Fooling yourself?

“God is not a genie in a bottle “ ...

Yes, no fooling.

I’m gonna miss MacArthur when he’s no longer with us.

Sit on a pew for 70 years thinking youre saved, no fruit, never shared Christ with anyone.

Just get a turquoise bolo tie and move to New Mexico be the dead wood that you are. Rot in the sticks and be cast into the fire

I suppose i am. Grew up always believing.
Dont push it though.
But if somebody asks or seeks ill point em in the right direction.

Do understand those new to The Lord may be a bit excited or even pushy and may have errors in their understanding.

Thats OK.

But when the town whore and druggy come up and claim to know it all and try to save me, wont leave my doorstep, yeah......i find that offensive.

Had an old timer that was pretty wild until a few yrs back, claim i wasny saved due to some colorful language i used. Told him ive been right way longer than he has and for him to not be judgemental, esp when it was over minor things.

Dont assume, ask.

It seems as though a lot of fundy dumbasses get rather uppity and condemn others for the crap they are doing.

People suck, religion doesnt change it imho.

As United Methodists, we are instructed to go forth, and share the Gospel/Good news.

Even to folks that don't want to hear it?

On this forum, just don't click.

I am, yes. Southern Baptist

2 Corinthians speaks as to how in Christ we are made new. I really hope that those who knew me here and the things I used to post as opposed to the person see the difference between now & then

Here is a message from our pastor directed partly to recent hi-Skool grads regarding being saved and Gods truth:

https://northsidebc.org/sermons?sap...NnBmP2JyYW5kaW5nPXRydWUmZW1iZWQ9dHJ1ZQ==

I like to keep, "IT", simple.

It's the lucky ones that realize they need help.

Yes, by the blood!

Amazing grace!

g

Pretty sure MacArthur is a strong Calvinist and believes in the TULIP concept. Irresistible grace. I'm not even sure why he would ask such a question since it is not accomplished by choice according to the reformed TULIP position.

Yes, I'm saved, not by works though.

Yes, I've accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

Amen!!!

There's a god. I am a firm believer. saved? I was Baptized, that was 45 years ago. I've been around the world in both directions more than a few times. 16 countries last count. I've been exposed to Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Christianity (more than 1 denomination) and a little Taoism, I'm not so sure Christianity got it exactly correct. Humans have been worshipping "something" for 10,000 or more years (depending on who you ask, because before writing it's hard to tell).

Christianity is roughly 2000 years old. hmmm. the Jews tell a good story, gotta give them that much.

I believe that Jesus died for my sin and rose from the dead. I have no doubts whatsoever. And for me, following Jesus has as much or more to do with this life as it does the next.

The Bible Way to Heaven

I'm always open to questions or discussion on the topic, on the air or PM.

☕ 🙂 👍

I figure my odds are fine.........probably some others who think otherwise may not make the cut.

As United Methodists are you familiar with what the Book of Discipline says about gun control?

Yes but I'm a work in progress.

Wooo!!

Tell em Wabi

LOL

Nope...

Beyond redemption

And get rid of guns and support the W C of Churches and support bringing Muzzy heathens to the US and bend over for Satan accepting his deal on the 401.3b and support taxation and govt tyranny, and condem Reagan for the little Granada action, and support Castro in his efforts to save Cuba, and....

None are beyond that, i think.

You don't know me as well as you might think.

Jag, it's 501 C3.

Saved from what????

I was. Grew up Wednesday evening, Sunday Morning, Sunday evening at church til I was 18. Truly believed, as only a naive child with no life experiences to draw from and a charmed family life can believe. Then I turned 18, left home, traveled, experienced the world through open eyes. It took probably 10 years to admit to myself, much less anyone else, that I’d lost my faith, completely. Funny enough, mostly because of fear of heavenly reprisal.
As cynical as I’ve became, I don’t possibly see how I could return to a life of blind faith. I find death bed conversions ridiculous.

Funny part is I actually have a “spiritual” side, just can’t commit to believing any one take on it.

