How about a discussion about law enforcement that doesn't descend to insults and slurs.

I'm posing a simple question.

Do you want cops to be able to pick and choose which laws they enforce?

With the caveat of officer discretion set aside. For example, giving a verbal warning for a traffic infraction.

No!

I also don't want choke holds, neck kneeling, OC, batons, or no knock warrants banned.

They all can be a big problem improperly used, but so can case, guns, flashlights,
hands or feet.

The more tools one has to work with, the better they can work.
However, they need to be accountable for the use of those tools.


And the warrants should probably more rare.

One of the officers that actually shows up at the range on his own time told me the always on body camera took away some their ability to cut folks some slack. IDK, back in the day I was certainly cut some slack a couple of times. Mostly doing stupid chit on motorcycles.

Yes

I have done this job for better than 20 years. I do my dead level best to be fair in my enforcement of the law. Officer discretion has gotten me better results than any other "tool" that I have. Not everyone needs to go to jail. Blanket enforcement with no consideration for the individual is n,ot good. Cops are people, people with families. The world isn't black and white. Being a cop isn't either. Everything is in the nuance. I understand the internet outrage, but temper it knowing that the outraged people are seeing things from the outside.
Patrick

Do you mean letting someone go with a warning for going 10 over the speed limit when there is no traffic?

Or do you mean letting a whole lot of traitors go, as they burn cities, loot, rape, rob, vandalize and sometimes murder?


Funny, but in the last 6 months I have seen a LOT more of the 2nd category on TV, but in 64 years I have seen the 1st category only 1 time personally, and heard of it by others it's happened to. So that's 3 I know of.

In category 1, lets just guess how many innocent people were looted, robbed, raped, murdered threatened and vandalized in ....say....the last 4 weeks? How about in the last year. Wanna guess a number?


Think it's more then 3?

Before they can do that, they must first know the law.

I absolutely want officers to have discretion with minor offenses.

LOL. Good one Roger. And very appropriate.

A discussion on the Camp 🔥 that doesn't descend to insults and slurs.

Sorry Gruff. Ain’t gonna happen.

Gruff,
cops already choose which laws they want to enforce, at least that's been my experience. Year ago it was not uncommon to be told to "get the car home and we don't want to see it on the street until 0700, if we do you're going straight downtown. " And more than once we were told to spill out the booze, you're underage and then let go to continue our evening.

I'm not terribly unhappy with law enforcement as it predominantly stands today. That said, some major metro areas are WAY different than what I experience out here now.

I happen to think court cases have led to some of the issues. I'm no fan of the "no-knock" warrants in general, but I do recognize the need in certain cases . Better intel might lead to better results and fewer mistaken addresses and such.

Cops should be able to do their jobs, as best they can, but others have noted there's a high percentage of Type A personalities that apply and are chosen for the job of policing. Not always a bad thing, but those types are not known for their "restraint". ( https://www.powerofpositivity.com/10-traits-of-a-type-a-personality/ )

Now, lets see where we get with the descending into "insults and slurs".

If there weren't so many bullshit laws, they wouldn't have so much trouble enforcing good laws.

last 3 times i've been stopped i was just given a warning.

By any standard, & taken on the whole, the problems in this country stem far more from blacks that don't think that they should be subject to any laws, than from any "bad" cops or selective enforcement.

In that respect, 13% of the population comprises more than half the crimes committed & that is exactly the problem. Which half the country doesn't want to either face up to nor solve.

And there is no one to blame for that except the blacks, as there is no one able to solve those problems but the blacks................but they can't & they won't.

Anyone who sincerely believes that cops & law enforcement are THE problem have serious issues that need resolution.

MM

Many don't seem to understand the difference between officer discretion and picking which laws to enforce.

For those posters that say "yes", does that apply to practicing moslem Somali emigres in MN (just for an example) too? Or just your local cop you don't want to enforce the law your elected government passed?

