Or anyone else with experience here. Looking to get a slapjack, aka sap, for novelty and/or conversational purposes.

Boston Leather seems to make a product that is well regarded and not very expensive at $24 - $44 depending on where you buy it. They make 2 ply and 4 ply versions of each model with only a one ounce difference in the Junior model I'm looking at - 9.5 oz vs. 10.5

They also make something called a "Denver" sap which has a straight handle and looks more like a lollipop and make them with straps along the shank or loops at the end of the shank. I'm thinking the one with a flair in the handle and a strap across the back of the hand would be better to retain. Also, any real difference that matters between a 2 ply vs. 4 ply? I'm thinking the 4 ply would just be thicker.

So - is this a good brand and are there any other good or better brands out there? And any thoughts on which is best for retention?

The Lineup

The one I'm looking at, their Model 5411, 8 1/4" and 9.5 oz.

Perv?

I carry a piece of auto freon hose folded in back pocket. Only needed it once. Impressive.
George

WTF difference does it make if it's just for novelty/conversational purposes ?

Carried issued one for thirty three years. If you hit a big guy with one it really pizzes them off and will get you hurt. Suggest a collapse style short baton with some type of loop on handle. Short piece of coated heavy chain with loop that hand slides through for retention is just as effective and less expensive. This is if you like close encounters. I don't and I am to old to fight, so leads us to your choice of cal in CCW GW

The more expensive version would be a better conversation piece. A $5 ashtray is just an ashtray. A $20,000 Ming vase is something one can talk about.

Saps and Blackjacks have been a no-go for the entirety of my career.
The Chief that hired me had a lot of stories about the one he kept in his desk from the 'old days' when he was a young patrolman. I confirmed some of those stories with the recipients over the years
It was an effective tool.

I'd be just as impressed with the vase as the ashtray. Which is to say completely disinterested in both. A knife with a blade of 420 J2 stainless is just as good a conversation piece as an identical one with a blade of s35vn.

I imagine it is all in the quality of the leather and thread.
Maybe if the pellets are in a sack inside the leather.....??

Saw an ad for a coin purse today that looked pretty neat. Folded over your belt and snapped in place. I'd look there if interested in that kinda thing.

Like this

https://www.ebay.com/i/303543469405...UPVB-Ub5YILh3XnImwOaKTGhDgsaAiTWEALw_wcB

I like this type. Carry in your pocket with the loop hanging out.

Stick your thumb through the loop and give it a flip as you pull it out to wrap around your hand.

All the weight is at the end and the braided handle absorbs all the shock to your hand.

Looks like Leroybean's husband's strap on

That is an excellent weapon!

Had one, but the leather was old and it was deteriorating.

Not as cool, a straight claw hammer. I'm not police, I'd thing if you were hauled in court, the hammer would look more like it was used for self defense than a fancy billy club.

When I was in high school I worked as a carwash boy at a Chrysler Dealer. I found several of those saps and lead pelt gloves in the police trade in vehicles. Back then you could count on the officer making you pour out your beer.

My brother in law was a cop for a while back in the 70's and carried one like this. He showed me how to hook your thumb in the strap and then wrap it over the back of your hand, that way if someone grabbed it and was about to pull you off balance you could easily release it. If it was looped around your wrist they then had a handle they could use to control that arm.

The thing with those is if you have a conversation with someone in the cranial region they tend to produce crushing injuries and lacerations since the force is concentrated in a small area. The flat ones can be used edge on for that effect but that's not what I'm going for. Your comment about shock to the hand made me realize why they have a spring steel shank in the handle.

Mostly just looking for a good quality item and about all I've found is 3-4 places selling these Boston Leather ones and one website that sells fantasy weapons has some no-name brand for under 20 bucks. One old article mentioned a couple of different websites but they must be defunct since the links lead nowhere and one link gave me a big anti-virus warning.

I'm mostly trying to find some options between running and a mag dump at close range. Thinking of getting some good mace in a pocket size container as well. A hammer, a sock and a roll of quarters, even a short piece of pipe filled with lead to be used as a sucker bar inside your fist are all effective but have drawbacks as to ease of carrying or ease of getting into action quickly. The novelty item under consideration can be carried unobtrusively in a back pocket where it can be brought out and used with one motion. If they are all classed as weapons then might as well use one that is proven efficient.

I've made a good living out of minding my own business but with the state of things today one needs to be prepared. And continuing with that, I'm just not sure an old white guy shooting someone who is a real threat of serious injury but who isn't actively in the process of shooting or stabbing me might still land me in a place I don't want to be. Options are good.

Bear spray

Remember when was "Don't take your guns to town?" That is the only place I do take mine.

Jim, you gotta stop hanging around all those snowflake joints downtown around Boise State.

L.W.

