The TTSX's have provided very consistent and effective results for the last few seasons on deer and pigs, and they now are my go to choice for a hunting bullet.

The Shooter's Pro Shop now is selling Nosler E-tip blems for about half the price of TTSX's.

Are the E-tips as good, better, or worse than the TTSX's?

Hard to find any real first hand reports of folks using the E-tip, so thought someone here might have some reports.

Thanks.

I much prefer the E-tip...

Curious as to why?

Bit better BC, better wound channels, just as accurate IME...

YMMV...

Hope that turns out to be the case for me; I bought 300 90gr 6mms.

I've only tried them in one rifle so far, and then I bought about 300 seconds as well. They perform well at high speeds and the 90gr 6mm would be near the top of my list for big-game bullets in that caliber.

I've been using the 180gr blems in my my 300win mag on elk. The two elk I have shot with them died. One was a cow at about 100yds she ran the length of a pickup truck and piled up dead. The other was 300yds off. First shot spined her. Second shot put her out. Both elk were shot through the lungs.

I've got enough on hand that I'll never have to buy another elk bullet.

I've thought about getting the 100gr 25cal that SPS has right now but honestly, I don't need THAT much bullet for my 250 savage for antelope and deer. I keep telling myself I'll use up the Hornaday 100gr interlocks I've got on hand then go back to ballistic tips. If I ever build that 25 wssm though......

I am thinking/hoping they are about the same. Stocked up on a bunch of the .257 x 101 gr jobbers and will find out next season. If anything the E-Tips should foul less since they are cupro-nickle guilded metal but that has not been a problem with the copper TTSX's either. I am also thinking I will not need to change loads at all but have yet to put this to the test. But E-tips are harder so may run up pressure more, will find out soon. 106 degrees today so hard to get motivated to go test loads may have to resort to an indoor range.

What are you running those in tejano?

jeffbird,

Have posted this before, but here goes again:

I started using E-Tips on big game before they ever appeared on the market, in 2007 taking some 180 prototypes to South Africa for testing during a big cull hunt. A hunting partner and I took maybe 10-12 animals with them, from springbok at around 400 to blue wildbeest close up. They worked very well, whether farther off on light game or close up when hitting heavy bone. One of the wildebeest was deliberately shot in the big shoulder joint as it quartered toward me at about 100 yards. The bullet broke the joint and ended up under the hide at the rear of the ribcage, retaining 180 grains--because it actually weighed 182 grain to start with, since Nosler forgot to factor in the 2 grains of the plastic tip.

Since then my hunting partners (including my wife) and I have shot quite a few more animals with E-Tips, from coyotes and pronghorns to zebra and bull elk. The bullets ran from the 90-grain 6mm at about 3375 fps in the .240 Weatherby to 180's in the .300 WSM on big bull elk. Eileen also took a big zebra (about the size of a mature bull elk, with 150 E-Tips in the .308 Winchester, along with a male ostrich, a big warthog, and several other animals.

I can't really say the on-game performance is any different than other tipped monolithics such as the TTSX or Hornady GMX. All three have expanded well and penetrated plenty on game from under 100 pounds to 800 or so. How accurately E-Tips shoot depends on the rifle, but in over 90% of the rifles I've tried them in they've shot very well. If they don't at first, they often respond to deeper seating, just like other monolithics.

While I have not shot nor ever even loaded an Etip, I have killed a couple dozen animals with the TTSX from Coues deer and javelina, to Kudu and Elk. I am a huge TTSX fan, but they do have some draw backs. Their performance greatly improves when impact velocity is high, and bone is contacted, in my experience.

Interesting.... Ive not used the E-tips but Im a huge TTSX fan. I think I know Greg well enough to trust his judgement and definitely his experience.

Add to that what Mule Deer said, and it looks like 6 of one and half a dozen of the other!

Essentially, Nosler designed the E-Tip as a lead-free Ballistic Tip, partly because they also sell a lot of bullets in Europe, where lead-free regs are more common than here. The E-Tip was developed before the Tipped TSX appeared--but they happened to both be announced at the same NRA convention show.

The cavity behind the tip is deeper in the E-Tip (or at least it was when they first appeared), and in my initial tests in various kinds of media they opened up wider, so didn't penetrate quite as deeply as standard TSX's--which were all I had then, since TTSX's weren't available until a few months later. But the difference in penetration wasn't much, at most 10%. And as noted earlier, I really can't tell any difference in on-game performance between E-Tip, TTSX's or Hornady GMX's--and have now seen plenty of animals shot with all three--so tend to pick whichever shoots well in a particular rifle.

indeed.

I shot both in a side by side comparison during a cull hunt in Namibia with my 6x62R Freres, a cartridge of identical performace to the .240 Weatherb.

In the ones I recovered, about the same number of either one, the ETips showed a bigger frontal area, after penetrating a bit less, and producing a slightly wider wound channel.

Differences were small, though, and in no case you could tell any difference in the animal reaction when sooting one or the other.

Agreed. Wish there was better/more reloading data out there for them.

25-06 should be a good one.

I have not shot enough of either to say but am thinking the E-Tips may not shed petals as much as at least the old X bullets did. But I don't think that is necessarily a disadvantage and I have filed a cannelure on the ogive of some Barnes to encourage them to act like the raptor bullet which they do. In fact this works well enough for me to consider getting a cannelure making setup. Or as spell check has it a cannelloni machine.

I think they'd be a good fit in the 25-06 or the 257 weatherby or the 25wssm. Maybe even the 25souper on the low end. I'm sure they'd work just fine in the 250 as well but I just don't see the need in such a mild mannered cartridge.

Calvin,

Use your chronograph with "standard" data.

Hodgdon's .257 Weatherby data lists 78.0 grains of H1000 as maximum with Speer 100-grain boattails, for 3575. I worked up to 3550 fps with 100-grain E-Tips in my rifle, but the charge was only 76.0 grains. Accuracy and brass life are excellent.

Haven't shot the GMX, but in my 26 Nosler, I can't tell any difference between 120 gr. E-Tips and 120 gr. TTSX. They shoot same POI, the same speed with identical loads, both half MOA. Terminal performance on deer and hogs is indistinguishable.

