Do we go a little overboard on the need for premium bullets in non-magnum calibers?? Especially for deer sized game?


The old way of go heavy grain bullets for larger game seemed to work just fine, as long as the caliber was appropriate.

What say you?

How did we get to work without cars? Africa without planes? Ask silly questions without computers?

Heavy for caliber was typically because anything less sucked and you wanted at least a chunk of something to make it out the other side.

Never seen a problem with using something that works when everything is wrong, over something that only works when everything is right.

YMMV

We have become spoiled to having things 'near' perfection. In hunting I want something that I can count on working every time.
It's available, so why not?


ps: that's why I have diff rifles for diff circumstances.

How you do it is your business, leave me to mine own.

I don't worry about it. I shoot a 30/06 with 180 grains "Power Point" Winchester factory ammo. I'm good for anything in the lower 48. And probably AK too.

I never used a premium bullet on deer size game. I normally don't even go heavy for caliber. Actually I never used a premium bullet on Moose size game either. Only thing I ever had Nosler Partitions loaded for was my 257 Weatherby mag and when I took it out west I lent it out to one of the party and used my 270 anyways.

I use GameKings in my 308, they kill just as well as the TTSX bullets I use in other calibers.

Mike, a serious ? here.

Why did your hunting pard NEED to borrow a rifle.?

I find both ideas work.

Partitions, TBBC's and monometals all seem to blodshoot deer less than cup and core bullets.

That said, for many years I used 180 Cor-Lokts on blacktails to reduce the bloodshot from my '06. Some 150 grain Bronze Ponts convinced me to make the change.

Neither bullet type kills as quickly as lighter for caliber cup and core bullets. But who likes to clean out blood shot meat?

PA hunter. All he had was a 35 Remington and he wanted to go Pronghorn hunting.

Very Good Reason... Good on ya.

I can't imagine ONLY having a 35 Rem or 30-30, My mind does NOT go there.

people think better bullets make them a better hunter

Well, this’ll piss a few folks off. However, for the most part on deer at least, when I’ve decided to pull the trigger, it’s because I want thatparticular deer’s set of antlers. I really don’t care what angle the deer gives me, I just want to have enough bullet to get to the vitals, even if that means an entry through the rear quarters.

You are not a WORSE hunter for using BETTER bullets.

Better bullets are more reliable.

<............deleted.............>

I know it doesn't Jerry. But in our woods you really don't need anything more. My Grandpa liked to say "a 30-30 is all you need. If you use a 30-06 you'll just hit a tree". It was his way of saying the 30-30 has all the range one can use in our woods.

jwall I did not mean to criticize .just trying to say some people try to buy stuff to make them better. I read a lot of your post an enjoy your imput my bad

44

? Maybe ? I read more into your comment than I should have? sorry, therefore.





Thanks for your response. ATST (at the same time) I'm sure you know we have TOO many self appointed critics. Guess I'm .........


Jerry

Its hard to answer because "premium bullets" covers quite a range of terminal behavior. Some are perfect for a wide range of velocities and game. Some are quite violent and the "eat to the bullet hole" guys are going to hate them. Some are so hard that buffalo is about the right game size, and yet those have fans for deer. With variations like that, who gets to decide what premium even means? I'd say that some, but not most take whatever premium means to them seriously. They are few by percentage, but quite vocal. I'm no different; I will tell anyone my thoughts on bullets and solidly back the idea that some "premium" bullets are harder than optimum for most of the game most of the time.

It doesn't seem like it on a guncentric message board; but most hunters aren't even handloaders never mind died-in-the-wool gun/bullet/cartridge nuts. They are just millions of guys who buy their ordinary, cheap, simple factory loads in what seems like the appropriate weight and go hunting without a great deal of fuss. The ammunition makers have done quite a good job of producing ammo that makes most of the people happy most of the time by giving them what they need. Face it, most game isn't very big, or very tough or very far away. The farther you stray from ordinary, the more you should question what is so darn special about what you're doing. Chances are, nothing at all.

Good post.

How did we kill 'em before? Interesting question.
I'm not like most of the hunters you may meet. I'm more used to a shotgun than a rifle. Ohio was a shotgun only deer state until recently. Yes, I know rifles are more accurate, but it was not an option, so you learn to do it with less. Often by using a sabot round in a rifled shotgun barrel.
Second, most of my guns are hand me down family guns, and it was customary to learn the gun as is, rather than tune it to you with parts trades, and better triggers, though I may change out a scope, I generally shoot them as my parents and grandparents did. It's kind of a legacy thing, the passing of an heirloom. I just passed a shotgun to my son that has been used now for 4 generations.
I have no aversion to high grade gear, but I've never really had much. I own an AR-15, but I'm very much at home with a minimal bow and no sights. I've never used a release.and I'm pretty sure I shoot a bow differently than you do. I never hold at full draw, as most people do.
Third, all of my outdoor activities, hunting, fishing, camping, boating, is all paid for by recycling metals and side jobs. So an eotech or aimpoint is just not gonna happen. Neither will that best quality deer rifle, and that new camo pattern. I'll make do with a tasco If that is all I've got, camo that worked just fine 20 years ago. (It still does).
Forth, I have gone primitive, to see how if I could still get meat. Spears were a waste of time. A bent sapling and a boot lace will serve as a bow long enough to kill, and I still use a slingshot to this day on small game. I get razzed here regularly for even mentioning it.
Fifth, i do not reload (yet) so i buy factory ammo and use it. It works, and the length of the blood trail is dependent upon how well i did my part. If i placed that chunk of metal where it matters, i will have meat in the freezer. As for the antlers, I've never found a good recipe. There are no mounts on my walls, just bow and gear racks at the cabin in shapes to remember certain hunts.
Sixth, I've never even owned a single piece of scentlok clothing, or activated carbon.

