Here's the link to the first test:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4769172/1

I now present you with Part Deux

The test was perform exactly like the first one to make the results as comparable as possible. The only difference is I don't have my Winchester anymore so I used my Mauser M38.

I'll keep the latest results seperated for now so it's easier to see. After a couple weeks I'll insert the results in the older test so they are all in weight order. Enjoy!


Sierra 85gr HP
Average Penetration (inches): 9.0
Average Weight Retained (grain): 13.6
Average Weight Retained (%): 16
Average Expansion (inches): 0.476



Barnes 120gr TTSX
Average Penetration (inches): 17.2
Average Weight Retained (grain): 119.2
Average Weight Retained (%): 99.3
Average Expansion (inches): 0.547



Swift 120gr A-Frame
Average Penetration (inches): 15.17
Average Weight Retained (grain): 114.53
Average Weight Retained (%): 95.4
Average Expansion (inches): 0.552



Swift 130gr Scirocco II
Average Penetration (inches): 13.3
Average Weight Retained (grain): 124.7
Average Weight Retained (%): 98.2
Average Expansion (inches): 0.685
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0726.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0727.jpg[/img]

Nosler 140gr Accubond
Average Penetration (inches): 14.17
Average Weight Retained (grain): 89.9
Average Weight Retained (%): 64.2
Average Expansion (inches): 0.621
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0724.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0725.jpg[/img]

Sierra 140gr GameKing
Average Penetration (inches): 13
Average Weight Retained (grain): 64.3
Average Weight Retained (%): 46
Average Expansion (inches): 0.467
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0728.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0729.jpg[/img]

Speer 140gr HotCor
Average Penetration (inches): 13.8
Average Weight Retained (grain): 76.6
Average Weight Retained (%): 54.7
Average Expansion (inches): 0.513
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0730.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0731.jpg[/img]

Berger 140gr VLD Hunting
Average Penetration (inches): 12.17
Average Weight Retained (grain): 50.1
Average Weight Retained (%): 36.4
Average Expansion (inches): 0.576
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0732.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0733.jpg[/img]

Military 142gr FMJ
Average Penetration (inches): 14.3
Average Weight Retained (grain): 134.5
Average Weight Retained (%): 94.7
Average Expansion (inches): 0.338
* One veared off course and exited
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0734.jpg[/img]

Woodleigh 160gr Weldcore
Average Penetration (inches): 12.8
Average Weight Retained (grain): 148.9
Average Weight Retained (%): 93.1
Average Expansion (inches): 0.915
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0735.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0736.jpg[/img]

Cast 174 gr (as dropped)
Average Penetration (inches): 24
Average Weight Retained (grain): 122.7
Average Weight Retained (%): 70.5
Average Expansion (inches): 0.360
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0737.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0738.jpg[/img]

Cast 174 gr (water quenched)
Average Penetration (inches): 24+
Average Weight Retained (grain): 128.8
Average Weight Retained (%): 74
Average Expansion (inches): 0.438
*Under estimated their penetration, only recovered one.
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0739.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0740.jpg[/img]

Very nice, Steve.

Any chance we can get velocities, either at the target or at the muzzle, with these numbers? TIA.

Anybody knows howcome I can't get the pics of the Gameking and down to show up??

Same as the first test. The impact velocity was made to duplicate modern 6.5X55 loads and .260 Rem at 100 yds. Cast bullets were approximately 1500fps.

Approximate impact velocity:
85-100gr.............2850-2900fps
120gr..................2750-2800fps
125gr..................2600-2700fps
129-130gr............2550-2600fps
140gr-142.5gr.......2500-2550fps
156-160gr............2400-2500fps
168gr..................2300-2400fps

thanks steve that helps alot

Awesome Steve.

I'll play some more with the pictures tomorrow. Can't figure out why they won't show up, the codes are the same.

Some forum software minimizes the amount of photos that can be attached to a single post.

Thank you for the effort!

I think the software used to run this forum has (or used to have anyway) a maxiumum of 10 pictures per post.

