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Originally Posted by Alamosa
Originally Posted by HuntnShoot
Originally Posted by Alamosa
I vaguely recall that Berger did not recommend them as a hunting bullet but lots of people wanted to use them because they liked the accuracy.

I used them one time.
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Nice bull, and a fine shot! Looks like ideal performance, as well. What was the problem?

No gripes here. I don't reload and buy most of my ammo at the feed store.
Ahh. Well, that was some good shooting. It's more the Indian than the arrow.


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Fired my first Berger hunting bullet in anger (.264" 135 Classic) a couple weeks ago and killed a small muley buck at 197 yds out of my 264 WM at around 3100 fps. Downhill angle of around 30 deg. Long story short, it centerpunched a rib about 4" behind shoulder blade, then angled down and blew a 8"-10" zipper in the buck's belly, disemboweling him. It necessitated a second shot.

I too love their accuracy, but its terminal performance, or lack thereof, left me a bit cold.


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Originally Posted by Okanagan
Originally Posted by pete53
and to be real honest the old Nosler Partitions are still a better bullet to use on game at any speed .


^^ Somedboy had the guts to say it! grin

LOL.

That's what make a hunting discussion forum.

Very much disagree but it's fun to see different opinions.

Keep Bergers under 3200 fps in a very good barrel. My .264 sends the 140s out at 3250fps but has a handlapped very good barrel.

I have no problem smashing elk shoulders at 100 yds. Never ever had a failure to penatrate enough plus some more.

In a bit rougher factory type barrel you might keep them at 3000fps. The thin jacket of the Berger Hunting VLD does not like a lot of barrel damage.

The gain in BC will deliver more impact velocity at range.

Or pick another bullet?

The bullet is hardly ever the real failure point and if you are inside 500yds lots of bullets fill the bill.

But when you don't tear the jacket in the barrel the VLD kills really well.


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Not my idea of great bullet performance........7RemMag 168 VLDH, 100 yd impact mature whitetail at 100 yards, behind shoulder entrance wound......To each his own.

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Originally Posted by Okanagan
Originally Posted by pete53
and to be real honest the old Nosler Partitions are still a better bullet to use on game at any speed .


^^ Somedboy had the guts to say it! grin


>>i like to try new type bullets because yes i am a looney , the old Nosler partition never failed me , Bergers failed me ,but these new Hammer bullets are very accurate and seem to work very well too. and that`s out of a 257 Weatherby mag. at 3700 fps with the 103 gr. bullets 1/2 inch ,3 shot groups at 100 yards and 2- bang flop dead animals so far. > my Ruger #1 is much more accurate with Hammer bullets and Reloader 25 too.


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Damn, that’s rough JG. I could see why they aren’t loved by all with that sorta damage.


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Originally Posted by rcamuglia
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by rcamuglia
I’ve seen ‘em work more than a couple of times…



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Is that the Mashburn RC?

.264 Winchester Magnum, 140 VLD


Bull acted like it was a complete miss. While chambering another, he simply dropped where he stood. No visible entry or exit.

Upon dressing, knitting needle entrance behind the shoulder through both lungs, jacket found against the hide on the off side

Zakly my experience with a 7 x 6 bull taken at 617 yards. Bullet was a 180g VLD Hunting started at 3000 fps from a 7WSM. Dirt plant.
At this point, I'd choose the Berger over the ELDx and Scenar -- If a bullet's going to come apart it's nice to find a wad of it in the offside hide. A fast death is much better than an exit hole IMO.


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Some hunting partners and I have taken a bunch of big game with Bergers over the past 15 years, and the biggest "problem" I've encountered is that so many handloaders automatically hear "high muzzle velocity" when somebody says "long range bullets."

Bergers have high BCs, so don't need to be driven to warp speed to penetrate and kill well, whether somebody only shoots at "conventional" ranges (let's say 400 or less), or beyond 400. I tend to like 'em around 2800-3000 fps, depending on the bullet and cartridge, but if you're not going to shoot at under 200 or so.