I must be a terrible hunter, as there are only 3 deer hearts left from last season in the freezer for tomorrow's dinner. Too bad I only got in one hunting trip last season.

Nice post and leaves little to be said.

In response to the OP question, the game remains the same, only the game we choose to play has changed.

too hard, too much penetration ,etc,. .. Like those folks that carry too much (excess) money in their wallet.

Come to think of it I have carried excess scope magnification and too much gun for yrs , but so do many of
those unwashed types that don't use premium bullets.

those vain folks that wear too much cheap perfume or aftershave are the ones that really Fu*#&ing annoy me...



The long established NPs seem to be the common benchmark...

what made it a premium soft was its weight retention and controlled expansion, for deeper more reliable penetration.
Its deemed superior for certain task requirements..and has a greater range of multi task capability than some other
'lesser' designs.

No offense to anyone but I differ on that.
Yes factory ammo kills game for ALL those who don’t handload.

( P P here does not mean Power Point )
How many wounded game animals escape from ALL those shot with P P bullets. I have used a little factory ammo and saw the results of
P P bullets. I pulled those P P bullets and substituted good NOT premium bullets.

We will NOT EVER know the answer to that ?

It’s my opinion only but I feel to use the % of hunters who don’t reload to justify NOT getting / using / loading / the best you have available

is Just an EXCUSE.

No One Need Agree w/Me OR YMMV

Yes we did, and some still do. But, many move along with new technology. And, some use one caliber and one bullet type for all of their hunting. Using the aforementioned criteria....what’s great for elk, bear, or moose, may be a bit much for deer....but is still effective! memtb

I used a .30-30 for years, not knowing it was "entirely inadequate".

Still use it. So far, it hasn't failed.

[quote=horse1]Well, this’ll piss a few folks off. However, for the most part on deer at least, when I’ve decided to pull the trigger, it’s because I want thatparticular deer’s set of antlers. I really don’t care what angle the deer gives me, I just want to have enough bullet to get to the vitals, even if that means an entry through the rear quarters.[/quote

Naw that's about right....

Back in the day, I just used a state-of-the-art spear-chucker. I can't even spell it... At- something....

But damn- that was a THING!

This, lets not find another way to divide ourselves up. That said I been shooting Remington plain Jane green box Coreloks for as long as I can recall.
For my type of hunting and ranges I do currently they do the job. Dang straight if I thought I needed or just wanted to go to something else I wouldnt hesitate. The exeption are my weatherby 270 and 300wby mags were I use weatherby ammo with partitions. But I havent hunted with those in a decade.

The Fire never fails to impress.

I've never run into the deer that I couldn't kill cleanly with a Core-Lokt or Power-Point. Some of my most lackluster results on deer came from reloading with Sierra Pro Hunters.

Atlatl, short spear thower.

Mike

"..I've never run into the deer that I couldn't kill cleanly with a Core-Lokt or Power-Point. Some of my most lackluster results on deer came from reloading with Sierra Pro Hunters. "

A sincere ? Do you consider S Pro Hunters a "good" bullet, surely NOT a premium bullet?

Note, I said above ----- "I pulled those P P bullets and substituted good NOT premium bullets."

For the RECORD, I've said before --- I've never shot ONE animal with a N P or other Premium bullets.

I tried then new Winchester fail safes 308 win and 150gr on a small mule deer buck, shot him 3 times each bullet went threw him with like ball ammo, he finally went down no expansion at all.

Well-said

I do pretty well with my Browning BLR in 30/06 with Rem Core Lokt and my Marlin Guide Gun 45/70.

When hunting with round lead balls ,I use only premium round lead balls.

And premium flints.

😁

Thanks for the response, the idea was just to spur discussion. I actually am a believer in "premium" bullets for moose and elk - having said that, I have shot two elk and two moose with "standard" bullets and only one moose with "premium" (interbonds).

I agree. Very well-said. But there is a mentality today that a Power-point or a core-lokt or an Interlock simply flies apart on deer.

Me neither. And you can add the generic Federal "power Shok" bullet to my list too. Course I don't shoot deer in the azz either.