John

Fixed his pics:

Sierra 140gr GameKing
Average Penetration (inches): 13
Average Weight Retained (grain): 64.3
Average Weight Retained (%): 46
Average Expansion (inches): 0.467



Speer 140gr HotCor
Average Penetration (inches): 13.8
Average Weight Retained (grain): 76.6
Average Weight Retained (%): 54.7
Average Expansion (inches): 0.513



Berger 140gr VLD Hunting
Average Penetration (inches): 12.17
Average Weight Retained (grain): 50.1
Average Weight Retained (%): 36.4
Average Expansion (inches): 0.576



Military 142gr FMJ
Average Penetration (inches): 14.3
Average Weight Retained (grain): 134.5
Average Weight Retained (%): 94.7
Average Expansion (inches): 0.338
* One veared off course and exited
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0734.jpg[/img]

Woodleigh 160gr Weldcore
Average Penetration (inches): 12.8
Average Weight Retained (grain): 148.9
Average Weight Retained (%): 93.1
Average Expansion (inches): 0.915
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0735.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/...t/264%20cal%20bullet%20test/IMG_0736.jpg[/img]

Cast 174 gr (as dropped)
Average Penetration (inches): 24
Average Weight Retained (grain): 122.7
Average Weight Retained (%): 70.5
Average Expansion (inches): 0.360



Cast 174 gr (water quenched)
Average Penetration (inches): 24+
Average Weight Retained (grain): 128.8
Average Weight Retained (%): 74
Average Expansion (inches): 0.438
*Under estimated their penetration, only recovered one.

Steve,

As a new owner of a Swede your timing is perfect! Nice work!

Andy

Punching elk shoulders with that 140 VLD does not look like something I'd want to try...

thanks for taking the time to post this.

A very big +1!

Steve thanks for doing this.

I wonder though...what kind of penetration one might get with a Barnes 130 grain TSX at 3470 fps?

I might have to run that test.

Overpenetration? lol

Thanks for fixing the pics. Must be a limit per post as already mentionned.

Thank you vey much, Steve, I reall appreciate your work.
BBerg

Thank you Steve for all your effort.

It's greatly appreciated.

I'm not a reloader and generally believe that a decent cup and core bullet, used with in a reasonable range, appropriate size for game, pointed at the right place, etc etc, etc... will get the job done...

that said, this was eye-opening. I look forward to one day being a reloader and really appreciate you taking the time to not only do this experiment but lay it out so professionally and straight forward for the ppl here on the fire. Many thanks!

Very timely as I'm picking up my first .264" bored rifle tonight.

Thanks

You hit the limit of 10 per post. BTDT on this forum.

Editied to add - should have reead more - looks like you figured that out.

Thanks for the pics and data.

Shooting the 120gr TTSXs out of my 6.5x55AI. Looks like I chose wisely...

It is something I love to do and have done, a lot.

I copied one of your pics and it seems to post ok for me.

You're the man Steve. FANTASTIC work again.

only one missing is the 100 grain TTSX @ 3000 fps

I know how time consuming and fun these test are.

Thanks Steve.

Jayco

Now I�d like to see the same results for .264 Win Mag velocities at close range�

Approximate impact velocity:
85-100gr.............3400-3650fps
120gr..................3200-3250fps
125gr..................3050-3100fps
129-130gr............3050-3100fps
140gr-142.5gr.......2950-3000fps
156-160gr............2800-2850fps
168gr..................2650-2700fps

I suspect some of the bullets that didn�t fare too well at the 100-yard 6x55 velocities would fare much worse.

Even at my 6.5-06AI velocities, I agree with GregW � the 140g Berger is not one I would choose to use, especially if close range impacts were a possibility � which they almost always are. Extrapolating the results up or down in caliber and adding velocity explains why I choose the bullets I do for my loads:

3200fps = Roberts 100g TTSX
3150fps = Roberts 110g AccuBond
2950fps = Roberts 120g A-Frame
3150fps = 6.5-06AI 130g Scirocco
3350fps = 7mm RM 140g TTSX
3200fps = 7mm RM 140g North Fork
3000fps = .30-06 150g AccuBond
2900fps = .30-06 165g North Fork
2900fps = .30-06 168g TTSX
3200fps = .300WM 168g TTSX
3050fps = .300W 180g North Fork
3050fps = .300W 180g MRX

While I�ve never used newspaper, I have tested close range impacts in clay and water and actual game and even at high velocities the North Fork, MRX, TTSX and A-Frame do well. (Haven�t tested the Scirocco of AccuBond except on game at ranges that don�t come close to �close�.)

YMMV

Thanks for all the work, Steve � good job!