DF

I much prefer the Etips performance on lower velocity impacts....My wife has killed 2 elk and 2 deer in her 7-08 the past 2 years shooting the 140 Etip at a very pedestrian 2675 MV. All her kills were over 300 yards and I was very, very impressed at the wound channels and critter reaction with an impact under 2200...

All died within 30 yards with massive blood loss...

I'll just say I've not experienced the same results with Barnes...

Thanks for that info, Greg.

Interesting.

DF

She shot a coues deer in it's bed at 340 or something like that 2 years ago with the Etip. That deer just rolled over and kicked.

She had a freaking javelina double lunged at 80 yards with a 80 TTSX from her .243 at 3450 MV run 250 yards. That SOB didn't bleed until 10 feet from where I found him with an exit...Luckily I saw the direction he ran or I may not have found him in the cholla forests. This kinda stuff has happened a lot for me with TTSX.

Screw that crap.

That's interesting. I have not used E-tips or the GMX's but have had excellent results using the TTSX's but while penetration has always been excellent I will admit to a some times nagging doubt about very narrow wound channels especially at longer ranges. This is with the 140- and 150-gr 7mm TTSX's started at 3150 fps and 3000 fps respectively.

Does anyone have info on GMX vs. E-Tips...

I've always shot monos at high speed, use other type bullets in slower rounds.

Greg's observations have me thinking...

DF

Guys, I'm just reporting what I've seen personally. Go shoot some stuff and report back....

Ali shot a cow elk last year. At the shot the cow jumped out of sight. No impact heard. 390 something yards. She's real honest. I asked her if the shot was good. She said it was. I said ok.

I trudged through the snow to go check the area out. She's munching snacks....

I walk up to this cow stone dead about 5 leaps from shot sight having leaked like a seive. Exit, great wound channel, double lung....

It was a long day...

Had a similar experience with that same bullet on a whitetail at 75 yards.

There wan't a blood trail on the WT doe posted earlier. I knew which way she ran and we found her several hours later way in the woods. If she did bleed, we didn't find it; blood drops can be hard to find at night.

Not much fun, flashlights in the dark woods, looking for a deer. DRT is mo better...

OTOH, during primitive weapon season a few years back, I chest shot a doe with my .45-70, 250 gr. TSX at 2,550 FPS over max dose of Vihtavuori n-120. Now that bullet looks like an ashtray, blew a hole thru that deer. There was a fire hose type blood trail for 20 yds. or so, even some lung tissue on the ground.

DF

Periodically I see these threads and people pee down their leg about poor performance of this bullet or that one. With the Barnes, I have a sample base of right on 100 killed animals in calibers from .223 to 50 Muzzle loader and I have yet to see the first questionable wound. I did see a few deer not bleed a trackable quantity of blood, something that a person has to expect once in a while when you blow up the heart or take out the vessels above the heart. But... Those deer just do not go very far. ZERO lost deer. Out of A few dozen deer I killed, more than 1/3 tttand maybe 40% dropped where they stood. Some by design, some just because. I think 70 yards was the longest run, and that was from a deer with it's heart completely destroyed and no functioning lung tissue since the upper lungs were completely destroyed. The difference I see killing deer with monos vs cup and core is from either the cup and core coming undone or being deflected after impact. I have seen no difference between Barnes, E-Tips and GMXs. I have seen no difference between Barnes Xs, TSXs and TTSXs. And, while we are at it, I have seen no definitive signs from the deer as they depart that I can say tells me the deer was hit well or not hit at all. Missed deer can and do run away without flagging and deer that make it 30-50 yards have flagged right up until they ht the ground. I have spent more that two hours searching for blood without finding a single drop all the while having zero doubt that Bambi was dead somewhere nearby.

There is a very great deal of difference between the people standing behind the rifle. The is an equally large difference between the people behind the deer after the shot. IMO, that's a whole lot more significant than any difference between bullets as long as the bullet is even marginally adequate to the job at hand.

I hear you and your confidence about how you go about your business. Let me tell you that you ain't the only one to kill stuff nor be half educated about bullets or killing [bleep]....

You can yap all you want about your bullet. You shouldn't be so committed. It ain't worth it. I'm here to tell you that bullets and game performance of said bullets are a fickle bitch...

There's no poor performance of the TTSX, there's just better. Don't post [bleep] about how many more deer you've killed. There's always folks who scoff at it, including me...

You damn Barnes folks sure are sensitive. It's kind of funny....

we don't live in the 1970s or even 80s anymore.i agree with almost all I read.all these bullets and bullets manufactured today are damn good and solid performers for there intended design and use.i will agree that the barnes do hold together a little longer and can leave a smaller wound channel and exit especially at distance.i personally don't use them for deer hunting or thin skinned game that size or smaller.but they are a great bullet and for heavy big boned animals they are as good as any.just my opinion in this.i also wont use nosler partitions but many like and use them and for many years.to each there own.

All guns don't like Partitions. I do use Partitions in the guns that like them.

DF

Dude! Your slippies are getting full of piss. I have been loading all manner of bullets since '56. I have used most of what is available, and the Monos are the best I have ever had available.

Ive not experienced good blood trails with Barnes, but I put that down to stunt shooting with centerfire .22s...I haven't experienced good blood trails with ANY bullet in the .22s

That all being said the longest trail Ive had in score of kills with the little Barnes was 50 yards. Im sure the E-tips would provide about the same performance, but again I haven't tried them because Im so satisfied with the Barnes. ( A real stretch for me cause Im always fooling with something new....)

I've had mixed results with Barnes as well. Haven't tried E Tips but will one of these days.

These discussions are always funny. The topic of Barnes bullets seems to bring the zealots out of the woodwork, on both sides of the debate. I think the reason for that is because opinions vary widely, and many people (though certainly not all) jump to conclusions without having adequate data. I have no dog in this fight, but I like to add my observations as a data point because I've witnessed a fair number of animals shot with Barnes bullets. I think between my own hunting and guiding others, the count is somewhere around 138 last I checked, ranging from pronghorn, BH sheep, moose, elk, WT, MD, bear, etc. My experience is similar to that of MILES58, in that all animals went down after the shot within typical distances. The farthest runner, a sample of one, went 200 yards after I personally made a bad shot and clipped the upper rear of one lung with a 100gr TSX from the .25-06. Shot distance was 115 yards. I had no problem finding that deer, though, because the blood trail was substantial, so tracking through the dense deciduous forest was easy. Aside from that one deer, the farthest any animal ran after being shot was right around 100 yards, which was only a couple of animals, and none were lost. The vast majority ran 50 yards or less with good hits, and most of those dropped where they stood because of high shoulder shots. There were a few cases where the blood trail was minimal, but the animal wasn't far away in each case, so was found with relative ease.