The advantage of being saved is ???????????????

[quote=luv2safari]Nope...

Beyond redemption

[/quote

As long as your are willing to ask for forgiveness, He will forgive you if you are sincere .

Yes, my sins are forgiven and placed at the feet of Jesus Christ.., Our Lord in Heaven.

A my doctor said about my Heart, event, "It's the lucky ones that have symptoms".

Some of us need to hit a low point in our life that guides us to accept, Our Savior.
. Be Born Again.

I wasn't raised in a Christian home. I came to faith later on in life. I spent a whole career working on the greatest messes I could ever imagine. The most horrific stuff all
the time. Everyday in front of me, the most shattered of all of life, the greatest display of depravity and iniquity and overall brokenness and awfulness everyday in front of me, back to back, stacked on top of each other. My walk with Jesus has been gradual. And struggles have constantly come and gone. But I strive to stay focused on Jesus and follow Him.

The terms Saved and Salvation in many Bible contexts refers to deliverance from a destiny of hell.
Heaven and the renewed paradise on earth, after Christ sends His judgement / "wrath" upon the Satanically controlled world, will be the destiny of those who believe on Him now.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
* Jesus
John 3:17-18

Have no idea what your sins are, or were. Just know the power of God’s grace. I doubt he views your sins as any worse than mine. He doesn’t grade on a curve. He uses a cross.

If God gave me free will and I spent my days exercising this will by proving I don't want to be saved, or go to heaven, or whatever....

Then why would He override the sum of my choices to save me against my true desires just because my frivolous, emotional, lying lips said some magic bullshit that some of you say will get me saved.

I'm calling bullshit on that concept. Actions speak louder than words and I'm sick of seeing so called Christians talk the talk without doing their level best to walk the walk.

Jesus called these people hypocrites and made it clear they wouldn't get "saved."

If you say you are saved, are you guilty of passing judgement?

Scripture, please.

HE did say that if one didnt want to go to Heaven they wouldnt.

The only faith you've "lost" is that in people in general. This leaves faith "taught" by people in question. There are a lot of nutcases, shysters and investers involved in the God business.

The only people who need them are those who actually have no faith.

No one is beyond the saving Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I learned to save myself, swim or paddle across the current and don't fight it.

hallelujah...



mike r

Interesting how some religious denominations put huge emphasis on the need to be saved and others hardly even mention it.

God bless.
Amen.

Many are lost to satan after leaving home and attending college. There are several ways folks are led to eat from the tree of knowledge.

Eve believed in God. She knew HIM, but she couldnt obey Him who loved her and made her in his image, because she was a woman, and HE was a Him.

Yes. Jesus is Lord.

He won’t save you against your will. He’s offered the gift but it is up to you to accept. He will not be deceived by words. He knows your heart.

I agree that actions do speak loudly. True, we are saved by faith and not by works. Still, once one confesses that Christ is Lord, it SHOULD show in one’s life. Jesus said to love God with all your heart, mind, body and strength. Also, to love your neighbor as yourself. If we did more of that, we’d look a lot better to those “on the fence”. Best wishes in your walk.

I had a guy in an airport tell me one time if I sat and read the back of a card he had with him I'd go to heaven no matter what I did in the future.

I asked him if Hitler read that card once does that mean he's saved? Didn't really get an answer but I was really interested. He said the only way to be saved was to read it.

I then asked him if everyone who had ever lived had a chance to read it and he said of course not. I then said that doesn't sound very fair. He then got pissed and left. I should of just told him I was LDS. That really makes their heads spin.

Bb

Who is “saved” will only be determined at God’s Judgment, according to the Bible. Folks can quote their favorite Bible version “proof texts” till the cows come home, but God says in His Scriptures that ALL people will be “judged by their actions”; not whether they “believe” in something, or attend “church” or “tithe” regularly. If I remember correctly, Jesus says at least 7 times in the book of Revelation ALONE, that “I will judge you according to your ACTIONS”. That tells me that all the fake-azz “Christians” that pretend, are self-righteous, and are hypocrites are gonna face a reckoning they will not enjoy. On the flip-side, many of GOOD, honest, caring and generous people that are not pretenders will be rewarded. I’m sure now I will get verbally assaulted by the “saved” crowd

If a God of Love, by definition and nature of love, everyone is saved.