This has been an ongoing thing since the advent of smokeless powder and H.V. small-bore shooting, it took a long time for the bullets to catch up. I don't know what or how this premium business got started, it's just some bullets work better depending on a. how much Velocity you are driving them at and how close or far you are shooting, Then the general size of the game being hunted. For example, a 180 gr Hornaday SP works great in the 308- 30-06 velocity level on most things you would ever shoot with those cartridges, the Same Bullet in a 300 Weatherby, 300 Dakota then the bullet will tend to break up more than usual at the closer ranges. So you choose a better-constructed bullet for those kinds of cartridges. It's not rocket science. It's the same old light and fast vs Heavy and slow thing. Remember when the 30-30 came out it was 2200 fps with a 170 gr bullet before that, Americans at least shot rifles that were in the 1300 to 1800 fps range and the bullets of the day worked well at that velocity range. I don't consider a Nosler Partition or the like to be all that extra in cost over the standard cup and core bullet with regard to the overall cost of hunting big game even on my own land, even with a free landowners tags, I consider my property tax bill to be a part of my deer hunting costs. The buck and a half for the cartridge is kind of a moot point to me. But it seems that this horse gets beat to death just about every year at this time since the seasons are coming and well some people like to hear themselves type. There is no big secret in big game shooting, just shoot a reasonable cartridge for the tasks at reasonable ranges with a bullet that is up to the task you want it to do.

Yes...This! Though not specifically for antlers, I just want it dead...from any angle! memtb

Todays name brand American made hunting ammo. Is loaded with premium bullets, Powder, Primers, Brass. All have been improved over the last 5 decades.

I was going to add Federals but felt it would make my post longer than I wanted it to be.

Way back when i started hunting guys would take a week off work and go to deer camp - maybe they had multiple opportunities or could take their time for a good shot with the standard bullets of the day. Now I'm lucky to get 2 saturdays a year to rifle hunt and I want to make the most of my limited time/opportunity. I don't mind payaing a litlle more for a better bullet - hell 1 box of 50 will last me years.

And JWall, I do not consider Sierra pro Hunters premium bullets but I do consider them too tough. At least the .30 caliber 180 grain variety.

Core-lokts and rubber buckle boots with thick wool socks is where it’s at. Throw on a 5 pound Woolrich coat and be in Whitetail nervana.

Mike

I understand.

Diff idea:

I changed my sig line SO I omit my name.... it’s still Jerry

Yup. I wanted everybody else to know who I was addressing without quoting your post.

Guys, I'm NOT arrogant nor conceited.

But I refuse to settle for less when it comes to ammunition. You don't shoot A LOT of good bullets OR premium bullets, when you're hunting.
There are CHEAP bullets for practice.

where and what I hunt I can and do hunt with cast lead bullets. if I where to go out my home ranges I would want the best. hear a real big body deer is 145# .hogs are head shot and most deer are to. I like to hunt close in shots are 65yards less

Just guess’n.....you would prefer a premium hard cast, wide metplat, over a standard soft lead, round nose! 🤔 Hard cast, wide metplat, is my preferred cast bullet! memtb

sounds like no projectiles were recovered, How did you determine no expansion took place?

The new generation polymer tip FS is likely to expand easier than the old generation FS.

I had no bad experiences with the old design even at over 400yds....had some DRTs
and others ran a reasonable distance like they could with any other premium.
Some people were rather disappointed that Win. discontinued the old FS bcause
they shot well in their custom rifles and killed very well...probably the best penetrating soft of that time.

yet I had a guide at SCI Reno tell me the FS was too hard for buffalo....

44 -

A good hard cast bullet is a GOOD bullet. They've worked within reasonable distances for MANY years.
Nothing wrong with them.

I can remember Dad sighting in his '06 for moose hunting with those 220 gr. rounds. He'd tape a big piece of foam rubber onto the recoil pad and take his lumps. He killed a nice bull in '69. He hit it square in the heart and it still managed to run back in the bush away from the lakeshore before it died.

That is true and often the buyers aren't capable of taking advantage of the better equipment because they suck at shooting, finding game, etc.. It is also true that people buy 'better' stuff because they CAN take advantage of what the 'better' equipment offers.

I'v hunted with handguns to rifles capable of hitting clay pigeons at 600 yards. And I've had shot opportunities that range from a few feet to farther than I'd ever attempt. There are bullets I trust to work at both extremes and others I do not. The ones I trust get my money.

Y E P !!

A “Y E P” on both! This not only applies to bullets...but cartridges as well! Given perfect circumstances, an elk could be taken with an air rifle, BUT, just because you can....doesn’t mean you should! memtb

most bullets for deer are just fine,but here`s my thought and reason : I shoot a lot of nice bucks with my bow ,but I still go rifle hunting every year with the family for fun and very seldom shoot a big buck ,I always give them the best stands for rifle season,but if I get that rare opportunity in the rifle deer stand I want to use a good handload out of my 257 weatherby with a good bullet either swift a-frames or nosler partitions my reason big deer die hard and don`t want to loose that buck.

The "least premium" bullet there is is the round ball. I have used many of them to kill many kinds of game, up to the size of moose.

But I see 2 categories where I recommend bullets (designed so they retain 70% or more of their weight ever time.)

#1 is any gun that fires it's bullet at 2900 FPS or higher. High striking velocity is not good for standard bullets and contrary to what the magazine adds would have you believe, too much velocity DOES NOT kill large game better then somewhat slower speeds. It makes the round shoot flatter and has a bit less wind drift, but it does not "kill better".