Like the 65 year old mechanic at work who back in the day built drag bikes and raced all over the country. He’d recently bought a Hayabusa, country highway. Highway Patrol gets him at 120. Officer walks up as he is pulling off his helmet, crew cut silver hair. Very distinguished look to him. “Oh good God, I thought I’d got some 20 year old. Will you slow it down before you kill your self.” Went back to his patrol car and drove off. Said he didn’t even get his license checked.

And if that DUI the cop lets go home kills a family on their way home from visiting grandma, how many are going to give him a pass?

I don't think that cops are letting looters go because they feel that it's ok. Sometimes you have to pick the hill you want to die on. Standing in front of a mob is neither productive or noble. If you believe that the cops are letting the looting happen because they are complicit I think you should step back and look at the bigger picture.
Patrick

One definition of a police state is a situation wherein there are so many laws that are so complex that you are always breaking one or more law at any given time. Then, law enforcement ‘looks the other way’ on most infractions, right up to the point that they want to stop you for something/anything/nothing. As a citizen/subject in a police state you always feel like you are looking over your shoulder, even when doing nothing wrong. Kind of like how it feels to live in or visit California. Two things need to exist for this to happen. A web of laws and officer discretion.

I’m not saying we are or are not at that point yet, but there it is. If there was no discretion, people would demand that crappy laws were abolished, because they would be sick of the consequences of 100% enforcement of said laws. Discretion lets politicians pass crappy laws knowing that there will be little protest as folks will feel like they got a break when the police looked the other way.

I do absolutely want law enforcement to resist enforcing unconstitutional laws. That’s a lot easier said than done, as the constitutionality of laws is decided by courts (if it even makes it to court). Everyone has slightly different views of constitutionality.

Kinda tired of the whole, "now that I have you pulled over, I have to" story!

Witnessing felonious assault and giving a verbal to a speeder are the same thing to you?

Rhetorical question

The problem is the liberals can’t see it as that, they see it as whitey has all the privilege and that the 13% black population is targeted unfairly, just look, over 50% of the crimes are prosecuted against them. White privileged is alive and well...

I do tend to ride toward windmills on occasion.

LOL 🤠

Good grief Gruff. That's the same old song and dance cops always use. And for the record, I don't know the difference between officer discretion and picking and choosing. Sounds like slightly different ways to describe the same thing.

Personally, I'd like to see all LEO crap scrapped and a return to Peace Officers. Maybe that's just semantics, but I believe words have meaning. There are some fine cops out there. Let them do their jobs and protect and serve rather than just be an agent of the local commies. This shixt where guys like Kyle Rittenhouse get arrested and rot in jail (AFAIK he ain't out) is bs, especially when there's a catch and release policy where BLM is concerned.

With the mask laws/mandates in so many areas not being enforced I think yes is the only reasonable answer. And that’s just a current example.

^^^^^^^^^^^THIS, and it's about time someone actually puts it in perspective.^^^^^^^^^^^

Dodge268, I am betting you are feeling insulted and attacked now. Please don't.

You see, as a cop it's YOUR SWORN JOB to uphold the Constitution and be the warrior for the people. if you don't like that, quit, but don't act like your money is more important than mine of any one else. And from what you write, it sounds like you ARE trying. But calling out the faults of the system of allowing obvious wrong doing to continue in the name of "keeping the job" is the reason and the ONLY reason our county is now in danger of being destroyed. As I said before, politicians and judges NEVER kick doors, NEVER strong arm people, and NEVER arrest people. ONLY Cops do that.

If you re-read my article I wrote here (link>> https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...d-the-horse-they-road-in-on#Post15228651 ) you'll see scathing rebuke for corruption, but not for honest brave cops and never for a cop who will stand his ground against something that is OBVIOUSLY evil and unconstitutional.