Character flaws, sociopaths, etc, are generally either genetic, shaped by an interaction of both, environment and genes.

Motivated by love, an omniscient/omnipotent God could easily repair the most broken of all individuals.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.

Even the sins of this wretch have been washed clean by the blood of the Lamb.

That is true.

Says a lot about how institutions can become self perpetuating, ignoring their original reason for existence.

The spreading of the good news of the grace of God in Christ is the reason the Church exists. Some have forgotten that and live on like a country club or do-gooders association like Rotary.

Others, in sundry ways and styles, still boldly proclaim that offensive message that in spite of our sin God has been working throughout history to reconcile for Himself a people through the sacrifice of His Son.

That’s after over 2,000 years. Pretty amazing.

God is good.

Let the redeemed of the Lord say so.
Psalm 107:2


So!

Yes, I was almost drowned in a pond by a bible thumper. Got a lot of grief for fighting and biting his hand when he launched into a mini sermon while he held me under. Gave a lot of grief years later when I went to an uptown church that had the little swimming pool behind the pulpit. Those kids barely got wet.

I would suggest that whatever a man professes, his actions on a day to day basis reflect what he truly believes… where he places his trust, that is.

I don’t understand what argument you’re anticipating but there is a very real sense in which what you say, for the reasons I mention above, isn’t untrue.

Now I’d also add that there are a whole lot of faithful folks who say they believe and then show it by attendance to worship of God weekly or more, and show it by tithing as well as in many other ways. That’s just more of the same demonstration of what true faith can do to a person.

Jag,
Long way from attending college. I attended the school of hard knocks, and took my fair share.

No verbal assault. Just a disagreement. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Being good, generous, etc, by human standards, won’t get it done. Jesus was clear that faith in him is the only way. I don’t think that is being self righteous. On my own I’d get what I deserved. It wouldn’t be pretty. It’s only through faith in Christ that I’ll be saved. His righteousness, not mine will carry the day.

I’m getting a mental picture of a young Huckleberry Finn at a revival. Glad to hear you survived to tell the tale!

I do not think that God wants people to be unsure about their salvation. John 3:16 is the Gospel in a nutshell. It’s a pledge...a ‘title deed’...concerning people’s salvation. Period. No ‘if’s’ or ‘and’s’ or ‘but’s.’

John did say that he had “written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God.”

All of us must stand in judgment before God...our sins will either be covered by the Blood of the Atonement...or they won’t.

Romans 10:9
New King James Version
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

This is all it takes.

And don't tell me differently. God had Paul put it in Romans and God does not lie.

If you want to argue with someone, argue with God if your foolish enough to do so. lol

I listened to the whole piece. I agree with a lot of what he says.

I would, however, caution about sitting back judging other's Christianity. I know, we're not to be ignorant about these matters, as Paul urges. So, Spiritual discernmnt is essential.

I don't know if he was leaning towards Calvinism or if he's more in the Arminian camp. He was pretty subtle about predestination if that's where he's coming from.

As we enter into a different era as Christians, we don't know what's coming our way. Our country is going thru a real change and I don't know if it's coming back from what we had.

Bottom line, Christ died for you, will you die for him? If things get really tough, will we Christians stand like the martyrs of old? I'm not sure how many calling themselves Christians today are there.

To me that's the bottom line. That one may take some soul searching. We've had faith in our Christian nation. What if we lose it? Where will most Christians find themselves then...?

What say you, as Bill O'Reilly would ask?

DF

You pose a good question. It would be easy to say that I will resist the crowd that turns their back on God if our free nation falls. I feel to have what it takes to do that I need to exercise the strength now. If not I won't have it when the time comes. Unwavering faith in God is the only way and it won't be popular.