The supposed info about drilling out the hollow-point so they'll expand more reliably doesn't apply, in my experience. Unlike conventional hollow-point hunting bullets, Bergers expand due to the thin "empty" jacket at the front end of the bullet collapsing within 2-3" of the bullet hitting hide. This applies even if you can't stick the tip of a safety pin into the "hollow point." It's also one of the great virtues of the Bergers: Instead of expanding immediately on hitting the animal, as most conventional bullets do, expansion is delayed until the bullet gets inside. This results in LESS meat damage than conventional bullets, and more damage to internal organs--but only IF you understand how they typically expand.


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The 168 grain VLD has been really good for my camp mate on deer and pigs inside 350 yards or so when started at 308 Winchester speed.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Instead of expanding immediately on hitting the animal, as most conventional bullets do, expansion is delayed until the bullet gets inside. This results in LESS meat damage than conventional bullets, and more damage to internal organs--but only IF you understand how they typically expand.

Well we can add this to the long list of things our experience has differed on. I have seen several onside shoulders like what JG’s pic shows, along with at least two examples of the scapula not being penetrated and a few more where I strongly suspect that was the case but the animal was lost so it never was confirmed. In any event more meat damage has been my experience with bergers, not less.


Burns’ has a solid point that bergers may be barrel sensitive. I fire 6.5mm 140 VLDs and 135 classics at 2880-2900 FPS and have had variable results. Only two have exited for me. One a rag bull elk with no shoulder hit and the other a bull caribou with the offside shoulder absolutely destroyed. What a mess of copper shards and whatever else it makes.

Several more have penetrated into the chest of a critter as advertised, though most all of those critters took 3-4 shots each in the chest to put the animal down which makes it tough to tell which shot did what damage. The only one shot kill I am recalling was a big mule deer whose onside shoulder was absolutely destroyed. He ran 100 yards and piled up with very little internal damage, that I could tell anyhow. I am guessing some copper or bone shards made it to his lungs but that is just a guess. Probably 25 animals in total. I am tempted to retry them in a different barrel and see if they’re more consistent.



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After not all that much early experience with Bergers, I started deliberately placing them at least 3-4 inches behind the shoulder. NONE of those resulted in more meat damage than a knitting needle--in fact it was usually hard to find the entrance hole. And they killed far more quickly than conventional "mushrooming" bullets--because they expanded violently INSIDE the chest cavity.

You (and others) still evidently refuse to understand that Bergers work VERY well--as long as they're not used like conventional bullets. Why anybody would use them LIKE conventional bullets, by shooting them into shoulders at shorter ranges, is beyond me. But I will admit that, as noted, it took me a few animals to understand that difference.

If you want to shoot big game in the shoulder at close ranges with high-velocity bullets, then there are better bullets. I've used plenty of those bullets--but fail to grasp why so many Berger critics keep bitching about how they act differently than, say, Nosler Partitions or Barnes TSXs, when all of this has been described in detail a number of times by various people.


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yes Mule Deer makes some very good valid point ,but i won`t use Berger bullets from what i seen on our bucks we shot i want our bucks down quickly , reason is where i hunt in a very thick nasty Tamarack swamp that`s always wet we need to kill these bigger bucks quick so a shoulder start is best for us. we like the 257 Weatherby mags. they are accurate ,fast ,not much recoil , and do smack bucks well out to 400 yards with decent ballistics with a 103 gr. bullet going 3700 FPS. if you know what a J-8 Bombadier track machine is i have one in the shed in case things get out of hand back in this big swamp . i also use the J-8 before season to make a few 200 -400 yard lanes so we can see in the swamp along with chain saw work too. wounded bucks in this area is no picnic to find. it works fine us and we do get a few decent bucks once in while and no we don`t shoot small bucks .