If you did stand against unlawful orders and you did arrest those giving them and you were fired you have the option (and the duty) to sue for wrongful termination and can site the Bill of Rights as a reason to NOT obey orders, and article 3 section 3 for arresting someone giving you unlawful orders that are evil, and you DO HAVE FULL power to arrest anyone for treason or operation under color of law. those are both felonies. Can you win? Maybe and maybe not, but doing it will cause an effect to let evil politicians know they are not safe in their crimes and bring attention to the issue. Let the evil people defend themselves in front of a court and call for PUBLIC review. Like Richard Mack, that is how you be a VERY GOOD COP, not going along to get along. Bring it into the public eye. That's what you swore to do. Talk to your fellow officers and see what they say. But the "thin blue line' needs to be a line between the innocent and the evil ones, not ant a rope to tie the innocent up with so the evil ones can hurt them more.

We have lawful methods to act on. If you and other cops don't do it and just keep going along to get along, do you actually think you will have better options in the future with a communist overthrow of our nation? Do you think you will be honored and still get your pension when taxes have to be raised 3 to 6 time higher?

The paycheck and retirement you are hoping for will be some of the first things you'll see destroyed under the new system YOU are working to promote-------- by not defying it and opposing it.

please think about this and understand you can't avoid the issue.

I don't think it's just blacks, but scumbags of all sorts and those that have allowed the downplay of serious crimes and over-criminaization of chit that is not actually felony level.

I don;t feel attacked or insulted. I just don't understand why people don't get that you have to work inside the system. What my ideals are are different from the reality where I live. I wish everything was as cut and dried as it seems in the internet world where you live. I do what I can where I can and try to live with the rest.
Patrick

The only way to do that is to eliminate city and state cops as they are beholden to the mayor or governor and return to just local Sheriffs as they are beholden to the people as they are elected.

Cudos to you sir.

I haven't seen any singing or dancing.

Agents of the local commies. Would those commies be the ones elected into positions of power?

So, to paraphrase, you want the cops who are hired to enforce the law, to ignore the laws passed by the folks elected into positions to make the laws. Is that a fair assessment?

Assuming said laws aren't in direct conflict with the constitution. But having said that, who interprets the constitution? The random dude sitting at the computer posting on a message board, or the judges elected or appointed by those elected?

Elections have consequences, that's not limited to POTUS.

I just want them to enforce the law EXACTLY THE SAME on politicians/mayors/judges/each other as they do on us peons. LMFAO !!

That is something I don't think anybody could disagree with.

Have not heard of it happening the way I described in over thirty years. And yes, that was not so smart. Neither was giving an "upstanding member of the community" a ride home in the back seat while officer #2 drove the person's car home for them.

Neither was the looking the other way when someones old man whacked the kids, or the old lady in a manner which today would be called child or spousal abuse. The next time he might kill a kid or his wife. And yep, it happened that way in the "olden days" I lived through, just like telling a borderline (or over the line no doubt) DUI to get the car home.

How does one limit lack of smarts in officer discretion? Have them enforce the law stringently every time?

No,

it's just the blecks.



Well, maybe some of them Latinos too.

And a few of them Asian gangsters.

Thanks

I don’t particularly care for law enforcement as a group, but I don’t see any way a policeman could make the public happy right now. I also don’t see what would draw anyone to that career at this time.

I’d bet in the next 10-20 years you.’lol see some real losers wearing badges. I sure wouldn’t want to do it.

Not realistic. If they did that, they wouldn’t have a job for long.

It not only makes sense, it’s the only way to keep going long term.

Indeed

That's a big part of the problem.

And the white trash tweakers. That goes without saying.

Tweak definitely has been a factor. (meth)

I've got a good friend that had a serious drug problem (since put behind him). Smoking coke. He was at the bottom and really in crisis. He called the cops, mainly to prevent himself blowing his brains out. They arrested him for possession.

Now he wasn't selling it and wasn't hurting anyone but himself.

Perhaps a bit of 'discretion' was in order.

No, campfire consensus is it's all the blacks fault........all of society's woes.

If it weren't for the blacks taking all those "fair hiring practices" jobs, those tweakers would have been able to have nice jobs, a good self image, and there would be no need for them to do meth.