Lawsuit

Get some pepper spray. It works further out, is hands off and is defensible in court as a non lethal form of self defense. Hose the bad guy down and disengage. Is a sap effective? Yep, sometimes. And sometimes not, and any strike on the head can be viewed as lethal force. Some states may have laws that classify a sap as a prohibited weapon, much like a pair of brass knucks.

Entrenching tool. A pretty good discussion-stopper.

My dad had one with real lead in the end. I remember the scenes from 'Mulholland Falls' and wish I had hung onto it.

D-cell lights and saps have been off limits as impact weapons since before I started my career.





Minding one's own business goes a long way in avoiding problems. You really need to research use of force laws in your state and maybe attend some real training. Shooting someone who isn't "shooting or stabbing" you can still be justified.There are doctrines within use of force that important to know and understand such as disparity of force, lethal force, less lethal and non-lethal. Impact weapons can be lethal. Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown are real good examples of this, in that "unarmed" doesn't mean they're not dangerous. If you are carrying a firearm or a blade, there is already a firearm or blade in the mix. Understand that keeping those weapons away from someone who is already demonstrating their willingness for violence is your top priority. Afterall, you didn't invite them to attack you, right?

A good shoot is a good shoot whether it's one shot or a mag dump. If lethal force is justified, it doesn't matter if you shoot them, run a bayonet through them or run them over with a pickup. No law requires you to accept grievous bodily harm before using lethal force.

Pepper spray is a good choice. Be aware of its types and limitations and keep your choices within a small range of reputable brands. Don't dismiss blades as another tool. Again training is important here. Michael Janich has probably done one of the best jobs of distilling blade defense down into its simplest form using the doctrine of "defanging the snake". Some of his vids are online.

JiminIdaho: Back in the late sixties (1968 - 1969) I was a new Poh-liceman in a large west coast city. I bought my uniform pants at J.C. Penneys (2nd & Union) I was/am a taller person and the sales clerk asked if I wanted to save some money and buy and "older version" of the uniform pants they still hand on hand. I said sure whats the difference in the older version - turns out they had two on hand of and the older version. The salesman not knowing I was a rookie smiled and showed me the difference - the "older version" had two secretive "sap" (black jacks we called them!) pockets each below the standard rear pockets. I bought them both but wondered WHY would anyone need two "saps" (blackjacks)?
Once assigned to a walking beat on the original "skid road" I soon found out.
The veteran officers carried a "heavier" sap in the right sap pocket and a lighter sap in the left hand sap pocket.
The reason being the heavier sap was used to put the lights out on Negros and the lighter sap was used on Asian and Caucasian folks!
And of course the heavier sap which was in the right rear pocket was used more often and thus kept closer to ones dominant hand.
I still have several of my old "black jacks" and a few of my custom made night-sticks - I got pretty proficient twirling my night-stick if I do say so myself.
I can NOT imagine the hulabaloo that would be raised today in THAT city should a police officer swat an assaultive young negro criminal up a'side his punkin head (thus instantly putting an end to his dangerous/offensive tactics!)!
I probably turned the lights out on 100 (one hundred!) criminal cretins with my black jacks and double that number with a properly applied choke hold.
Sap's (black jacks) were a great and injury saving and time saving tool.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

It seems wise, if a lethal force weapon is called for, choose one with stand off effectiveness. And one proven to be an effective fight stopper.

I've been a cop 38 years. That thing is useless unless you want to torture someone.

Get a small Gerber hatchet.

Grandfather was a carpenter for a large builder back in the 60's. They were doing a big job in a terrible neighborhood. Guy told GP to keep a claw hammer on the seat of his truck cause they will try to dive in at stop signs. He did. He said one day on the way to the job a skinny fellow of color jumped in the passenger window with a knife. He said 3 quick thumps with a 24oz hammer changed the guys mind real fast. That day he went home turned an about inch and a half dowel on his lathe about 18 inches long. Drilled out the end and filled it with lead than capped it real nice like and fire hardened it so it looked nice. Till the day he died it was under his bed. U could cave a mans head in with that thing for sure.

PM me for specifics.

It depends on whether or not you are LE and your department policies.
If not, it can get you into legal trouble with the same, if you are unfortunate enough to need to use it.

There's options. I'm not a lawyer, nor do I give legal advice. Perhaps we can come up with options. No way to do so with a forum over 50 states and countries.

Whatever you get, the training is far more practical than the weapon IF it's practical and IF its quality. That is extremely rare though.

Losing an argument with a Honda Gold Wing at 60 MPH with a blown rear tire left me with a couple of titanium splints from knee to ankle and 15 screws in there. My "conversation piece" is a hollow aluminum cane with the bottom 5 inches poured full of bullet casting alloy. It's a pretty good GTFOM device that I can use while drawing my carry piece or the half-serrated thumb-assist knife clipped into my weak side front pants pocket. Having more than one self defense option is a good thing!