#2 is "going small" on your cartridge for the game you hunt. There is NOTHING wrong with a 25-06 for an elk rifle IF you have a bullet that expands and still exits the elk. That's where a Barnes TSX, Hornady GMX or some of the best bonded and partition bullets are worth their weight in gold. Remember that bullet HOLES are what kills the game and a hole that exits is as deep as you can get. If 100% penetration is give to you, the only thing left to "adjust" is how big around that hole is.

There is never anything wrong with using a bonded or partition bullet on a white tail deer, but it's not really necessary. It's like asking if a 3/4 ton truck will carry the kids home from school "better" then a Honda civic. It's bigger, stronger and more powerful! yup, sure is.

And that gives you what advantage exactly?


I use bonded and partition bullets in many of my rifles. And when I hunt deer or antelope I don't often re-zero for a non-premium bullet. But to me it's more a matter of convenience. I buy large lots (at least 1000 at a time and often 5000 at a time) of cup-and-core bullets to have fun with when ever I can. I shoot them all year to practice and have fun with. But in late august I re-zero (when necessary) with the bonded or partition bullets and leave the rifles that way until I am done hunting.

In my wife's 30-06 and in my scout carbine (also a 30-06) I leave it alone because I use the same weight of Nosler partition as I do Hornady inner-lock and I have found the rifles shoot to the exact same points of impact with the 2 bullets. So there is no need to monkey with sights. We use Hornady standard cup-and core for deer and antelope and drop in Noslers partitions when elk hunting. 2 of my 270s are the same, shooting Hornady standard bullets to the same point of impact as Nosler Partitions. That makes it very easy.

My 6.5 M/S uses only round nose bullets, so I have no choice but I have found no problems with them anyway.

My 25-06 uses old stock 120 grain Core-Lokts and I have never had a problem with performance with it either, but I don't shoot elk with it. Not that I could not do it, but I have other rifles that I like better for that purpose.

Same with my 30-30. There are premium bullets made for it, but 170 grain soft nose bullets have been killing and exiting large deer for me for over 45 years, and I can't see any reason to spend more of the same size hole through a deer that can't do any better.

Another point is that not all bullets that retain 70% or more of their weight are "premium bullets. I have used a number of old fashioned cup-and-core bullets in various calibers that didn't do anything any worse then a bonded or partition bullet. But that can be a function of striking velocity. As an example, the old 150 grain Winchester Power Point bullet in a 308 Winchester is outstanding. I have recovered 2 from elk that broke bone, and one weights 129 and the other 131 grains. But that same bullet would no do as well from a 300 mag.

So the issue can become complex and unless you have a lot of years to test such things, it can be best to simply go with a "premium bullet" if you are in doubt, and that is one good reason so many hunter do just that. I super bullet probably is not needed, but it doesn't hurt either but for one circumstance . That brings me to my last point which I'll call "too much of a good thing";

In the case of expanding solids and Swift bonded bullets I have found that STRIKING velocity needs to be 2000 FPS or higher to make them work really well. So these types are best mated to rifles that fire their bullets at 2900 FPS and more, or are used at ranges of 250 yards and less. They are very popular for use on potentially dangerous game. No animal is dangerous at long range. Only when they can touch you! But those that give bad reviews of some of these bullets often hit game with them at 300+ yards with powerful rifles that give M.Vs. of about 2500 to 2600. So at the longer ranges the bullets don't open up much and sometimes not at all. Over all ranges and over the broad list of game, the one bullet I have found that seems to cover all the bases best so far has been the Nosler partition. The resent addition of bonded bullets may change my mind, but I have 50+ years of experience comparing Partitions to other bullets and the bonded offerings are too new for my to have the broad base of experience to speak from with any degree of 1st hand authority. So far however what I have seen with the bonded offerings of Hornady, Nosler and a handful of others may make me believe that the partitions are not alone at the top any more. (If I live long enough to learn)

I still use cup-and core in some of my rifles because a good bonded or Partition is not made for them. I also use c&c bullets when I see no advantage to switching over, but I have used a lot of bummer bullets in my years of hunting (now 54 years) in many states and in 5 countries. I have learned a lot about what bullets to NOT use. and I try to pass on that info to younger hunters when I am asked. But I have not lived long enough to make every mistake myself.

In a nutshell, what I recommend is to use a bullet to practice with that you can afford to practice with a LOT and then if possible and if available use a premium bullet on game. If you were to use 1/2 a box of "XYZ SUPER BULLETS" to confirm that they shot to the same trajectory as your "ABC standard bullet" and were just as accurate you would still have 25 left in the 1st box to kill game with. If you buy 5 boxes of XYZ SUPER BULLETS and you use ABC Standard bullets to practice with, you will become a very good field marksman and every thing you shoot will end up in your freezer, and over 200 SUPER BULLETS are going to last you a very long time. You only shoot game with them. Shoot dirt clots, far rocks, rabbits, grounds hogs, marmots, tin cans and so on with the ABC bullets and you'll find that being a good marksman is worth more than all the other trivia combined.

for me it's cup and core, can't afford super bullets, and all my hunts are DIY and on public ground

The intent of the post was to spur discussion as we all chomp at the bit to "get out there"

Thanks for all your input.

