my poor experiences with them. Another reason I haven’t loaded the Scenars is that I still can’t find much for powders though admittedly I haven’t looked too much the past few months. That, and I find working up a load, figuring out dope, etc. is a lot of work that I kind of dread. I am wayyyy more of a hunter than a shooter.

Yup. It was directed at you.

Makes sense since you have dope but I couldn’t hardly sleep using a bullet it didn’t trust and had so many bad experiences with.

+1

DF

Solid, solid point. The best I can say is if I could find RL22 or IMR4831 locally I would have been more motivated to get the Scenars up and running this year.

I should also mention I now only use this rifle/bullet combo on caribou and sheep, NOT moose or elk though I did take an incidental griz with it last year. Took 2 shots IIRC and I didn’t find any even though they didn’t exit, however they worked OK in that instance and he only ran 100 yards and piled up. Caribou are the size of smallish cow elk. I keep a few other rifles with set and forget scopes and conventional bullets at my mom’s house in Montana for when I fly down for elk and mule deer. I’ll figure something out to get the Scenars up and running this coming summer because you’re right. Having little confidence in equipment isn’t a good thing.

I guess another ‘excuse’ is that I have found the 135 Classic that I have loaded now to be a bit tougher than the 140 VLD I used up until a few years ago, but admittedly have only taken 4 critters with the 135. Take that for what it is worth.

The barrel very well might have an effect on Berger VLD expansion.

Have used them, or seen them used, in the following rifles/cartridges:

Douglas: .257 Roberts, .264 Winchester Magnum, .30-06.
E.R. Shaw (now just Shaw): 6.5-06
Pre-'64 Model 70 Winchester: .257 Roberts
Lilja: .300 Winchester Magnum


The bullets included the 115 .257, 140 6.5mm, 168 and 185 .308s. Don't know if the barrel on the pre-'64 M70 was original. It was Walt Berger's rifle, and was rebarreled at some point, as he'd had it a long time.

I think it was that 6.5-06 that sent me down the same path of 6.5-06 and 140 vld. It was a great path and I had great success with it.

I’ve killed with Scenars and VLDs and vote for the latter. Of course my 6.5 CM is really hard on bullets 😊

Bergers kill fast. If you want to photograph a used bullet, shoot Barnes 😊

This.

If you might have to break a moose’s hips, shoot another bullet. At 640 yards the bullet speed is close to 2000 fps. Anyone know how a VLD behaves at lower speeds?

I meant my 6.5 C drops to 2000 at 650. Sorry.

At around 1900 fps it looks like this after going through an onside elk shoulder, both lungs and lodging under skin on other side.

Dang! From a 30-338?

140 vld from a 6.5x47. Son's rifle. I have downsized also though.

Educational thanks.