Unlike MILES, I have seen some difference in the terminal performance between the X/TSX and the TTSX, however, in that the TTSX seems to expand more violently and leave larger wound channels. IMO mono bullets are best used at close to medium range from high-velocity chamberings, where one expects the possibility of shooting with the animal at a difficult angle, and where penetration and bone-breaking bullet integrity may be valuable. I've not witnessed more than a couple of kills with the GMX or E-Tip, so can't comment much there, other than to say that so far I haven't seen any real difference between the way they work and the way the TTSX works.

Thanks for those thoughts, Jordan. I appreciate you sharing your experience and observations.

I've long been interested in velocity as a function of terminal performance with different type bullets. Ingwe's observation of little or no blood trail, stunt shooting small caliber Barnes, compared to my post of the "fire hose" blood trail from the Barnes 250 gr. .45-70, chest shot WT. Barnes all the way, size does matter, results differ.

I've read accounts of old timers, hunting big game in Africa, using big bullets at moderate velocity, generally in the 2,200-2,400 fps range. Those were and are very lethal but manageable loads. Cranking the speed may not always produce the anticipated result.

Monos seem to perform best, pushed hard, but a recent thread was questioning that. www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/12160469

One poster said monos can't be moving too fast. Maybe, manbe not.

How did the old classics, Swede, 7x57, '06, etc. become so famous? They were (are) quite effective killers of BG, have been for years, will continue to be. They have time honored ballistic balance, bullets/velocity.

OK, OK, what's the bottom line here. There are many variables in this business: game being hunted, skill of the shooter, POI, range, bullet design, velocity and how all those factors intermesh. Some conclusions can be made, but I don't think there IS a final definitive statement covering all contengencies. If it was that simple, we Loonies wouldn't have anything to argue about, anything to wake us up at night to ponder...

IMO.

DF

That little 25 cal 100 gr TTSX at 3250 wont leave you lacking, guessing, OR looking very hard for your hit critters.

And dang sure doesn't me at 3550.

Gunner, I know you're a mono loving shoulder punching, bone crunching kinda guy...

What's your take on the .257 Wby post (linked above) and the question that OP asked.

My experience with the .240 Wby, 80 gr. TTSX at 3,600 fps came to mind. I know, that's just a sample of one, but was enough of a deal that I now use 100 gr. NPT's in the .240. The fact that it shoots them so well helped with that decision, but the 80 gr. TTSX was almost as accurate.

And, the 100 gr. TTSX out of the .257R at 3,250 fps seemed to perform better. Again, not a number of examples to make a valid conclusion, just a curiosity.

Your thoughts.

DF

I generally push all monos fast. I have shot enough deer with fast monos at 25 feet or less to know that they work just fine at very high impact speeds. When I start with a new mono or one that I have questions about, I normally will seek to define a lower limit of acceptable performance. I use water jugs and look for the speed at which full expansion stops. It's not a correlation to what happens on game, but it is a good start. The Barnes bullets with the huge hollow points do pretty much what you'd expect. The 125 grain .357 will work nicely down below 900 FPS, 38 caliber range. 30-30 150 TSXs will fully expand down to 1100 fps, likewise with muzzle loader bullets. I have not seen a Barnes fragment. I have seen shed petals. The .25-06 100 grain at as high as 3450 is perfect. The 80 grain 25 caliber at 3650 holds together. 130 grain TSX and TTSX out of a 300 win mag at 3480 holds together.

What I have seen of Monos and bone in deer leads me to believe that up around 3000 FPS and faster, there doesn't seem to be much difference between bone and soft tissue. I have only seen one instance of proof of a shed petal with a mono, a 300 win mag hit at 25 ft

How are monos punching shoulders or other heavy bones with regard to meat loss? Seems like either mono or other type bullets, the bone fragments would tend to bloodshot the meat. I've never used a mono before.

My limited experience with the TTSX on direct shoulder shots is that very little ruined meat resulted. Way less than would have been the case with a cup and core bullet IMO. All three of my shoulder shots were on full size bull moose.

Two of those three were drop on the spot dead and the third was able to walk about 50 yds before dropping. Two of the three bullets were found while skinning and had perfect Barnes expansion. The third also did not exit, but must have been left behind in the carcass or gut pile. I'm hoping to find it this fall when I get back there.

I have most definitely seen differences on critters with Barnes X vs TSX's and TTSX's.................

Casey

Less bloodshot than if the bullet were a C&C, but there can still be some bloodshot meat if the bullet hits fast enough and impacts heavy bone.

I'm about in the same camp DF, a sample of maybe 15-18 deer and pigs with my old Montana 257 Roberts firing the 100 gr TTSX at 3250 and the 25-06 AI firing the same bullet at 3550, to me, at least what I've seen in the woods, 25 cal and up with a lot of speed gives better blood trails than the 22 and 24 cal monos, that being said, I bought a lot of 24 cal 85 gr TSX's here, loaded a bunch up and gave em to my uncles to shoot in their 243's and 6mm's, I've went with them [all in their mid to late 70's now] to retrieve deer they hit, I had no trouble at all tracking the deer in the brown Arkansas fall leaves.

If they didn't drop to the shot, I never remember any going farther than 40-50 yards, all this being said draws me to the real conundrum which is my 358 Winchester firing the 200 gr TSX and TTSX's at a lowly 2700 fps, that bastard drops deer more consistently than ANYTHING I've ever hit them with, I've probably shot 30 deer with that load, none went any further than a 10 yard death sprint with most simply dropping.