One tank of fuel for our truck, costs more than many seasons of premium bullets used....if handloading. If buying factory load premiums, only one or two seasons...including a zero check prior to hunting! memtb

The idea that says "bullets cost is not important in a hunt' is short sighted.

In some cases, the "super bullets" do not shoot to the same trajectory as standard bullets and so you cannot do much rifle practice with them at their high cost. I believe a hunter should fire hundreds of rounds every year so he or she will be at ease with the one shot that matters every year.

For the hand-loader that answer is to find a "super bullet" and a standard bullet that "fly the same". Shoot a lot of the less expensive bullets all year and be ready for the kill.

As a guide with many years behind me taking hunters out, I can tell you that many if not most hunters are not as skilled with their rifles as they should be, and a LOT of them have expensive scopes, good guns and high priced ammo as well as a lot of other high-priced gear, yet lack shooting skill.

So I do agree that a bullet that costs $2 a pop is not even going to matter on the hunt.
But that's only 1% of the equation. The 99% is about getting ready for that one shot a year, and that should involve many hundreds of rounds fired.


So yes, expense of the bullets (or ammo) DOES matter.
A LOT!

From a diff perspective.... On P 5 is posted.......



A F A I C (as far as I'm concerned), a guy doesn't have to shoot 'premium' bullets for practice. The majority of 'practice' shooting can be done with cheap bullets.

THEN shoot 'Premiums to determine THEIR trajectory and ADJUST if needed. I expect there will be a DIFFERENCE between the 2.

WOW! You know what other people are thinking. Can you teach me how to know that? I often wonder what other people are thinking but have never figured out how to read minds.

Yes.....That! If the hunter/shooter can’t or won’t re-zero prior to a hunt....perhaps he/she/it should take up golf! Many people use a 22RF for cheap, no recoil practice from various field positions, though I prefer to do the majority of my shooting with the rifle I will hunt with. For those that do not believe that working with the 22 cannot replicate shooting (field positions) the hunting rifle.....then don’t tell me of all the rifles that will be used for various game animals, terrain conditions, day of the week, or phases of the moon! “IF” that person is a “one gun” hunter....I might (though not likely) buy into the argument against the 22F for practice! memtb

My Dad and Grand dad hunted in Woolrich and 5 Buckle Artics.
Other Pap, hunted in whatever he had, open sighted 30-30, smoked Pall-Mall's constantly, and even built pine knot fires to keep warm.
Of course they never killed "Hoggs", "Monsters" or any of the stuff people hunt today.
They just killed deer.
Lots of 'em.
In family feeding numbers.

mem

I agree...

You said above.........

"Yes.....That! If the hunter/shooter can’t or won’t re-zero prior to a hunt....perhaps he/she/it should **>>> take up golf! <<<**

Many people use a 22RF for cheap, no recoil practice from various field positions, though I prefer to do the majority of my shooting with the rifle I will hunt with. For those that do not believe that working with the 22 cannot replicate shooting (field positions) the hunting rifle....."


I don't put any stock in "practice with a 22 rf." You BEST get used to the RIFLE and RECOIL of what you're huntin!!!!

Well, I disagree with that, in that a .22lr just may be the best practice rifle ever made for woods hunting. Recoil is cumulative and the less of it the better for the long run. The mind plays games with recoil and if it is used to getting none most times, there is a good chance it will think it is getting none when a .30-06 is being fired under a game situation.

If from field positions one can breakup clay targets at 100 with a .22lr consistently, or flip .22lr spinners consistently at 50, you are in fine form once your Wood rifle is ready to go. A good argument could be made for a .223 if one wants to move the yardage out.

For year's I've advocated practicing with cheap bullets. For AccuBonds I tend to use SST's as the practice bullet. POI is not quite the same at long range but inside 200-300 yards it is a non-issue.

For practice, I tend to believe that the rifle isn[t all that important. Mostly I have Rugers, but to practice with a Remington or Interarms or something else (or vice versa) doesn't seem to hurt any. I probably practice more offhand with my .22s than all my centerfires combined. Recoil is one thing, breathing, etc, are another things. I feel I still benefit as a result.

To my way of thinking, any practice is better than no practice.

If one can't shoot a .22lr well, then the downhill ride gets faster as the recoil goes up.

Absolutely.

I agree with that.

I shoot my 22s, rifle & handgun LESS than I shoot C F rifles.

I also submit , If you can shoot a C F then shooting R Fs is a tip toe thru the tulips.

WDM Bell would walk many miles a day repeatedly shouldering ,sighting a target and dry firing his rifle in practice along the way,
...he likely fired many thousands more dry rounds than the thousands of live rounds he fired at game.

Ahhhhh.....The point was recoil and the effect as it increases....Not that you can shoot your CF well.

Bell was obviously wise when it came to shooting....

Battue , I recognized what you were saying.
When hunting (during) I don’t shoot enuff additional rounds for recoil to have an accumulative effect.

I SURE recognize the greater recoil from 300 WM compared to 270 etc.