It's all crap.


Live your life accordingly. There ain't no golden streets awaiting.

By God's grace absolutely!!

I got to sit in one of his sermons in Little Rock back in 1989. It was a good experience.

Everybody that is on earth to experience that of which Revelation speaks of is already condemned to Hell. They are not in the Lamb's Book of Life that those who will be raptured are. Those who have salvation by the Grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross have been cleansed of all sin and there is no need for Judgement for them.

There are going to be two different judgements and its important to be able to understand the difference when you hear people cherry picking verses to make their point.

The "Great white throne judgement" is where those who have rejected Christ's payment for their sins get to pay for their sins themselves via a one way ticket to the lake of fire.

The "Judgement seat of Christ" is the one where believers get judged and rewarded "for their actions". We might get spanked pretty good by the Master for some of our foolishness but we won't be going to hell.

The latter might not be a picnic but it beats the former by infinity.

You're close but you leave out having a belief in both God and His Son, Jesus, Who gave Himself as the final sacrifice on the Cross for your sins. That is all God asks of you and if you can acknowledge that as the truth, you will be saved, regardless of your sins.

Hopefully we will be saved by a rapture before the gallows comes. But if not, I will never forsake the Lord and my salvation. I will die gladly for Him and hope my kids have the same fortitude. What else is there to do?

THIS topic is why some hate those we post.
It's not the person that they hate...... it's the gospel.

Guys,
Those who think that you are working your acceptance to heaven...

Listen up, because we were young and now are old. Im afraid that some of you are locking the door to the kindness of God. I don't want you to harden your hearts to where you don't want to listen to what God said, so He decides to not speak to you anymore.
Some say it's never too late. It's way past bedtime writing this and too late for me to get a good night sleep.
For some of you it will eventually be too late for you to get saved. Don't let that happen. Read this three or ten times until it sinks in. There are a lot of warnings about hardening the heart and I ask that you consider the following.
(God's Word highlighted.)

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
Galatians 1

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:".
I Corinthians 15:1-4

This action by THE Savior interferes with the "good deeds/ works" of the self righteous who look in the mirror to say, "hey good lookin', I can save myself too!"

The law is a curse to those of you who want to be judged by the law. God WILL judge you according to that standard of perfection IF YOU wish. Yes, He will judge you according to those filthy rags you call keeping the law . You don't know how to keep the law.
You will be judged and come out lacking in obedience by lots. How many times have you sinned?

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
James 2:10

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."
That FAITH BTW is in Jesus Christ alone, NOT Jesus + __________.

This is WHY YOU need FORGIVENESS.
You already failed the test, just as all of us have sinned and come short of the glory of God. In your youth you failed and NOW you think that as an old man you get a retake until you get it right? You are not right or righteousness. Isaiah tells me about me, himself AND you...

" But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

Do you think that you are better than me?
Maybe true. We might have such a pile of filthy rags that it would fill a land fill. What can you buy with THAT???
How does that stack up to the Jesus Who was lifted up high upon the cross? Now, He is worthy of thanks, NOT your trailer full of baby diapers. Those rags are your works. They have no place when it comes to salvation.
God's forgiveness based solely upon His Son's sacrifice is grace.

It's either works OR grace.
It can't be both.

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
Romans 11:6

Grace = God's kindness to you based NOT on your behavior, but rather judgement upon His Son through His sacrifice.

Works = Anything that man tries to do to make himself "right with God." Ie. Baptism, golden rule, repentance from sins, virtues like honesty, trying to keep the laws of God. Those things have a place in the Word, but NOT for salvation.

That's why you need forgiveness through faith in the only Savior.

What do you believe guys?