I do shoot both or at least one shoulder with the lungs being trashed in the process, and like many have posted above, a handful of shoulder fajita meat is a small price to pay for a quick killed animal, the partitions in your 240 will be extremely quick killers, at that speed they've got to be about like a cup and core, at least in the 40% of their overall weight they shed very quickly at 3500+ fps.

I do think the e-tips may develop a bit more pressure, no relief grooves, but harder [slicker] alloy composition, like any, if they'll shoot good, they should be an excellent hunting bullet, with better BC's too boot in comparable weight TSX/TTSX.

I've shot all manner of game with partitions, a-frames and my old favorite, heavy for caliber Woodleighs along with the monos, we are truly blessed to have so many good hunting bullets to choose from today, we aught to pool our checkbooks, try to buy the rights and start production of the old Bitterroot Bonded Cores.

I've been a Hornady Interlock fan for years and a Nosler partition fan too. Before that - Remington CL's. I've always liked bullets plodding along at 2700-2900 fps and heavy for the caliber too.

This year, I'm trying 130 gr E-tips out of (dare I say) 270. First on Whitetail and depending on performance, perhaps elk after that. For an old fart that has had solid luck with Hornady and Noslers... But I'm loading for my son and his is a 270, our rifles will be using the same loads. He doesn't shoot rifles daily, so using a girly rifle like a 270 with 130 grain bullets it is.

The E-tips will perform well enough for you on deer..on elk is where they will come into their own...

C&C bullets are as good or better than they've ever been and they've killed a bunch of critters over the centuries.

There is a need for harder, premium bullets, just not for everything. For WT's, the South Carolina study showed that deer hit with soft C&C type bullets run around half the distance than those hit with harder premium bullets.

For harder bullets, E-Tip/TTSX/GMX are excellent.

Here is a hybrid of sorts, lead front, mono rear, from Federal. If they shoot as good as they look, they could get interesting. I have a box of 160's to try in my 8 twist/Brux/7RM.

www.midwayusa.com/s?userSearchQuery=fed+premium+trophy+bonded+bullets&userItemsPerPage=48

DF

A few comments on this thread so far:

Have seen Tipped Trophy Bondeds used on mule deer and elk, and they act very much like North Forks--which is understandable, since NF's are also solid-shank withe a small lead core in the tip. The performance of both has been deep penetration, though both Trophy Bondeds (whether tipped or not) and North Forks tends to end up under the hide more than monolithics, I suspect because the rounded mushroom, due to the bonded lead, doesn't cut through hide like petals. The tip doesn't provide any magic, other than a little higher BC.

Have seen a BUNCH of Barnes TSX's used on big game in both North America and Africa, and have seen a few things some of their most enthusiastic fans haven't--which tends to happen if you see a large enough sample. Have seen one TTSX enter behind a mule deer's shoulder at 100 yards, a 100-grain started at around 3150 fps, create as much bloodshot meat as any cup-and-core I've ever witnessed, and seen X's of various sorts also shred plenty of meat on shoulder-bone shots. But in general they do ruin less meat than bullets that lose more weight, though on average they also don't cause as much interior trauma, for the same reason.

Between 2000 and 2010 I went on a bunch of cull hunts in various parts of the world, in part to learn more about how bullets work on big game. There were always other people involved, usually shooting different cartridges, which increases the number of observed examples considerably. During that period, along with other information I recorded as closely as possible how far animals traveled before falling after a solid chest hit, whether or not heavier bone was involved. The bullets that resulted in the longest average death runs were monolithics, while the shortest runs resulted from bullets that fragmented more, in particular Bergers. In all those hunts some monolithics did fail to expand, in particular TSX's in calibers from 6mm to .30, I suspect because there's just enough recoil for the relatively small hole of the hollow-point to close at least partially due to battering on the front of the typical bolt-action magazine. Never saw it with .22-caliber TSX's, perhaps because there's not enough recoil to batter the tip much, and never saw it with TSX's larger than .30 caliber, probably because the hole is a lot larger.

It may also have to do with a particular production run of bullets; one batch of 100-grain .25 TSX's resulted in two non-expansions, one with a .257 Weatherby Magnum. Haven't yet seen a TTSX not expand. Have also seen Barnes X-Bullets of all kinds lose anything from one to ALL petals, but despite the theories of some hunters that losing any petals is a partial failure, I haven't see it affect killing power at all--probably because they tend to lose petals when hitting bone, whether shoulder or spine. When hitting heavy bone the front end also tends to bulge, resulting in a larger, flat frontal area, which seems to work just as well as 4 intact petals. Or at least the animals all died much like they do when all petals remain intact.

Interestingly, I also never saw a Berger fail to penetrate the chest cavity of any animal up to around 450-500 pounds (the largest I've seen taken with them) if the bullet hit anywhere from the diaphragm forward. They certainly don't penetrate deeply, but they penetrate sufficiently if the bullet's put in the right place. They also penetrate well through fairly heavy bone. One hunt involved culling feral goats, and not only did the Bergers penetrate shoulders on 200-pound billies, I could NOT get them to fail even when deliberately shooting the shoulder joint of big, dead goats at a few feet. They still went through the bone and into the chest, and the "delayed expansion" was basically the same as when hitting ribs.That said, I would not try to shoot through the shoulder joint of a big elk with a typical Berger, though probably some of the bigger ones would work, especially at longer ranges. The average distance animals went after a chest hit was under 20 yards--for those that moved at all. Saw a higher percentage of instant drops with rib shots when using Bergers than any other bullet, including Ballistic Tips, SST's, etc. Death-runs with monos averaged around 50 yards, and they also resulted in the smallest percentage of instant drops from pure rib shots, not involving any shoulder bone. All other bullets performed somewhere in between those two extremes.

As a more general comment, I haven't run into a big game bullet yet that won't perform well if used within the parameters of its structure, the reason I don't get all wound up about THE BEST big game bullet. Part of my job is to evaluate how shooting equipment works, the reason I still use a bunch of different big game bullets for my own hunting, exactly which depending on the cartridge, muzzle velocity and the game hunted. In the past decade my own big game has been taken with Barnes TTSX's; Berger Hunting VLD's, Cutting Edge Raptors; Hornady GMX's, Interbonds and Interlocks;Norma Oryxes; Nosler AccuBonds, Ballistic Tips, E-Tips and Partitions;North Forks; Sierras; Swift Sciroccos; and Tipped Trophy Bondeds. Oh, and whatver's in Federal blue box factories, along with Remington Core-Lokt and Winchester Point Soft Point/Power Point factory loads. The 22 cartridges used ranged from the .22-250 to .416 Rigby, and though there were a very few bullet hiccups, penetration was always sufficient for the specific animal, and all bullets except solids expanded as designed.