One thing became OBVIOUS in my shooting and I demonstrated it to several friends at different times.
This :

Shoot a heavy kicker some, more than 1or 2 rounds. Then

Shoot a milder kicker shortly afterwards. You WILL shoot the MILDER one better than you did before.

If you (especially myself) shoot the milder round 20-30 Xs THEN
Shoot the HEAVY kicker shortly afterwards, it doesn’t help your concentration & accuracy.

I’d like to expound per the 22 rfs.

I understand trigger control, sighting, etc. What I was talking about is,
Shooting, being comfortable, confident with your Hunting rifle and its recoil is NOT accomplished shooting the 22 rfs.

I’ll repeat what I agreed with Coyote Hunter, “any practice is better than no practice”.

After at least 300,000 12Ga I’ve come to appreciate not wanting the subconscious mind to worry about recoil. It is the subconscious mind that jerks the trigger. Makes little difference if I’m shooting a rifle. If someone is going to pull a trigger more than a little, then most should try and keep recoil at a minimum.

It is the subconscious that needs to be comfortable with any skill activity for one to do their best.

In my first post I highlighted wood hunting for a reason, and when practicing for that kind of hunting a .22lr is near perfect and without recoil. The recoil of my Deer rifle does nothing to improve my practice or success on game. A subconscious mind that doesn’t think my head is going to take another hit does. If you get smacked around enough you will understand the why.

I promise you that I've been smacked around plenty.

Black Shadow 300 WM -light FOR a 300.

T3X Lite SS 7mm RM - 6 oz more than my 270.

700 BDL 8mm RM - too heavy to like

****338 WM -- O G 77 tanger (red pad)**** NEVER again

700 BDL 375 H H - surprisingly pleasant.

OHHHH! I forgot one.
.
.
Win 1300 FTWT --- 12 ga. 3" mag., 2 oz lead Turkey Load ! ! ! ! ! !

That's what I'm talking about.....

My .338WM is a MKII in a skeleton stock, 22" fluted barrel. Not sure what the weight is, but relatively light. It has a Sims Limbsaver instead of a factory pad for good reason.

The first really cold snap of winter makes the rest of the winter seem mild. Similarly, after shooting my Marlin 1895 with my hardcast 460g/1812fps "Rhino Blaster" loads a couple times (about 52ft-lb recoil, IIRC), all my other rifles seem tame. The scope on the .45-70 is in Warne QD rings and comes off for those loads.

Another fairly brutal rifle is my Browning B92 in .44 Mag. This is a lightweight rifle with a steel buttplate. Max loads are not a lot of fun in a tee-shirt.

While firing a .22 or even a light-kicking centerfire doesn't prepare you for heavier recoil, something we agree on, I do think it can help overcome flinching - especially if the rifle has the same or a similar configuration and weight. Much as i'd like to have a Ruger 77/22 for that reason (besides the fact I just like them), my MKII .223 with 40's fills the bill pretty nicely. It has the same Burris 3-9x FFII Ballistic Plex scope I use on most of my centerfires, so it looks and feels about the same as the big boys right up until the sear releases.

[Edited to add]

My Marlin 375 (.375 Winchester) sports the hard/black factory buttplate. I wouldn't call it "surprisingly pleasant", just "surprising". [End edit]

Many years ago, we bought a pair of 77/22’s for the same reason. Cut the stock on the wife’s 77/22, to replicate her .338 WM. I haven’t weighted it, but suspect that it may actually be heavier than her big game rifle! memtb

C H - ummm, it's a little scary that WE agree so often.

Per my O G Tanger -- this was before 1990, don't know if Limbsavers were available or not. ??
I had my 8 mm RM in a BDL --- MUCH easier to shoot - more powder, 5 grain LESS bullet - HIGHER velocity. STILL have it.

I 'would' get a 338 WM in a GOOD stock if I needed it. Doubt I will need it since I have the Big 8 with partitions.

As to " surprisingly pleasant", maybe surprisingly LESS kick than anticipated is more accurate. PUSH, not KICK - to me.



Hey, Mike 74 - hear that about the 1895 ? ? My 300 & 7 RMs DON'T kick like that.

I hear it Jerry. My 1895 doesn't see those kinds of loads. It gets fed 300 Grain bullets at 1,880 fps. Not too unpleasant and plenty of thump out to 150 yards.

I agree on the 150 yds range.

I's just gouging ya.

I know

Sometimes people travel a lot and don't wish to have 14 different loads for one rifle. I'd also suggest that better bullets have made small caliber (read less recoil) rifles better killers. I have yet to see anyone that shoots more and better as recoil increases.

My 300 mag never was easier to shoot than following the summers I shot clays a fair bit.
A hundred or more 12 Guage target loads per week for a few months will toughen your shoulder up.
Are yoh one of those who crossed that threshold of shotgun flinch?
I never shot enough to get there, thank goodness.

A shooting friend has. It's a sight rifle shooters won't understand.
Tom would be standing there, swinging on a bird, his whole body jerking.
Not to avoid recoil like a rifle shooter.
But, in his attempt to force his body to pull the trigger. He wanted to. But his subconscious wouldn't allow his finger to move.