The whole law and order issue has been corrupted by elected officials, judges, lawyers, and law enforcement officers. Many laws are passed with the sole intent of generating revenue under the pretext of public safety. Then there are unenforceable laws that are passed with the intent of being additional charges added on to the orginal crime in the hope something will stick. There are so many laws you cannot go through a day without breaking a law of some kind.
I generally have no problem with how the police deal with violent criminals who present a threat to the officer or others. They have to make split second decisions that often involve life or death. If you don't want to deal with law enforcement at this level then do not commit serious crimes. I do have a problem with late night and early morning raids especially when they get the wrong address.
My main problem with law enforcement is over zealous enforcement of bull schidt revenue generating laws. Driving alone and not wearing a seat belt is a personal decision. Going 10 or even 20 miles per hour over the speed limit when there is no one else on the road endangers nobody. Not wearing a helmet on a motorcycle is a personal choice. Yes, I think officers need to have more disgression when it comes to enforcing these type laws, especially when arresting someone and creating a police record has the potential to seriously affect their life and livliehood.

In the real world there’s no perfect answer. Do you handcuff good cops and not allow common sense/discretion. Or do you work to the lowest common denominator of incompetent or dirty cop and make them robots? The same concept applies to judges do you give them leeway when giving a sentence based on individuals or due you have exact mandated sentences with no leeway for individual cases.

Either way in an imperfect world full of imperfect people there’s going to be mistakes and miscarriages of justice. Overall most police are pretty decent reasonable people in my experience and the public is best served with cameras on every officer and then granting them some discretion.

👍
Blanket restrictions or prohibitions on the use of choke holds, neck kneeling, OC, etc only increases the likelihood that lethal force will be used.
Properly used, those tools saves lives.

That'd be a screening and training process that would probably cut down the viable applicants to unsustainable levels, even before this current nonsense.




Ask any cop you don't hate that has kids and ask them if they would encourage their kids into that line of work. Then ask them if they would've gotten the same advice.

If it's bad now, with heavy handed or asswhole cops, like you said give it 10-20 years. Once the new hires promote up it's going to be bad beyond belief.

Did the arrest mount to much time? Judge sentence him to rehab maybe? Unfortunately for him, good possibility he has a felony on his record though. But, it sounds like it saved his life also.

Yeah, that type A personality has some good qualities for being a cop, but it's kind of like the "pit bull" problem...........they're good for the job until they're not.

Weeding out the wrong ones would cost the taxpayers too much money too. And no one wants to pay taxes, or more than they already pay.

I completely agree. There’s a lot of people that still think a plea bargain is a prosecutor letting a criminal off easy. The reality is the prosecutor has all of the power and is free to overcharge and also to basically charge someone several times for the same crime. One example is “using a computer in the commission of a crime” what difference does it make if a computer was used or not. Charge them for the crime committed. A “hate crimes” and on and on.
It’s a tool for the prosecutor to overcharge and multiple charge while at the same time having nothing to lose. It’s the person being charged looking at years in jail the prosecutor gets paid either way and never loses a dime. So they’re free to charge through the nose and if they lose so what. The person being overcharged is almost forced to take a plea or go bankrupt fighting a serious charge if they win and prison if they lose.

No. Took a life changing accident to do that. Not drug related. No time. The conviction was expunged, I believe.

And here we sit.......

Well, seems someone was looking out for him, one way or another.

Glad he's off the "stuff" now.

I would save money and eliminate police departments especially in small communities. You could do what Communists did after the war to protect citizens. Every so often on regular basis each able-bodied member of village in small group would have to patrol area to prevent problems and issues. With everyone in countryside armed to teeth why do you need police force in the first place? It is just like with subsidizing huge military apparatus with tax based money and zero probability of invasion from foreign sources. The Chinese are doing very good business w/o having military bases where they conduct economic ventures indicating that this can actually be done.

I can't wait to see the replies to THAT post Slavek

How do they do it in your country?