BCSteve,
I really enjoyed this, thanks! Now I want to do this for 338 bullets out of my 338 Fed. I better start collecting newspaper! Did you shoot a couple into each stack of newspaper (maybe the three of each bullet?) attempting to separate aimpoints? I was thinking of tying equal stacks of newspaper together and then placing them in a large bucket. Soak them for a day prior to shooting (draining prior to shooting) and I want to top it off with .5" oak to simulate some bone (open to suggestions for another easily obtainable substance).

Sounds great!

Well, not the ONLY one. But I won't complain! Steve has obviously put a lot of time and resources into doing this and his work is very much appreciated.

I'm still of the opinion that if you want a bullet tested that he doesn't have get a mailing address and send him a sample to test. I can't imagine how expensive it must be to test all the different options out there.

Ideas for part III:
Barnes 100g TTSX
Berger 130g VLD
Nosler 100g Ballistic Tip
Nosler 100g Partition
Nosler 130g Accubond
Hornady 100g SP
Hornady 120g GMX
Hornady 129g Interbond
Hornady 129g SST
Lapua 123g Scenar
Lapua 139g Scenar
Norma 156g Oryx
Remington 120g Core-lokt
Remington 140g Core-lokt
Remington 140g Core-lokt Ultra Bonded
Sierra 100g Varminter
Sierra 120g ProHunter
Speer 140g DeepCurl
Woodleigh 140g

I have some 129g SST's and some 140g Core-lokts I could potentially donate.

i could send a couple 100 TTSX's

Great work Steve!

Steve, outstanding!

Do you have the pics from the Part I? They're no longer showing...

They are in the link I posted on my first post but on the third page I think. I originaly lost the pics on the host site I was using and since their is no "edit" function, I had to repost them further on the thread.

Thanks.

Thank you for sharing. Awesome work!

It looks like the performance of the 120 TTSX and A-frame would be hard to beat.

Awesome work! Thanks for taking the time to do it.


100gr TTSX interests me too.

Always interesting to see these results. I ran 140 bergers on game from antelope bucks and doe, whitetail buck and mountain goat this year. I was completely satisfied with the performance on game and had very little lost meat.

That said, I have some of the 160 Woodleighs shooting great and would like to take a run with those 120 TTSX bullets now that I have seen this.

.............Then when it comes to bone, you under-estimate the VLDs penetrating capability. John Burns has done so many times.

Using a 30 cal 190 VLD from 328 yards fired from my 300 WSM Ruger compact, not only did the VLD penetrate the right shoulder bone of my bull elk, but continued on doing the normal devastating VLD damage with fragments found just below the hide on the opposite side.

The est MV at altitude was about 2820-2850 fps.

Excellent! Thanks for doing this. That 120TTSX is looking like a really good choice.

Barnes 120gr TTSX
Average Penetration (inches): 17.2
Average Weight Retained (grain): 119.2
Average Weight Retained (%): 99.3
Average Expansion (inches): 0.547




What's not to like here? As uniform as they get, and basically the only weight loss is the tip. I'd like to see them launched at about 3300fps and see the results.

Thanks for all the work Steve.

i was surprised the Hornady 129 SP IL (first test) retained way more weight than the 140 accubond? the accubond is bonded and at a heavier weight hsoulda had lower impact velocity

Sako75, only the rear portion of the Accubond is "bonded". The front portion is not and the bullet acts like a partition loosing the front third of the bullet and the rear portion penetrating on.

Thanks for this report,really good work here.

I have never heard of the Accubond being described like that. They are designed to act in a similar fashion as the Partition but I'm pretty sure the whole think is bonded.

A few months back I developed a load for my 264 using the 120 ttsx and 68 gr of Ramshot magnum, it's running at just under 3300, can't wait to try it on an antelope.

I seem to recall JB being the one who mentioned that only the rear half or so of the Accubond is bonded. I may be mistaken though. Perhaps he could chime in.

JB has described it thus on more than one occasion. That's HOW it achieves it's partition-like performance. The unbonded front acts like the front portion of a partition while the bonded rear continues to penetrate.

"The front section of AccuBonds isn't bonded, so it fragments much like the front end of a Partition. This is done deliberately to approximate the terminal performance of a Partition. How much weight is retained depends on the particular bullet; as with Partitions, many of the heavier AB's are designed to retain a higher percentage of weight. But the front end definitely fragments."

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt..._Bullet_weight_Who_downsized#Post4097091

its still weird that a 129 cup and core retained significantly more weight than a 140 bonded

The front portion of the Accubond is not bonded. If I receall someone here sectioned one and found the front part of the core and jacket were easily seperated as oposed to the back. Hopefully I didn't dream this...