Worst recoil I have ever experienced was from a Rem 870 shooting a 3" turkey load while sighting in a scope from a bench! On about the third shot I involuntarily moved the butt a bit off my shoulder and touched off the shot. I saw red kicked the living snot out of me (not insubstantial fellow). Adjusted the scope and fired two more to make sure it was centered at 40 yards. The next morning when I looked at my shoulder I had about an eight inch circular bruise on my shoulder which persisted for about 3 weeks. Never made that mistake again, also put a Pachmayr recoil pad on it.

Yes, but I have it beat back for the most part. And yes it is a strange feeling to want to hit the trigger and your forearm tightens up like a brick and your finger won't work. Never happens on Wild Birds, but will sneak up on clays. Most of the time it is visual in that either the clay has got under the gun or the brain picture is off and it knows you don't have a chance. Again the subconscious forces you to reset.

However, there are times I have gone on a short walk, tried to hit the trigger and ended up watching the clay go to the ground.

You have to live it to understand. Shoot enough and most will succumb, rifle or shotgun. Best to take steps and avoid it, but most think it won't happen to them, which is normal.

M70 Supergrade express .458win [well aged old hard rubber] off the bench
might broaden ones perspective of nasty recoil like it did mine....

with equal weight rifles (9 lb) these are the Einstein figures

.458 win Free recoil 60 ft/lb, Recoil vel. 21 fps
.338win Free recoil 31 ft/lb Recoil vel. 15 fps

perceived or felt recoil is a different and variably subjective matter...
what can I say but....the ,458 felt convincingly 'seismic' in nature ..

Now If I was like Crapstick and had a few beers to start the day, it might not have
bothered me so much...

No, all you have to do it shoot it a lot. Lean how it feels, have confidence in yourself and become comfortable with it. Shoot something even bigger before you use the .458W and it will feel like a soft caress when you return to it.

(I just couldn't stop myself. I tried, but I just couldn't.)

After reading Starman’s post....I thought I’d calculate our (my wife’s rifle and mine) recoil. I used Shooterscalculator.com.....which I hope is accurate. I used the weight, as it it fired from the bench....only one cartridge and no sling! memtb

Her rifle: recoil velocity - 18.02 fps....... Energy - 42.25 ft/lbs

My rifle: recoil velocity - 20.1 fps ....... Energy - 55.33 ft/lbs.

Star

Your FT/LB figures sound reasonable to me. I used to mess with those often.

"THE" problem with the O G Tanger 338 was NOT just felt by myself. OTHERS on here 'testified' to the same.

It's more than the E figures -- stock design and RED BRICK butt pad INCREASES the "pain".
My 700 BDL 8mm R M shoots MORE powder, 5 grains less bullet, HIGHER velocity ---NO PAIN.


As I said, the BDL -aka- Rem 700 375 H H does NOT hurt like the Tanger 338 WM. I also promise you it AIN'T imagined ! !

If you AIN'T ever fired a 338 WM in a Ruger 77 (OG) Tanger, Red Pad...... you owe it to yourself to test drive it.

Yep! The 460 Wbee or 600 N E will tame the 458 W ! !


Ever tried it ??



.

Nope, and since I know it won’t work nor do we have Elephants or Grizzly close by, I’m not about to. I’ll just happily go on doing the majority of my Wood Deer hunting practice with a ,22lr. Has worked for years and also know that it will continue to do so.

Well, I thot WE were here to at least consider new ideas from others.

The nicest thing I can say is...... Enjoy the Bliss.

Well, let me ask this for consideration..

New post: I am an experienced shooter-have no problems with my current .300WM-who just started shooting my new .458WM. I hate to admit it, but the recoil is getting a little unnerving. JWall, I saw in one of your previous posts that if one shoots a rifle with more recoil that it will tame down my objection to the recoil of the .458WM. Do you thus recommend, I beg, borrow or buy a .460Weatherbee or 600NE and shoot it until I am comfortable with its' recoil and then try the .458WM again. This definitely is contrary to the recommendations of other experienced posters, that almost universally suggest one go the other way and build up recoil tolerance before upping the foot pounds over the rifle one has.

Thanks and appreciate your thoughts.

Addition: For clarification, this would be the post I am referring to.

Heck mine was a MK II and it was the worst thing I've ever shot.

Hey Mike

I hunt squirrels with my 270. 50 yd. head shot.

Well that other dude hunts rabbits with a 460 Weatherby so I guess it's all good.

Yeah, Elks demonstrated something (about which I had not heard) >>> I'd never heard of. <<< shorter, less words !

He found a way to actually USE the rifle INSTEAD of it just sitting.

I have NO interest in a 460 Bee and I don't NEED a 416 RM either. For whatever reason, Since the 416 R was introd I've been intrigued,.
The first gun show I attended AFTER I saw its intro, I found a vendor with a great variety of 'bulk' bullets for sale.

AT THE TIME, the bullets (not ammo ) for the 416 were $ 1.00 EACH. Kinda kooooled my desire.

If your shooting bullets designed for deer your results will be good if you hit them right. The worst of todays bullets are plenty good enough for deer factory load or otherwise especially if your using a bullet weighing 117 grains of heavier.

