Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game How did we kill game before?

This has been an ongoing thing since the advent of smokeless powder and H.V. small-bore shooting, it took a long time for the bullets to catch up. I don't know what or how this premium business got started, it's just some bullets work better depending on a. how much Velocity you are driving them at and how close or far you are shooting, Then the general size of the game being hunted. For example, a 180 gr Hornaday SP works great in the 308- 30-06 velocity level on most things you would ever shoot with those cartridges, the Same Bullet in a 300 Weatherby, 300 Dakota then the bullet will tend to break up more than usual at the closer ranges. So you choose a better-constructed bullet for those kinds of cartridges. It's not rocket science. It's the same old light and fast vs Heavy and slow thing. Remember when the 30-30 came out it was 2200 fps with a 170 gr bullet before that, Americans at least shot rifles that were in the 1300 to 1800 fps range and the bullets of the day worked well at that velocity range. I don't consider a Nosler Partition or the like to be all that extra in cost over the standard cup and core bullet with regard to the overall cost of hunting big game even on my own land, even with a free landowners tags, I consider my property tax bill to be a part of my deer hunting costs. The buck and a half for the cartridge is kind of a moot point to me. But it seems that this horse gets beat to death just about every year at this time since the seasons are coming and well some people like to hear themselves type. There is no big secret in big game shooting, just shoot a reasonable cartridge for the tasks at reasonable ranges with a bullet that is up to the task you want it to do.

Yes...This! Though not specifically for antlers, I just want it dead...from any angle! memtb

Todays name brand American made hunting ammo. Is loaded with premium bullets, Powder, Primers, Brass. All have been improved over the last 5 decades.

I was going to add Federals but felt it would make my post longer than I wanted it to be.

Way back when i started hunting guys would take a week off work and go to deer camp - maybe they had multiple opportunities or could take their time for a good shot with the standard bullets of the day. Now I'm lucky to get 2 saturdays a year to rifle hunt and I want to make the most of my limited time/opportunity. I don't mind payaing a litlle more for a better bullet - hell 1 box of 50 will last me years.

And JWall, I do not consider Sierra pro Hunters premium bullets but I do consider them too tough. At least the .30 caliber 180 grain variety.

Core-lokts and rubber buckle boots with thick wool socks is where it’s at. Throw on a 5 pound Woolrich coat and be in Whitetail nervana.

Mike

I understand.

Diff idea:

I changed my sig line SO I omit my name.... it’s still Jerry

Yup. I wanted everybody else to know who I was addressing without quoting your post.

Guys, I'm NOT arrogant nor conceited.

But I refuse to settle for less when it comes to ammunition. You don't shoot A LOT of good bullets OR premium bullets, when you're hunting.
There are CHEAP bullets for practice.

where and what I hunt I can and do hunt with cast lead bullets. if I where to go out my home ranges I would want the best. hear a real big body deer is 145# .hogs are head shot and most deer are to. I like to hunt close in shots are 65yards less

Just guess’n.....you would prefer a premium hard cast, wide metplat, over a standard soft lead, round nose! 🤔 Hard cast, wide metplat, is my preferred cast bullet! memtb

sounds like no projectiles were recovered, How did you determine no expansion took place?

The new generation polymer tip FS is likely to expand easier than the old generation FS.

I had no bad experiences with the old design even at over 400yds....had some DRTs
and others ran a reasonable distance like they could with any other premium.
Some people were rather disappointed that Win. discontinued the old FS bcause
they shot well in their custom rifles and killed very well...probably the best penetrating soft of that time.

yet I had a guide at SCI Reno tell me the FS was too hard for buffalo....

44 -

A good hard cast bullet is a GOOD bullet. They've worked within reasonable distances for MANY years.
Nothing wrong with them.

I can remember Dad sighting in his '06 for moose hunting with those 220 gr. rounds. He'd tape a big piece of foam rubber onto the recoil pad and take his lumps. He killed a nice bull in '69. He hit it square in the heart and it still managed to run back in the bush away from the lakeshore before it died.

That is true and often the buyers aren't capable of taking advantage of the better equipment because they suck at shooting, finding game, etc.. It is also true that people buy 'better' stuff because they CAN take advantage of what the 'better' equipment offers.

I'v hunted with handguns to rifles capable of hitting clay pigeons at 600 yards. And I've had shot opportunities that range from a few feet to farther than I'd ever attempt. There are bullets I trust to work at both extremes and others I do not. The ones I trust get my money.

Y E P !!

A “Y E P” on both! This not only applies to bullets...but cartridges as well! Given perfect circumstances, an elk could be taken with an air rifle, BUT, just because you can....doesn’t mean you should! memtb

most bullets for deer are just fine,but here`s my thought and reason : I shoot a lot of nice bucks with my bow ,but I still go rifle hunting every year with the family for fun and very seldom shoot a big buck ,I always give them the best stands for rifle season,but if I get that rare opportunity in the rifle deer stand I want to use a good handload out of my 257 weatherby with a good bullet either swift a-frames or nosler partitions my reason big deer die hard and don`t want to loose that buck.

The "least premium" bullet there is is the round ball. I have used many of them to kill many kinds of game, up to the size of moose.

But I see 2 categories where I recommend bullets (designed so they retain 70% or more of their weight ever time.)