Good to know about the Accubond.

I sure appreciate your efforts Steve.

I'm sure glad I use the Barnes products too.

If you ever want to do a 7mm roundup - I'll send you all the bullets you want.

Thanks for taking the time. Good post!

BCSteve,
As a side note, I put the weight, diameter, penetration, etc, of your recovered bullets into a spread sheet. I happened to have it calculate the SD of the recovered bullets and when sorted by that SD, vice the published SD, it very closely matched the penetration results. The only bullets really out of place were the two Partitions. They penetrated better than the recovered SD indicated. May be that they had some small pieces sticking out making the recovered diameter larger than it really was as far as penetration is considered. Sorting by published SD had almost no correlation to penetration. Cool stuff, fun to play with numbers, thanks.

Interesting about your finding regarding penetration vs. SD. Just shows that with modern bullets, construction is more important than SD.

BCSTEVE-

I can send yo ua few 100 grain TTSX's.... would be interested to see results launched with around 3000 fps impact velocity

Why? Seems pretty perfect already.

Yup, that's your problem, just make multiple posts.

Bigger TSXs act the same on real game (35 cal 225gr 35 Whelen) Deer, Elk, Moose



338 Federal Elk, through both shoulders then into dirt bank.

Thank you for all the hard work. Hopefully this will be a sticky.

1. Thanks for all the hard work and sharing with the rest of us...

2. slow and heavy shows some pretty impressive penetration results....

3. the 85 grain HP Sierra will show much deeper penetration if the MV is slowed down more...and more weight retention..

4. the Reason the Sierra Game Kings won't load is that you have probably reached the file size limit with your other pictures..
just start another with a response mode..

Steve, you have a PM.

Interesting. Looks like the A-max faired better than the Berger Hunting VLD.

Seems like you put in a lot of effort and expense, once again thank you. I have 6.5 x 55 and I shoot it a lot. I have come to think that a 120 gr Barnes X is the way to go, if they shoot well enough out of the barrel. There is nothing you could not shoot in North America with that load, maybe the Big Bears, but how many of them are you going to shoot in your life time anyway?

Did the OP test any 130 Accubonds? Maybe I missed it but did see the 140 AB info.

No, 140gr AB only. I can't imagine the results being much different.

Me either, just a tad less to start and end up w/in weight. Thanks! Great info, part 1 and 2.

Yes that and the 100 grain partitions and ballistic tips, which have both worked really well on pigs out f my 260.

Great work with all the testing, thanks

I see in the first test that the plain jane inexpensive 129gr Hornady SP equaled or surpassed the vaunted barnes and nearly equaled the 125gr partition.

I guess my 20yrs of experience with that bullet in my 260 isn't a fluke.

Nice job and thanks. Lots of good info there in both tests.

No 100gr Nosler Ballitic Tip? That would seem to be a popular chioce for varmits and smaller deer.

Thanks, I enjoyed reading the results. If you decide to do any more testing I'd like to see the 100 ttsx, 100 partition ann 100 ballistic tip.

Do some 7mm next!

Accubond = faux Partition

CT Partition Gold was the best. (they never made 'em smaller than .277 tho) I have a small stash of 30 and 33 caliber specimens.

Awesome work BCSteve!

Indeed!


UP!

With a 6.5 Creedmoor almost completed, I'm taking a special interest. Anybody got anything to add?

Details on the rifle?

bearstalker: Rem 700 SA, Timney trigger,Sunny Hill alloy BM,#2 24" Benchmark SS 8 twist, and Echols Shrike Edge.

All the parts are with Alex Sitman (Master Gunstocks) in PA for final assembly and bedding. Not sure about scope and mounts yet but I have a couple of scopes over here to get it cranking....unless I buy something else.

It all looks great, fine and dandy but in the final analysis what does it all mean, truly, as it impacts an animal?

I've seen similar photos of expansion for more years than I can count and they all look remarkably similar.

Frankly I'm not so convinced that the expansion aspect is nothing much more that bullet manufacturers sales spiel to con the buyers.

Energy dump is another pseudo scientific gimmick wherein the manufacturer brags about his bullet being found "just under the hide" on the opposite side. Not my philosophy. If it didn't go all the way out and leave wound channel/exit hole that means to me inadequate energy.