Thanks MD. I can see another book in the makings maybe call it "The Campfire Chronicles"? You could have a final chapter quoting some of the most outlandish statements from the fire, if you do that I bet I make the cut as I have posted more than a couple of doozies.

Not cupro-nickel. They are gilding metal, an alloy of copper and zinc.

Well said.

I have a Kaibab hunt this fall and have been researching hippie bullets or if I should stick to ELD-X or ABLR. Reading this thread on the hippie bullets being compared makes me want to lean towards the e-tip. How do the TTSX and LRX differ? I am expecting my shot to be between 300 and 600 yards and i'm shooting a 300 win. Is there enough difference in the TTSX and LRX? Is the E-tip better than the LRX or TTSX at those ranges? I looked at the GMX but they seem to have a lower BC than the others mentioned.
Hope I didn't hijack the thread. Figure this was the same topic.

kique

Congrats on drawing that tag.

kique,

The LRX has a somewhat higher ballistic coefficient than the equivalent TTSX. The 168 TTSX has a listed BC of .470 and the 180 .484, while the 175 LRX is llisted at .508. The LRX is also designed to expand more reliably at longer ranges.

The E-Tip was designed with a wider, deeper cavity under the tip from the get-go, the reason it tends to expand a little wider than the TTSX. When Nosler was developing them, I handloaded some protoype 180 .30's in the .300 Winchester and took them to Africa, field-testing the bullets on a variety of animals, among them several springbok (a little smaller than pronghorns) at around 400 yards. They expanded fine at that range on those small animals, but I've never used them at 500-600. Nosler lists the BC of the 168 at .503 and 180 at .523, and says they'll expand down to 1800 fps.

Congrats and no wrong choices out of all you mentioned. If deer all of them would be good. If Elk then I might think twice about the ELD-X and ABLR but for longer shots these would shine and probably be fine for up close but with a little more meat damage than the monos.

I just completed another cull hunt, this time on fallows and reds. Two shooters, 3 calibers, 7 bullets, 500 animals. Of interest to this thread was the 80 grain TTSX loaded up to 3950 fps in a .257 Weatherby. Not to mince words, a more worthless POS is harder to imagine.

If your .300 will shoot the 190 grain ABLR you don't need to wonder about anything else. I've got several dozen fallows and reds with that combo; violently expanding and yet still exited on every animal AFAIK.

Nothing like real world experience to shed light on ignorant prejudice. Thanks for this heads up.

Monos may not have a theoretical velocity ceiling, but performance on game may not always correspond to expectation.

"Real world experience", yep.

It's where the rubber meets the road...

DF


Edited to add this link discussing, "can you push a TTSX too fast"...

www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/12175394/1

I think you can, depending on the bullet. This seems to be yet another example of just that.

Balance... Need to balance, mass vs. velocity for optimal terminal performance.

Common sense.

Maybe some lighter monos do have a practical velocity ceiling.

What about the bullet was bad? Failure to expand?

I agree. I have to add, though, that a friend of mine used the 143ELD-X, out of a 6.5x55Ai, on a big Nebraska cow elk last year with great results. She was shot at under 100 yards, and the bullet exited. It may have been a different story with a shoulder shot, but hard to say.

www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/12177399

Model70guy's response.

DF

Thanks Dirt

Surprised about the performance of the 80 gr. TTSX. I always thought the more velocity the better.

From my experience and reading what Model70guy reports, I don't know if monos, "faster the better" , is an open ended principle.

Intuitively, maybe. But where the rubber meets the road, maybe not.

One poster mentioned needing an S.D. above .20, whereas some of the lighter Barnes mentioned, S.D.s fall below that value.

So, seems to me, too small a mono, driven too fast can have less effective terminal ballistics than one would think.

I doubt Model70guy uses that combo again.

Hypervelocity, low S.D. monos are no longer on my radar.

DF

DF, there are exceptions to every rule. Ive been using a 95 grain TTSX in 6.8spc screaming along at a leisurely 2900 fps....but that particular bullet is designed to open well at 6.8 velocities....and it does


Ive got pics if you need them.....

I believe you, have also seen TTSX's open and perform well.

I think we're seeing light weight, low S.D. monos driven at warp speed not delivering effective/efficient terminal performance, may have reached their point of diminishing returns.

3,900 fps is way different than 2,900 fps, opens a whole new can of worms....

DF

True...Ive never driven any of them that fast......

I think excessive speed combined with low S.D. monos can reach a point of diminishing returns, disappointing terminal ballistics.

Where that break point occurs, I don't know. But I do think there is a point out there; I just don't want to find it.

And, I do like and use E-Tip, TTSX and TSX bullets.

Again, IMO balance is important, matching bullets and velocity for optimal terminal ballistic performance.

DF

If some think velocity doesn't matter, Read Ross Seyfried's impressions on the reaction of Cape Buffalo to a 400gr bullet at 2350 fps v one at 2700....

I've read those reports by Ross.

Velocity does matter, the 400 gr. bullet can take it.

The shooter is the weak link...

DF

GMX and ETIPS do more damage than a TTSX because they have more frontal area when expanded.

How do you figure that for the E-Tips? Nosler expects them to open into an 'X' pattern like the Barnes bullets. The difference in frontal area of the expanded bullets is probably so little as to be of little or no consequence.

And the Hornady video shows less frontal area than an expanded TTSX.

Just curious.

I've used them both, don't see a lot of difference.

DF

Because I have actually shot them. The e tip and the gmx expanded form looks more like a traditional mushroom than a ttsx. The nose cavity seems to be deeper vs the ttsx as well.

If TTSXs were to walk on water, some would say, yeah, that's because they can't swim...

Does anyone think Model 70 guy's experience with the 80 grain ttsx in the .257 bee would have been very different with a 100 gr TTSX? I have not seen this mentioned in either thread.