#1 is any gun that fires it's bullet at 2900 FPS or higher. High striking velocity is not good for standard bullets and contrary to what the magazine adds would have you believe, too much velocity DOES NOT kill large game better then somewhat slower speeds. It makes the round shoot flatter and has a bit less wind drift, but it does not "kill better".

#2 is "going small" on your cartridge for the game you hunt. There is NOTHING wrong with a 25-06 for an elk rifle IF you have a bullet that expands and still exits the elk. That's where a Barnes TSX, Hornady GMX or some of the best bonded and partition bullets are worth their weight in gold. Remember that bullet HOLES are what kills the game and a hole that exits is as deep as you can get. If 100% penetration is give to you, the only thing left to "adjust" is how big around that hole is.

There is never anything wrong with using a bonded or partition bullet on a white tail deer, but it's not really necessary. It's like asking if a 3/4 ton truck will carry the kids home from school "better" then a Honda civic. It's bigger, stronger and more powerful! yup, sure is.

And that gives you what advantage exactly?


I use bonded and partition bullets in many of my rifles. And when I hunt deer or antelope I don't often re-zero for a non-premium bullet. But to me it's more a matter of convenience. I buy large lots (at least 1000 at a time and often 5000 at a time) of cup-and-core bullets to have fun with when ever I can. I shoot them all year to practice and have fun with. But in late august I re-zero (when necessary) with the bonded or partition bullets and leave the rifles that way until I am done hunting.

In my wife's 30-06 and in my scout carbine (also a 30-06) I leave it alone because I use the same weight of Nosler partition as I do Hornady inner-lock and I have found the rifles shoot to the exact same points of impact with the 2 bullets. So there is no need to monkey with sights. We use Hornady standard cup-and core for deer and antelope and drop in Noslers partitions when elk hunting. 2 of my 270s are the same, shooting Hornady standard bullets to the same point of impact as Nosler Partitions. That makes it very easy.

My 6.5 M/S uses only round nose bullets, so I have no choice but I have found no problems with them anyway.

My 25-06 uses old stock 120 grain Core-Lokts and I have never had a problem with performance with it either, but I don't shoot elk with it. Not that I could not do it, but I have other rifles that I like better for that purpose.

Same with my 30-30. There are premium bullets made for it, but 170 grain soft nose bullets have been killing and exiting large deer for me for over 45 years, and I can't see any reason to spend more of the same size hole through a deer that can't do any better.

Another point is that not all bullets that retain 70% or more of their weight are "premium bullets. I have used a number of old fashioned cup-and-core bullets in various calibers that didn't do anything any worse then a bonded or partition bullet. But that can be a function of striking velocity. As an example, the old 150 grain Winchester Power Point bullet in a 308 Winchester is outstanding. I have recovered 2 from elk that broke bone, and one weights 129 and the other 131 grains. But that same bullet would no do as well from a 300 mag.

So the issue can become complex and unless you have a lot of years to test such things, it can be best to simply go with a "premium bullet" if you are in doubt, and that is one good reason so many hunter do just that. I super bullet probably is not needed, but it doesn't hurt either but for one circumstance . That brings me to my last point which I'll call "too much of a good thing";

In the case of expanding solids and Swift bonded bullets I have found that STRIKING velocity needs to be 2000 FPS or higher to make them work really well. So these types are best mated to rifles that fire their bullets at 2900 FPS and more, or are used at ranges of 250 yards and less. They are very popular for use on potentially dangerous game. No animal is dangerous at long range. Only when they can touch you! But those that give bad reviews of some of these bullets often hit game with them at 300+ yards with powerful rifles that give M.Vs. of about 2500 to 2600. So at the longer ranges the bullets don't open up much and sometimes not at all. Over all ranges and over the broad list of game, the one bullet I have found that seems to cover all the bases best so far has been the Nosler partition. The resent addition of bonded bullets may change my mind, but I have 50+ years of experience comparing Partitions to other bullets and the bonded offerings are too new for my to have the broad base of experience to speak from with any degree of 1st hand authority. So far however what I have seen with the bonded offerings of Hornady, Nosler and a handful of others may make me believe that the partitions are not alone at the top any more. (If I live long enough to learn)

I still use cup-and core in some of my rifles because a good bonded or Partition is not made for them. I also use c&c bullets when I see no advantage to switching over, but I have used a lot of bummer bullets in my years of hunting (now 54 years) in many states and in 5 countries. I have learned a lot about what bullets to NOT use. and I try to pass on that info to younger hunters when I am asked. But I have not lived long enough to make every mistake myself.

In a nutshell, what I recommend is to use a bullet to practice with that you can afford to practice with a LOT and then if possible and if available use a premium bullet on game. If you were to use 1/2 a box of "XYZ SUPER BULLETS" to confirm that they shot to the same trajectory as your "ABC standard bullet" and were just as accurate you would still have 25 left in the 1st box to kill game with. If you buy 5 boxes of XYZ SUPER BULLETS and you use ABC Standard bullets to practice with, you will become a very good field marksman and every thing you shoot will end up in your freezer, and over 200 SUPER BULLETS are going to last you a very long time. You only shoot game with them. Shoot dirt clots, far rocks, rabbits, grounds hogs, marmots, tin cans and so on with the ABC bullets and you'll find that being a good marksman is worth more than all the other trivia combined.