In the final analysis bullet placement is paramount in success and that will be a heart, lungs, spine, head shot and not a gut shot or a rump shot.

Don't get me wrong. I truly admire the study here. It's great and shows a great affection for ballistics. I'm absolutely for it 100%.

Just want to point out that there are other aspects contributing of equal and probably more importance.

Oh I think we all get that. As they say different strokes for different folks.

I for one thought it was a spectacular effort and display. I will give credit, where it's due. As an example; maybe someone is unable to get the Barnes bullet to shoot properly, but wants deep penetration. Now just look at his data, he has already given you a starting point, and options.

Just another thought.

1. FMJ/solids.

2. Archery/bow & arrow, cross bow.

Arrows usually come with steel points or tips of a large variety of different blade configurations. The cunning sales/marketing strategists offer up a whole range of different shapes and sizes.

1. So how does a FMJ perform ? Take a .264 caliber and add 50% - .132 = .369 caliber. If you want a .369 caliber hole just shoot a .375 caliber solid. No expansion, same results.

2. A steel tipped arrow doesn't expand or mushroom. It just slices and cuts and doesn't really do so good on bone. The amount of energy, and velocity, produced by an arrow compared to a bullet is dismally small. 40 yards is about optimum shooting distance.

So where can we go with this dissertation. Basically around in circles. Each separate method of hunting has it's pro's and cons and those are certainly in conflict and contradiction, philosophically, from one concept/method to another.

The archer presumably does it to prove his stealth, cunning and hunting skills. Then what about the hand gun shooter/hunter. He/she/they will equip a powerful large caliber .44 S&W Magnum or .454 Casul or a .45 Colt Ruger Bisley with a scope. Bullet expansion isn't really pertinent.

Is there a point to all of this. Probably not much. There are 9 ways to ski a cat and 99 ways to dispatch wild game.

I don't know how it's possible NOT to pay attention to how bullets perform once they impact.

They are the only thing that ever come in contact with the animal.

My 6.5 Creedmoor should arrive at my FFL today. I have been wondering which bullet to use. I have always been a Nosler man and normally a Partition man. I have never hand loaded the first Barnes. I may very well give them a shot.

I have to say though that I am ignorant about the rings/grooves/cannelure. Do I need to seat to one of them and crimp?

Steve thanks for taking time out to share this with us. I know it took a lot of work. If you tested a Nosler E-Tip 120 I missed it. It would be interesting to see how it compares to the Barnes since they are of similar unleaded construction.

Wow! Great bunch of pictures here.. I have some of the 140 AB, 130 AB and 140 PT from my 264 Win Mag. Can't really see much difference in the 140 AB started much faster.

William_E_Tibbe,



Here's another thought. I don't agree with most of this post.

Couldn't catch the bullet, but this is what a 120 E-Tip (pretty close to the 120 TTSX), leaving the muzzle at 3,450, will do to a hog's heart, a 180 pound sow at 185 yds.

DF

Great picture DF!! I haven't tried anything lighter than 130 in my 264... Yet.

That was out of a 26 Nos. With monometals, light and fast seems to be the ticket. The only reason I'd go with monometal 130's in the 26 Nos would be bigger critters.

But for elk, etc, I'd probably be shooting 168 TTSX's in my .300 WM, not that a 130 TTSX out of the 26 Nos wouldn't bust one.

I guess I'm too old fashioned...

DF

I set up my 264 with 140 AB's at 3180 for elk. He never got to hunt, but I can't see how that would have been bad in anyway for elk. It is a flat shooting load and penetrates very well in my testing. Almost mimics the 300 RUM with 200 AB's with a little less energy of course.

Yeah, that would work.

140 NAB's in the 26 Nos do very well, too.

I just got off on the monometals because they shot so well at hypervel. and I wasn't worried about them blowing up.

DF

Part one in the opening thread...

Bump for some great R&D

Excellent work. A BIG "Thank you".

Confirms what I have been seeing out of my 260 loaded with 140 NABs. They've performed well for me.

Don't have the bullet, it kept going.

Here's the hog, but at 3,450 fps out of a 26 Nosler.

DF

Unfortunately alot of the pics no longer show......but the info is here.

Seems appropriate to bump this up for folks asking about bullet choices in the Creemoor and other 6.5s.

also Part 1....

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4769172/1

Bumped - hoping that you re-upload the images of your tests on a new (https://postimages.org/)? site.




GR