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Berger's claim that they penetrate a few inches before grenading in my experience is legit...
This is a picture of the backside of an Antelope scapula, you can see the hole at the tip of the knife. This was from a 240 Wby with a 115 vld , muzzle velocity 3150 fps.
Distance shot, approximately 250 yds.
Antelope dropped on the spot... zero ruined meat
I was impressed



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Originally Posted by irfubar
This was from a 240 Wby with a 115 vld , muzzle velocity 3150


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Might double check your caliber or bullet….


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Originally Posted by Daveh
Originally Posted by irfubar
This was from a 240 Wby with a 115 vld , muzzle velocity 3150


[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Might double check your caliber or bullet….

No need, what I said is accurate .243, Berger 115 gr vld in a 240 Wby. H1000 powder 3150 fps in a 23" barrel


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Originally Posted by irfubar
Originally Posted by Daveh
Originally Posted by irfubar
This was from a 240 Wby with a 115 vld , muzzle velocity 3150


[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Might double check your caliber or bullet….

No need, what I said is accurate .243, Berger 115 gr vld in a 240 Wby. H1000 powder 3150 fps in a 23" barrel

My ignorance….I thought the only 115 was the 257….
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Originally Posted by Daveh
Originally Posted by irfubar
Originally Posted by Daveh
Originally Posted by irfubar
This was from a 240 Wby with a 115 vld , muzzle velocity 3150


[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Might double check your caliber or bullet….

No need, what I said is accurate .243, Berger 115 gr vld in a 240 Wby. H1000 powder 3150 fps in a 23" barrel

My ignorance….I thought the only 115 was the 257….
👍👍

No worries.... 1/8 twister is your huckleberry... wink


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
After not all that much early experience with Bergers, I started deliberately placing them at least 3-4 inches behind the shoulder. NONE of those resulted in more meat damage than a knitting needle--in fact it was usually hard to find the entrance hole. And they killed far more quickly than conventional "mushrooming" bullets--because they expanded violently INSIDE the chest cavity.

You (and others) still evidently refuse to understand that Bergers work VERY well--as long as they're not used like conventional bullets. Why anybody would use them LIKE conventional bullets, by shooting them into shoulders at shorter ranges, is beyond me. But I will admit that, as noted, it took me a few animals to understand that difference.

If you want to shoot big game in the shoulder at close ranges with high-velocity bullets, then there are better bullets. I've used plenty of those bullets--but fail to grasp why so many Berger critics keep bitching about how they act differently than, say, Nosler Partitions or Barnes TSXs, when all of this has been described in detail a number of times by various people.

I have not been shy around here in proclaiming my preference for staying off the shoulder, whether that be humerus or scapula, at any distance or impact speed. I 10x over prefer to hit behind it if I can. I seem to accidentally hit it coming or going plenty though and the times that I have totally missed it with bergers haven’t repeatedly produced those results you mention.

Besides, people like Burns and others who have good luck with Barnes proclaim they consistently exit, often times even when a shoulder bone is hit.

I have bitched about their performance (obviously) but have never been under the illusion that they don’t act differently than partitions, TSXs or the like….that absolutely has been explained here ad nauseam as well as on berger’s site. I just have not seen the results others report, and I am not alone in that.

Too bad about your moose hunt. I was sincerely hoping you’d get one yesterday. I know you waited a while for that opportunity.

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Does make you wonder if the barrel interior finish has bearing on Berger results? Maybe a rough barrel has harmed the integrity of the bullet jacket and it expands on the surface rather than penetrating a few inches before expansion?


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Originally Posted by irfubar
Does make you wonder if the barrel interior finish has bearing on Berger results? Maybe a rough barrel has harmed the integrity of the bullet jacket and it expands on the surface rather than penetrating a few inches before expansion?
It has got to be a factor. So many varying experiences needs an explanation. I've never caught any Bergers in any deer or elk, from 30 to 550 yards, and maybe a bit further. I don't know why mine have all exited, and why I've never had them "pop." Have had some hellacious wound channels, though. Have shot mostly 30 cals out of 30-06 and 300 SAUM, but also others in 270, 6mm.


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