Has anyone tried both the 80 and 100 with differing results?

Funny! My dad use to ask me if I wanted a canary that could sing and dance too?

I use them because I want to use lead free bullets due to fear of exposing my kids to lead.
The TTSX are the least bitchy of all the monos I have tried. However, I am not a true believer and admit that they have some short comings. The true believers can't wrap their minds around this. If it were not for my paranoia in regards to lead I would never bother with them as a plain Jane ballistic tip kills better.

I've not used the 100gr TTSX, but have used the 100gr TSX a fair amount. Easily the most inconsistent bullet I have ever used. I have seen them drop animals in their tracks, even with long shots and I have seen animals run off like nothing happened to them with little or no blood trail.

I had the same experience with .25-caliber 100 TSX's, and in fact had a couple not expand much, if at all, based on the evidence of the wound channels. But haven't seen anything like it with the 100 TTSX.

BWalker, I am wondering if indeed there is a lead risk with the NBT. Can't see that being an issue since all the lead is encapsulated in the jacket and no exposed tip.

I personally think the NAB and clones is one of the best do all bullets made. That said, I am running 100 gr TTSX'S in my .257 bee this year because they give me a little better accuracy than NABS.

Perhaps Barnes would be doing everyone a favor if they would open up the tip in .30 and under bullets?

Sakoluvr,

That's exactly what they do in TTSX's. The hole for the shank of the plastic tip is much larger than the hollow-point of the smaller caliber TSX's.

A bigger hollow-point in the smaller-caliber TSX's would reduce ballistic coefficient noticeably.

I can't speak about the 100 Grain TTSX, but did put the older 100 grain TSX up against the 100 grain Ballistic tip back when my son and I were CWDing mulies. Deer that got shot with the TSXs that weren't spined typically ran; whereas deer hit with the Ballistic Tips anywhere in front of the diaphram typically looked like an invisible building had fallen on them.

Although it isn't an exact apples to apples comparison, there isn't a big difference. I was actually hoping there would be, in favor of light and fast.

I'd like to get in on that. The only bullets that have really grenaded on me were Sierra's. Used to us the 225 TSX in my 35 Whelen and the 180 TSX in my 300 Win Mag. I won't say they didn't kill, but they seemed to work alot better if you put them on bone. I think the TTSX's are probably a better mousetrap. I have 180 TTSX's loaded in my 350 Rem Mag at around 2875 so I may get a chance to use it this year and see what I think.

I do like how the BBC's work though, wide, flat frontal area on them..

The 200 gr TSX has been an absolute hammer in my .350 mag on Black bear. However, as Mule Deer alluded to, that is a big hollow point in the .358 bullet. The tipped version is too long in my Rem custom shop KS Model 7.

Steiger used to recommend the A-Frame in calibers that he didn't produce.

I do like those A-Frames. Pretty hard to argue with how they work.

Actually stopped using Barnes bullets after taking a few mule deer with 100 gr TSX's from my 25-06 rifle. One, shot at very close range, showed signs of significant expansion. The other two... not so much. But they were at much longer ranges.

I went to 115 gr Berger VLD's after that, then came back home to 115 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips for that rifle. The VLD's and the Ballistic Tips have both proved to be very effective, very swift killers.

Regards, Guy

Not to be snarky, but if you fear this then you don't understand the chemistry behind it. Elemental lead like that in bullets isn't a problem, it's not going to harm your kid. The danger is in lead salts which can enter the body. Think of Sodium and Chlorine, the two elements in common salt. Add table salt to water and it's just salt water, throw elemental sodium into water and you get a violent reaction. Pure chlorine is deadly, bonded with sodium it's just table salt. In much the same way lead salts like the compounds used as drying agents in paints years ago can be harmful, but their chemical properties are totally different from elemental lead.

Some, like the state of California which has a warning for everything, will make claims that breathing minute amounts of elemental lead will harm you. It's BS, but it scares people so it gets a reaction which is what they want. Bullets containing lead aren't going to harm your kids unless shot with them, that's the bottom line. I'm a fan of Barnes TTSX and LRX bullets but it's not because they don't contain lead.

Well, this thread just cost me some money. 6.5mm 120 grain Etips are on sale at shooters pro shop....

What is the difference, if any, in the .308 167 grain vs. the 168 grain that Nosler lists? I couldn't find any data on the 167 grain.

This is not what I have seen in limited use, at all. I see virtually no differences in wounds.

This is completely false.
What do you suppose happens when elemental lead is exposed to hydro chloric acid in your gut?

Or acetic acid.

Very little, the lead moves through your gut quickly enough that there's little interaction. The smaller the piece the more reaction and lead dust poses more of a hazard. People have been eating game killed with lead shot for centuries without negative effects. Lead shot was outlawed for duck hunting because of the danger to birds ingesting lead is greater than to humans, birds have a gizzard which grinds up the lead shot making them much more susceptible to lead poisoning.

Is the risk zero from ingesting lead? No. Is it miniscule? Yes. If you're the type that demands your kids live in a bubble and only eat organic vegetables fertilized by the poop of virgin heifers then by all means boycott bullets containing lead based upon ridiculous fears like this.

There are plenty of studies out there about it. If you filter out the PETA nonsense then you'll see the risk from lead is extremely low.

The problem is the small pieces are the ones that make it to your gut. As for people eating lead for centuries. This is probably true, however I woukd like to know how you ascertained people haven't had their cognate ability reduced by doing so.
And I am far from the kind that has bubble kids. However, I don't see a reason to expose them to lead neadlessly when they are so young.

And the studies out there are largely inconclusive, but one thing they agree on is lead is found in processed game meat shot by lead bullets.

I wish it were not true, as I think mono metal bullets largely suck, but it is what it is.

I’m a big fan of ttsx out of my 270 and 06.
Anyway, my question is how would etip or ttsx do out of 9.3x62. I saw some at SPS on sale and I’m looking to reload for my thumper.
Let’s say mv at 2500, 250 grain etip with Bc of .494. Puts me at 450 yard to their minimum velocity of 1800 FPS.
Do these bigger slows bullets have larger hollow cavity to open at slower speed?
How do the mono work out of slower medium bore such as 9.3.