Just saw in another thread Elkhunter is in the hospital. Prayers sent and wishes for a speedy recovery.

Oh wow. Mike would you PM any info, thread, etc. I haven't seen/heard.

Jerry

I hope we don't have to start measuring the skulls on our squirrels. You're going to have a problem with that one.

It's okay if the antlers are intact.

Great post

All kidding aside, we often use the term "need" in what I feel is too broad a spectrum as well as the term "better" Each one is relative to what we want....nothing else and since we are (thankfully) not clones of one another we will often "think otherwise" (a better phrase IMO that I try to use rather than "argue about") what literally ANYONE else may choose.

Literally everything we do in this fine sport can, and has, been done with something someone else may feel is inferior......using whatever "yardstick" they have chosen to (allegedly) prove their point and/or justify their choice. All such efforts are in vain as we can see on the previous pages.

It matters not what particular area of the sport we discuss. Everything from if we hunt AT ALL, through choosing factory ammo or loading our own, the clarity, light gathering abilities, magnification range etc on our scopes, to how far we choose to shoot a game animal, using 4x4s or horses, or walking, magnum or not rounds, premium or not bullets, old "time tested" powders used for decades or new "super powders", even camo clothes, "scent free" paraphernalia, calls, etc, etc, etc are each and every one.............what we WANT.

The REASON some want what they feel is "better" is often WHY they want that particular item and that......often relates to making it easier, faster etc. Literally anything to increase the odds of success. Not a single thing WRONG with that and many may feel it's "cheap insurance".

Not a single choice from those above couldn't be done "with less".......but "less" is purely relative in itself. Who says anything is "less" this or that and why would someone else's OPINION mean jack doodley to us? Then.........we must admit that unless one is providing the only meat they have available for their family solely from hunting season .......we don't NEED to hunt at all.

Taking in all the choices that pop into my mind, sometimes some forget that like bowhunting........there DOES exist differing types of firearm hunters within our ranks, each and every one a fine example of their own way to bring the main goal of all hunting efforts to add to their memories. Satisfaction.

We've "build your own" black powder hunters, round ball or maxi up to Blackhorn and sabot shooters shooting the latest and greatest ML rifles modern technology can produce.

We've die hard lever gun loonies and they will stick to their choice of rifle and round for the duration.

We have small bore, high velocity, super light weight rifle loonies and big bore, "slap em down with a big bullet" rifle loonies.

Old Jap Tasco scope loonies and the latest and greatest glass loonies who pay more for their scope than their rifle cost.

To shorten what I could continue on about for several more paragraphs.........I'm positive we can all agree on one thing.

We all make the choices that we make that coincides with OUR methods, thoughts, and beliefs. To believe our way is the BEST way for all those who hunt.........is more than a little egotistic, and 100 percent incorrect.

None of us are "wrong". For OUR use we believe our choices produce what we WANT. Whatever others use that puts the biggest smile on their faces, I'm all for supporting. Go for it.

The whole "premium vs cup and core" SUB-category is nothing more than another part of the choices. Like EVERY single aspect of our sport, someone else will not choose the same for they have a differing opinion of what they want out of it all and what they feel is required.....or not, to get them to their own personal goals (which TOO will vary and often do so greatly).

HEAVEN FORBID if we all made the same choices! Give that a few second of thought on the aftermath that would produce........and lack of differing products as well.

Even our OWN goals change and often with it our choices.

I can give a personal example of just that occurring.

Just to say I have done it, I hope to set up for a 300 plus yard shot and successfully and humanely take an Indiana whitetail. My choice is a Nosler 120 gr BT pushed by a whole crap-load of RL-17 in my 7x57mm...........for just one deer (maybe two if another is standing there LOL).

After that?...........I'll be shooting 154gr round nose, 175 grain SP or round nose, maybe a 140 gr Core Lokt thrown in on occasion on top of 3031, 4064, IMR 4895..........and maybe I'll go out on a limb and get some 4831.

Do I feel any of it is better? needed in any way? Nope. I am fully aware that same Nosler 120gr BT and RL-17 load would work fine and dandy at any range I AM capable of completing the shot. It is not, however, what I prefer to shoot from the ol' 7mm Mauser year in and year out.

I CAN tell you though that the satisfaction of a 300 yard plus kill is really going to have to go some to beat what I feel from a 40 yard buck that I slipped up on one foggy morning. It's nothing more than a bucket list item I wish to check off...........but not needed in any way.

I often ask myself one simple question "WHY do I need to buy anything better?............ if what I have works?".

YMMV...........and probably will, but I'll not spend one second of time, not one single thought on trying to change anyone's mind.

Attempting to alter my choices would be equally ineffective and therefore completely futile.

"Different strokes................" applies.

Just my 2 cents.
God Bless for taking the time to read through it.
Steve

Well said! But, I’m sure that someone could argue with the concept! memtb

Rainy day conversation to spur discussion, thanks for your input

This. Appropriate bullet for the game hunted at appropriate velocity at an appropriate range. Lots of game can be taken with plain Jane bullets at moderate speeds farther than what most people think. But that doesn’t sell anything anymore.

I agree