Tired and no patience to read all this.

But, I will say, if you make it absolutely black and white, no room for discretion or nuance, then there is no reason to have anything but $14 per hour employees to be cops.

Like a school administrator that refuses to ever really evaluate situations but just follow zero-tolerance type rules.

would those folks still be allowed to carry guns and stuff?

and use them???

You eliminate all officer discretion and you wind up with a cop dumber than a robot, not the Isaac Asimov robot, the one that sweeps your floors.

You must not have much interaction with feral negroes. Heck, I believed the equalist propaganda I was fed in public school...until I moved into feral negro territory. My younger self owes lavish apologies for all the equalist and anti-southern white propaganda I believed and sometimes repeated.

But, yes, in places with underclass whites and tweakers, white trash cause hella problems. But in places where low and middle class whites have been run off (like Manhattan) and the only whites left are upper class whites and (((whites))), yep, nearly the entire violent crime problem is black and some brown. NYC really could defund whole departments if they squeezed out the remaining blacks and browns. Which NYC upper class whites and (((whites))) have been doing for decades.

So basically your argument is not in the color of their skin but geographical in nature, combined with some feral quality?

The comment about "places with underclass whites and tweakers." holds true in places with underclass Latinos, or Asians for that matter.

I try to avoid interaction with feral anybody. Not sure why you moved into "feral negro territory", job related? I might have looked for other work if that's the case.

Growing up in the suburbs of a large metro SoCal city, working in some urban neighborhoods that had their share of negros and other races, working in a variety of jobs with them, gave me an understanding of some folks. The feral ones exist in some places that aren't so "underclass" even.

Not sure how you sussed out geography as determinant.

Biology > culture > politics > economics.

Places with more blacks are nastier and violent than places without. And the reason is the blacks, not the geography.

Blacks are feral in their natural state. They are terifically violent wherever they end up:africa, europe, usa, s america, carribbean, asia. Same violent behavior patterns. The only way to attenuate their violent behavior is by severe social control:jim crow, apartheid, mass incarceration, bondage.

A few here and there can manage civilized behavior of their own accord, but policy made on the assumption that such well socialized and behaved blacks are the norm is doomed to failure.

As a minor i did not have much choice but to move with my family, legally and practically. My folks also had imbibed the equalist bunk and lived negro-free up until then. We ALL got a lesson in reality, good and hard.

I believe I would thrive in a world without law enforcement and I encourage communities to be rid of it.

Right here. ^^

kwg

We are in this mess because of criminals, what % of the 13 percent actually are criminals ? How about the tweekers, how many times have they been arrested convicted and them released from prisons after a token period of time that in reality just strengthens their abilities and associates in the criminal world.

In parts of our country there is no shame in criminal activity, and the time spent in jail is more like a vacation, than a punishment . We need to make criminal activity hurt, and hurt a lot, if it takes beatings or deporting them, so be it, give a whole new meaning to three strikes and you are out ! We need to end life time criminals and lives of crime, the loss of all government handouts !

Quote
If it's bad now, with heavy handed or asswhole cops, like you said give it 10-20 years. Once the new hires promote up it's going to be bad beyond belief.

You don’t need 10 to 20 years you’ll get it in a couple years we’re seeing it now.major cities have cops that are complete [bleep]. My father His two brothers, my brother and myself, short stent, were NYPD. There definitely is a new breed of police officer, soon enough we’re gonna have a third world police force, You think things are bad now.

That is dead on correct. You have some supervisor and some desk sitter looking up your azz the entire shift. Their perception from what they see on camera, with audio or not, is what it is. An explanation from you, giving full information, probably will not be accepted.

The singing and dancing would be the use of that same scenario over and over to illustrate why it is so important to pull every last speeder over and ticket the hell out of them because they might be a drunk who is gonna kill half the state on their half-mile drive from the drunk place to their crib.

"Local commies" would be Democrats. Democrats would be who are elected in the cities were are seeing trouble in...Portland, Kenosha, etc.