If you believe that God requires your works instead of His only begotten Son's sacrifice, then read this post again.
However, If you believe that Jesus was punished for all of your sins including those in the future, then tell God this,

"Dear God,

I already failed and am condemned to hell.
I cannot work my way to heaven.
You don't want my dirty rags of good deeds.
According to Your promises, if I put my trust in Your Son, I will be saved. I want that Lord.
Please save me from hell and take me to heaven when I die. Jesus died having paid for all sins and rose again. I believe this to be completely true. Thank you for saving me.

Amen

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Please PM if you prayed this.
Good night

Sleepy camper

Faith is a trivial reason for the penalty of eternal damnation.

Thanks for your input. And Thanks for actually watching the video.

When I viewed the video, I saw it as more of a call for self reflection rather than a call out video .

I understand your reasoning. Unfortunately, it’s not by YOUR reasoning you are saved. For whatever reason, God decided to save men by a different way. You have to remember this is His creation, not ours. That means we have to play by His rules, not ours.

Proverbs 14:12 says
“There is a way that seems right to a man,
but it’s end leads to death”

Personally, I hate the word faith.
But the Lord says that
“the righteous will live by faith”, and
“without faith, it’s impossible to please Him.”

So like you, I have to play by His rules.

God is a God of love but he is also a God of Justice who hates evil/wrongdoing. The "genetic flaw" with humanity is called sin. We all have it. Its the reason the answer to the question of "can't we all just get along" is NO. Most of us through socialization and learned self control manage to stay out of jail but if we are honest with ourselves we have all "fallen short" in a big way. You can see this in little kids and the "parenting" process. You don't have to teach them to lie, you have to teach them to tell the truth. You don't have to teach them to steal, you have to teach them to share.

If God just "fixed it" there would be no accountability on our part. His solution, motivated by love, was to take on humanity in the form of a Jewish carpenter turned rabbi and take upon himself his judgement for humanity's sins. He made the rules, we broke them, but he satisfied justice by paying the penalty that he himself decreed we had coming.

So, "Christ died for the sins of the whole world". Everyone is not saved but everyone certainly can be. But you have to acknowledge, believe, ie "put faith in" what he did, the first step being acknowledging that you are a "sinner".....which should be obvious. Then, "the most broken of individuals are repaired". I've seen it.

Some see this as "good news". Others take offense saying to themselves, hey I'm really not that bad, I am actually a "good person".....God has no right to punish me when he forgives a "worse person" who believes. It doesn't matter. An analogy from the business world. Doesn't make any difference if you have a $30,000 mortgage or a $3,000,000 mortgage, if you miss enough payments, the bank is gonna foreclose on your house and kick you to the curb. Someone comes along, sees that you are broke and can't make the payments, and gives you the money to pay the whole thing off. If you take his check, tear it up and tell him to get lost because "you got this", what happens? The debt is still there, you are still broke, and the house is about to be taken. This doesn't make the man who offered to bail you out any less "loving" it just makes you a fool.

True.....His rules.
We broke so many of them that we can't remember half. That's sin.
We cannot UNdo sin. There's no way.
God doesn't pardon a sinner on the basis of degrees or good works either.
That's why he offered His sinless, perfect Son as the substitute, the only acceptable sacrifice for our sins.

Faith (believe) is the absence of works.
It takes no effort or goodness on our part.
It is a choice to receive the gift purchased already of everlasting life.

Faith/ believe upon Christ = forgiveness

This is why faith should appeal to us. It's the only way to the Father through the Son .


"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

John 14:6

Guess how many times the word believe is used in this gospel of John?

Is it a matter of my reasoning? I would say it's a matter of justice. A lack of conviction or faith is hardly an example of evil.

Even in the secular world the lack of conviction is a horrible thing and has everything to do with evil. It's why some of the most awful crimes are committed.

Being ruled by fear would the exact interpretation of sin.................missing the mark.

fear usually is a sin, however it's one of many.

I John 3:4,5

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin."

Faith is not trivial at all except to the obstinate who are not willing to get some. It's a very simple thing and the only one God demands.

Faith is the tiny thing that obtains the largest and richest blessing to mankind. But it is true there is no other way to obtain that rich blessing. Quit fighting God, surrender to Him, and Love Him. He already Loves you.