My hunting party has no experience with E-Tips or GMX. (I've had a box of GMX on my shelf for a couple years now, just never got around to loading any.) We do have experience with X, TSX, MRX, TTSX and LRX.

The X bullets were very inconsistent in the my 7mm RM, the only rifle I tried them in. After shooting coyotes and one unfortunate antelope with them, I quickly abandoned them. When the TSX came along, I found it to be very accurate in the several rifles I tried it in but I could never bring myself to use them on game due to the X experience. The tipped MRX changed that. It proved to be very accurate and effective, as has its successor, the TTSX. My group has yet to recover an MRX or TTSX. No animal shot with them has run far and at latest count right at half have dropped straight down. Those that ran have not made it as far as some shot with other bullet types.

Our sample numbers with the tipped Barnes are too small to be definitive but far larger than with the original X bullet, which started failing from the start. We've driven MRX (I still have a few) and TTSX lengthwise through mule deer and have yet to recover one. TTSX performance on antelope (.257"/100g to .308"/168g) has been very good, in spite of initial concerns about them being too small for optimum performance.

At this point I don't see any particular need to change to or try E-Tip or GMX, although I'm sure they work. Similarly, the now available Trophy Bonded Tip and Edge TLR, while interesting in concept, will probably have a long wait to get tried. Just not seeing a reason to change away from something that works as well as the MRX, TTSX and LRX have been doing.

My group is not completely lead-free, probably never will be. Leaded bullets/ammo we use includes WW PowerPoint; North Fork SS and a prototype HP; Nosler AccuBond, Ballistic Tip and Partition; Hornady SST; and Speer Grand Slam - plus a variety of SP, FP and hardcast in the levers and handguns. More and more, though, we're headed in the lead-free direction. I seen no significant downside and with my grandkids growing up hardly knowing what beef tastes like, anything I can do to keep them lead free is a bonus.

Used the 250gr TTSX to shoot a PA whitetail buck at 116yds with my 9.3x62. Was very underwhelmed by the terminal performance of the TTSX at moderate velocities. Despite a square double lung hit, the deer ran nearly 200yds leaving a sporadic blood trail.

I highly recommend the 210gr Cutting Edge Raptors as they give the 9.3 some real versatility and work wonderfully on game.

In the 26 Nosler with 120's, I can't tell any difference, E-Tip vs. TTSX, regarding accuracy, terminal performance, etc.

If you push'em fast enough, they hammer game and can tear up some meat.

I think the SC study, premium vs. C&C bullets, WT's, traveling twice as far hit with harder bullets vs. softer ones, reflects performance mostly in conventional rounds at slower speeds. When you crank'em up, those bullets really perform. Slower, maybe they don't kill as quickly as softer bullets, at least on WT sized game.

I like'em. Speed kills. And those are some really accurate bullets. They do like to jump. I find it easier to find accurate loads with them than most hunting grade bullets.

DF

Same thoughts on SC study and Barnes. But I feel like studies of these types are like trying to determine what is the most effective fly swatter.

The E-tip appear to have a deeper hollow point than Barnes and may not be as deeply scored or pre-streessed as I have seen some that didn't split into distinct petals like the "Deadliest Flower".

I always have better luck with the flat base raptors. Do you have any 9.3 load data you'd care to share?

I have some 150 grain Nosler E-Tips I'm going to try in my 308 Win. I'm sure they will group okay, and punch a hole in a critter.

I’d shoot those in my 300 WM, shoot 130’s in my ‘06/308’s

Just me. Speed kills.

DF

Not 9.3, not flat based, but Raptors in a .308. These have excellent terminal performance as well as accuracy.

Not sure if you've seen JB's 9.3 loads. I used them when I was in the 9.3 business and they work as advertised.

DF

I very much like the E-Tips over the TTSX...

Wound channel, animal reaction, blood trail, etc....

Plus get a little BC outta the seal....

http://blog.westernpowders.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/9.3x62-Data.pdf
I have 8lbs of big game and Hunter. :-D

The human GI tract doesn't do a very good job digesting metalic lead into organic lead chemicals suitable for absorption. Metalic lead largely passes thru unchanged. Having said that, there may be a minute absorption, but hardly enough to be of concern.
.
Breathing fumes while casting bullets isn't good. People working with lead in an industrial setting have to submit to lead blood levels from time to time.

Bird digestion is different, they get lead pellets in their craw and slowly digest and absorb enough to become toxic.

DF

At hyper vel with the 26 Nosler, I couldn't see any difference, they both messed up stuff and were equally accurate.

What round, bullet and at what speed do you see E-Tip performance different than TTSX.

I know speed contribues a lot to making these bullets do their thing and was wondering how fast is fast enough for each one. Over a certain speed, it may not matter as much.

DF

Thanks for the tip. I'll have to try those 150's in my 300 WM. I understand how speed helps these bullets.
Have a good day.

I will have to go back and check my data logs. Will try and do so later today...

Here are some comparisons of the frontal area of a few 270 bullets. All fired from the same rifle. The 130 grain with all the same charge. I don't have a live test medium. So I had to set jugs of water up at 100 yards. Our little deer don't catch many bullets. Fairly controlled results though,and the differences in frontal area are varied no doubt.

Left to right is a 110 gr TTSX, 130 gr Accubond, 130 gr old school Grand Slam, and the Tipped Trophy Bonded. All the 130 gr bullets were launched via 55 gr of IMR 4350. The 110 TTSX was sitting on 57.5 gr of RL17. I don't have any e-tips to compare. Though I've considered trying them. The big rivet of the Trophy Bonded has been accused of veering off path in game. Anyone have any first hand experience with that?

It's in this very thread and you commented on it...grin... Start from the beginning....

You saying, read before posting...

What a concept...

Will check it out.

DF

The 150gr E Tip from my 300 Win mag has put moose down faster than any other round period. They are down before you feel the recoil. I use 75 gr H 4350 for a velocity of mach whatever. Easily the best bullet to come out of that barrel. I highly endorse the Nosler E Tip.

May try that one.

Hunting buds, father and son, love the 168 TTSX out of their 30-378 and 300 RUM rifles. That bullet at those speeds is impressive.