No, it's not what I said, nor a fair assessment of what I meant. Ideally, cops would enforce the law hard on people I don't like and ignore any transgressions that I or my friends make, knowing instinctively that we are on the side of the holy angels. I think that's what everybody would like in their heart of hearts.

Everybody interprets the Constitution, whether they know it or not. Those with some of the most impact are cops, even though we think of SCOTUS as having a lot of power. It ain't SCOTUS who arrested Kyle. Trying to go the same route and excuse the behavior or those arresting people they know acted in self defense, such as Kyle, while ignoring all the hell unleashed by those on the other side grows tiresome.

Elections indeed do have consequences. I never said differently.

The bottom line here is, there's gonna need to be some new, more twisted and byzantine explanations generated for the latest go-rounds of cops arresting good folks and ignoring the bad. More and more people are seeing this. I know we all have to wait for every last kernel of investigative work to be done...maybe ten years, but...

There are no bad cops.

Only bad elected and appointed officials.

The sooner every American learns to grasp this, the quicker we can return to normalcy.

I haven’t had a ticket since the 60’s. I wouldn’t expect to get a ticket for going 7 mph over the speed limit, just a warning. I see no reason for that.

bullshit. That said, no-knock warrants should be limited to very, VERY special circumstances, like for example the groind who just shot the two sheriffs in LA, if they find where he's hiding, the "no knock" warrant should be served on the nose of an RPG...

Spoken like a true Iron Curtain "Slav"....

your words: "until I moved into feral negro territory." (you moved to a "place")

Definition of "Geography":

( my bold emphasis ) https://www.britannica.com/science/geography

That's how I sussed out geography.

The relationships between the environment and its people has a big part in the determination of them being feral or not. White, black, brown, red or "yellow"

And yes, as a minor you didn't have much choice as to the geographical environment your parents moved you to. Had they moved you to an area with a high percentage of rich folks, or even middle class folks, there would likely have been way fewer feral folks of any color.

One does not find as much "white trash" in Bel-Aire as one does in the Blue Bell trailer park on the outskirts of town.

Policy based on the assumption that a decent income will likely reduce crime (and feralness) is good policy.

Culture affects those policies though. Folks raised in a criminal lifestyle are way more likely to be "feral" than those raised in a hard working law abiding culture. Holds true across races. And cultural geography has a big impact.

[quote=MontanaMan]By any standard, & taken on the whole, the problems in this country stem far more from blacks that don't think that they should be subject to any laws, than from any "bad" cops or selective enforcement.

In that respect, 13% of the population comprises more than half the crimes committed & that is exactly the problem. Which half the country doesn't want to either face up to nor solve.

And there is no one to blame for that except the blacks, as there is no one able to solve those problems but the blacks................but they can't & they won't.

Anyone who sincerely believes that cops & law enforcement are THE problem have serious issues that need resolution.






MM hits the nail right on the head. Plain and simple.

Plus 1

It has been my experience that the closer you jam people together, the more trouble you'll have. I live out in the country. We have worthless folks, probably about the same percentage wise as anywhere else. Still, everybody has some personal space, so there are few problems. Put everybody in my county on a 10 acre lot and there will be trouble. This is my theory as to why big cities suck so bad.

You want to see real trouble? Lock a bunch of women in a small room for a while.

People need space.

Ask any cop you don't hate that has kids and ask them if they would encourage their kids into that line of work. Then ask them if they would've gotten the same advice.

If it's bad now, with heavy handed or asswhole cops, like you said give it 10-20 years. Once the new hires promote up it's going to be bad beyond belief.
[/quote]
I have no reason to argue. I believe your assessment is correct.

gregg,

I'd have to agree with you.

I think even the experiments with rats show the same results.

But, then there's Japan, and while they have crime, it's also not at the level of our cities.

I can tell you one thing for sure though. If I never have to live in a crowded area again I'll be a happy man. I still have to go to them every once in awhile, relatives you know. And doctors and such.