Happy_Camper,

I am very late to this. I am curious, did you watch the whole video? What do you think about it?

What about Faith in Christ PLUS?

Here's a decent explanation for basic Bible understanding.

Good post keith_dunlap.

Good people don't go to heaven and bad people don't go to hell. Forgiven people go to heaven. Unforgiven people go to hell. I think hell ultimately is to be eternally separated from God...and Heaven ultimately is to be eternally with Him.

I think all people will be resurrected and therefore saved from physical death through Christ. Whether or not they are saved from spiritual death depends on their choices and the making and keeping of covenants and repentance. That's the one that decides where they go after they're resurrected.

Seems that some equate being resurrected as being saved. I think we will be held accountable for how we live. No accountability seems like a democrat progressive idea to me.

I worked with a born again years ago who was cheating on his wife with 2 different married women at work and a single 19 year old girl. It didn't matter though because he was saved already. He was a liar, a thief, and an adulterer but didn't like me because of my religion and talked crap about it all the time. I don't judge those that share his beliefs based on him but he as an individual was a total pos and didn't care because he was saved no matter what.

I think our own shame could separate us from Christ but this guy had no Shane so maybe he's right.

Bb

Am I saved?

Yes I am, and not because I say so.

The Lord Jesus Christ said so.

He that hath the Son of God hath everlasting life.

HE is my hope and my life. He gave me HIS righteousness. HE took the punishment for my Sin.

Amen! Thank you Jesus.

The Romans 10:9-10 video is a good one, he makes some good points. Salvation by faith and faith alone.

But doesn’t it say that the demons believe and tremble? They know and they tremble. Now, they don’t have faith, just a knowledge of their ultimate fate. They don’t receive, even though they believe. So, from that one could surmise that knowledge alone isn’t saving faith.

One has to believe and receive. James teaches that faith without works is dead. His meaning about works is corresponding action. Not works leading to salvation but a result thereof.

If you have Jesus in your heart it’s gonna show. You don’t have to go around blabbing it, as he noted in certain hostile societies, but it’ll show.

Let your light shine. Speak when the Spirit gives the unction, not so much from the natural.

DF

I am. I hope and pray all of you guys can say the same before it’s too late.

Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Ro 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I've done that. We have his promise. There are many in the churches and in the world who hear the word but keep trying to work their way into heaven without the belief and faith. They will fail.

Wouldn’t a place filled with Christians be the opposite of heaven?

All you have to do to be saved is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and confess your faith in Jesus as your Savior (Romans 10:9)

Salvation is receiving, and the sinner who believes on Jesus (apart from all self-righteousness) will be saved and go to heaven. The only way to heaven is through Jesus, and He paid the price for our sins. Salvation isn’t hard, as Jesus made it easy for us.

Eternal life is a free gift of grace (Romans 5:15; 6:23). It is freely offered (Romans 10:13) and freely received (Revelation 22:17).

What more could anybody ever want? Jesus is the way, our hope, our reality, our everything when we are saved. He is all we need. I am so grateful for the wonderful free gift of grace.

Lordship Salvation = Works Salvation

Or. Definitely Or....

Realreal,

This was posted late at night in response to those who believe they live such a righteous life that God owes eternal life to them. Please excuse the blunt attitude that came across, but some guys need that. All the same, it's true and backed up by God's Word. Glad you have a question "or" about that. Here's the following to study out.


"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:".
I Corinthians 15:1-4

This action by THE Savior interferes with the "good deeds/ works" of the self righteous who look in the mirror to say, "hey good lookin', I can save myself too!"

The law is a curse to those of you who want to be judged by the law. God WILL judge you according to that standard of perfection IF YOU wish. Yes, He will judge you according to those filthy rags you call keeping the law . You don't know how to keep the law.
You will be judged and come out lacking in obedience by lots. How many times have you sinned?

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
James 2:10

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."
That FAITH BTW is in Jesus Christ alone, NOT Jesus + __________.