I'm thinking the 150 E-Tip at Win Mag speeds should be pretty similar.

I think many go too heavy with those bullets. Lighter and faster are mo better, IMO.

DF

Just checked Barnes 300 WM load data.

For their 150's, they have 75 gr. IMR 4350 at 3,300 fps and 73.9 RL-17 at 3,360 as accuracy loads.

For their 155, they have 75 H100V at 3,320.

All three of those powders aren't the most temp stable.

A 150 E-Tip at 3,300+ fps should be impressive, both at the range and on game.

DF

Just getting components together to load 150 BTs in the 300 WM now maybe I should look for some E-tips too. Speer shows R26 as the top speed load at almost 3,400 fps, if they shoot I will stop there. R16 is right in there with R17 but possibly more stable, that will be the second choice to test. https://www.speer-ammo.com/en/reloading/rifle

150 E-Tip pushing 3,400 should be wicked.

DF

Wow, you aren’t kidding about that. BC isn’t too bad on those 150 ETips either.

Beretz and Dirtfarmer, what type of twist does your rifles have? Mine is an old Rem. 700 BDL with a 1:10" twist. 30 years ago, I tried some 150gr bullets out of it, and they didn't group very well. Since then, I have been shooting 180+gr bullets, and they group very tightly. I tried a 165gr GMX last year, and it also shot poorly. I was just wondering what twists you have, and if they work with the 150gr variety.

That's good stuff Otter.

Can you reveal how many jugs each one penetrated and how much each bullet weighed afterward?

Not who you asked but mine shoots 130s and 150s just fine with a ten twist. It could be a case of a finicky barrel but I doubt it is the twist. Try a different bullet and tweak the seating depth maybe?

Thanks for the info Tejano. If I recall correctly, back in 1988, I just tried one box of three different weights (150, 165, & 180) and the 180s shot the best, so I settled on those. Since then, I haven't felt the need to go smaller, but was curious if it's even possible that my rifle would shoot 150s well. Sound like, from your info, that it is, at least, a possibility. Interestingly, my DPMS 20" barreled .308 with a 1:10" twist strongly prefers 165gr-168gr bullets over anything lighter, but it's pushing them a lot slower than the 300 WM.

I just remembered that the Hornady Lite ammo I shot out of it recently (which I got for my son to shoot) were 150gr SST bullets, and they made tight groups. They were only going at an average of 2,733 fps out of the barrel.

Std 10 twist is all you need in a 300 WM.

DF

That’s right but I did just put an order in for an 8 Twist Krieger... got a danged pile of 180 BBCs that need a good launch!

I think you'll be pleased with the Krieger barrel. They built my 6.5-06AI from parts I supplied (stock, action, trigger) and a 1-8 fluted barrel they supplied. Last time I had it at the range splattered 5 clay pigeons on the 600 yard berm with a total of about 12 shots. I'm very pleased with the quality of that barrel. (And the other work they did.)

I've never shot a E-tip, that said, I have shot a lot of the Barnes stuff. Here's my take. I don't like TSX or X bullets smaller than 30 caliber. I have personally seen several 25 caliber and 270 caliber TSX bullet fail to expand on elk shot a fairly close range. I haven't seen a 30 or bigger fail yet.

I think the mono bullets have their place (if you hunt in CA). I was in Namibia for 2 weeks in July. My two buddies and I shot 50 head of game. All of us using 300 H&H or 300 Win mags. One buddy loaded LRXs, the other TTSXs and I loaded mostly 150 Partition Golds. I did take one box of 150 TSXs for comparison.

We recovered a few bullets. Without exception, all the Barnes shed their petals. I culled a few hartbeests with the TSX and the PG side-by-side.

There is no doubt that a Partition kills much better (read quicker) than the Barnes. All of the PG shot animals dropped within 20 yard- even a very nice blue wildebeest. The stuff shot with Barnes (except for high shoulder shots) ran quite a ways on average. I shot a kudu with one that ran 130 yards. Shot 3 warthogs from one stand using both bullets. The one shot with the TSX just stood there for like 10 seconds. Bullet was double lung but missed most of the heart. The other two were shot with the PG. They both folded with the exact same shot.

I saw 30+ animals run off with Barnes poked through them including one kudu we never did find and I saw the impact on his hide when my buddy hit it.

I won't be using monolithic bullets unless required by law or unless they are big dangerous game bullets. I did take my 458 and shot my Eland with it. I had both 450 grain TSX and 450 grain A-frames. Both are awesome bullets.

I have had really good luck with Bergers on everything I have shot and seen shot with them. Hard not to like them for any instances where you are possibly going long range. I also really like the new ELD-X bullets. They are the real deal.

Great report. Thanks for sharing!

Good post.
In my expiereance if you dont hit bone or CNS animals run longer when shot with monometal bullets. Sometimes much longer.

Good post.
In my expiereance if you dont hit bone or CNS animals run longer when shot with monometal bullets. Sometimes much longer.

I made a side by side comparison of Nosler's 90gr ETip versus Barnes 80gr TTSX during a cull hunt in Namibia. Rifle was a Blaser K95 chambered for the 6x62R Freres, a cartridge with almost identical performace to the 240WBY. Twist was 1:10".

I found:

-Both bullets were equally accurate
-Both killed much better at closer distances and higher impact speeds
-The ETip would expand to a broader frontal surface and my thought is that it penetrates less, produces a wider wounding channel, and is a better killer. My non conclusive thought, though.
-Of both you would just be left with a small shank if you hit the humerous of blue wildebeest, oryx or red hartebeest.
-None would stop in a Springbuck regardless the point of impact, angle, and distance.

Here is a picture taken from above where the wider frontal surface of the ETip (one at the right) is quite obvious.

Chamois thanks what I have suspected but it is so infrequent to catch a bullet of either type it is hard to compare them. I also think the ones you do catch are biased towards the ones that expanded more but couldn't prove this.

Does anyone know if Brian Litz has B.C. numbers for the 0.224 55gr Nosler E-tip and Barnes TTSX? Nosler claims quite a bit better B.C. than the Barnes (0.305 vs 0.272) and they are on sale at SPS right now.

I'm just curious if the manufacturers numbers hold up to reality.