This is WHY YOU need FORGIVENESS.
You already failed the test, just as all of us have sinned and come short of the glory of God. In your youth you failed and NOW you think that as an old man you get a retake until you get it right? You are not right or righteousness. Isaiah tells me about me, himself AND you...

" But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

Do you think that you are better than me?
Maybe true. We might have such a pile of filthy rags that it would fill a land fill. What can you buy with THAT???
How does that stack up to the Jesus Who was lifted up high upon the cross? Now, He is worthy of thanks, NOT your trailer full of baby diapers. Those rags are your works. They have no place when it comes to salvation.
God's forgiveness based solely upon His Son's sacrifice is grace.

It's either works OR grace.
It can't be both.

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
Romans 11:6

Grace = God's kindness to you based NOT on your behavior, but rather judgement upon His Son through His sacrifice.

Works = Anything that man tries to do to make himself "right with God." Ie. Baptism, golden rule, repentance from sins, virtues like honesty, trying to keep the laws of God. Those things have a place in the Word, but NOT for salvation.

That's why you need forgiveness through faith in the only Savior.

What do you believe guys?

If you believe that God requires your works instead of His only begotten Son's sacrifice, then read this post again.
However, If you believe that Jesus was punished for all of your sins including those in the future, then tell God this,

"Dear God,

I already failed and am condemned to hell.
I cannot work my way to heaven.
You don't want my dirty rags of good deeds.
According to Your promises, if I put my trust in Your Son, I will be saved. I want that Lord.
Please save me from hell and take me to heaven when I die. Jesus died having paid for all sins and rose again. I believe this to be completely true. Thank you for saving me.

Amen

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Please PM if you prayed this.

Happy Camper

PS:. Also check out the links in my signature.

If you mean being "saved" means you're going to heaven, and not being "saved" means you're going to hell, then the answer is no.

That's the hardest thing for most people to see BuckHaggard. Even Jesus talked about that.
It's your "lucky" day.
Just go to my previous post and read it a couple or more times after asking the Lord for understanding. That's what I did and never regretted it since. I'm quite grateful really and just passing it forward. I'll check later if you have any questions. PM if you want.

Later

Peter had been a fully devoted, lifelong adherent of the Mosaic Law, and even he pointed out that he and all of the other Jews (who had also been fully devoted, lifelong adherents of the Mosaic Law) who were alive at that time, and all of their Jewish forefathers before them (who had also been fully devoted, lifelong adherents of the Mosaic Law), had FAILED to keep the Mosaic Law. He said it was a yoke on their necks that NONE of them had been able to bear. And then he (Peter) clearly said that Jews and non-Jews were saved through the GRACE of the Jesus. Period.

Do proponents of adherence to the Mosaic Law nowadays really think that they are better at, and more capable of, keeping the Law than ALL of those who came before them...including Jesus’ own Apostles themselves...?

That's what all the other religions are saying. Will the real god please stand up.

I’m going to go out on a limb and say you didn’t watch the video.....

Justified conviction requires evidence. Reasonable atheists are not convinced in the existence of the god of the bible for the same reasons they are not convinced in the existence of the gods of other religion, or the many different versions of what we call 'God' - insufficient evidence.

Faith is a belief held without sufficient evidence. Muslim's, Hindus, Jews, Christian's,etc, all base their beliefs, their theology, on faith, yet cannot agree on the fundamentals. Which makes faith a poor means of sorting fact from fiction.

To have that Peace that passes understanding, we can’t stay stuck in our understanding.

To be limited by one’s understanding is to miss things Eternal.

The universe is bigger than our limited perspective. Eternal is infinitely bigger than temporal.

Scripture is not subject to what we think; it is the Word of God. It’s what He thinks and has said. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts

Fulfilled prophecy, eye witness accounts, miracles, lives transformed are all Biblical accounts of God at work.

“If I don’t understand it it can’t be” is short sighted and foolish. The world doesn’t revolve around our understanding or lack there of. Never has, never will.

DF

saved ? we can all be saved but 1st you must believe in our dear LORD . God has and does do miracles every day ,but we could use a little help / miracle in the White House ?

That’s not true. And Christians don’t rely on “blind” faith.
There is non biblical evidence that a Jew named Jesus, lived when the Bible said he did. Was crucified by the Romans, as the Bible says he was. And there were many witnesses to his miracles and resurrection, as the Bible says.

Now you can choose not to believe he was God. You can choose to dismiss the claims about him. But most scholars admit (including atheists) , Jesus did exist.

I’ll go out on a limb and say most people have invested the same amount of effort to investigate Jesus, as they have to their own world view.

Well, God does not tolerate/allow sin in heaven, but indeed Christians do go to heaven and rest in His presence.

Yes, Christians do sin…..but do not carry that sin or sin issue with them to heaven and into the presence of God.

JeffP,

DBT presents as being “blind” and seems to think that everybody is blind like him. This is limiting for him.

He cannot apprehend the idea that God, through the Holy Spirit, does indeed provide truth and evidence and hence, there really is no such thing as blind faith in a Christian’s life.

But…..he is blind and cannot see….. but the there us the possibility that he simply refuses to open his eyes.

IDK

I personally have been thru enough and experienced enough and seen enough for my belief in my Father and His Son and His Spirit to be very grounded in what He and His word reads, say, and states.
A personal experience of my own is that for myself to finally except His gift of grace
I had to open both hands. I kept trying to accept it with one hand and not let go of the baggage in the other
but it would never work. He works on/with me e v e r y d a y. It is a relationship which I try to reiterate to my boys, family and friends. I still stumble but I stumble less and less. With this relationship it makes you full and it gives you understanding.
If you decide to let Christ in your house, you might not like it at first because he starts rearranging your furniture and stuff but I will tell you from first hand experience, it's Ok because He knows where your furniture and stuff belongs better than you do...
One day, Christ will be opening His door and he wont be saying you Baptist over here, you Catholics over here, you Jews over there....he will be saying hey EVERYONE, glad you are here! All of yall who took a risk on Me, and accepted Me, come on in.

Busted. I did not watch it, but I was raised a Baptist, and that was the lesson I was taught.

Yes!

Of course it's true. The very nature of faith is to believe without sufficient evidence, We have no first-hand witness accounts of the events described in the Gospels. We have anonymous authors writing long after the described events telling us that there were witnesses.

The ancients were not reliable witnesses when it comes to supposedly supernatural events, they saw signs, miracles and wonders in mundane events, embellishing and weaving stories to suit.

Jesus was not the only 'miracle worker' during that period, there were many.

Not at all. That kind of remark is used as a means of defense and dismissal. A remark that aims at discrediting the poster in order to avoid dealing with the issues that are being pointed.

We are only arbitrators of what constitutes “suffice evidence “ for ourselves. You , or I don’t speak for anyone else .

Yep, “sufficient evidence” for one regarding these matters may or may not be “sufficient evidence” for another. It’s clearly highly individualized.

Yes I am

That's one possibility, or what he said could be true.

I've met many atheists who believe with out "sufficient evidence" as well. It's very common situation in fact.

The truth is that modern atheists redefine evidence to fit their needs. The only possible evidence modern atheists accept is empirical evidence, which demands repeatability. It's obvious that empirical evidence is not the sole source of truth.

Was born again in 2010. I'm a different person after the fact. I'm still not a good person, & no better than anyone else. My righteousness comes from Christ, not from my works. Still battle the flesh when I choose that route, but I'm not bound to do so anymore. Haven't attended church in a while even before plandemic. I study my Bible at home. Not opposed to attending church, but I'll never join another one. I know what I deserve, & I know what Jesus has provided. I'm thankful.

A changed life is the evidence scoffers don’t want to accept but it is the acid test, the bottom line of what redemption is all about. And that is objective, hard evidence to those with minds open enough to see the obvious. The spiritually blind have issues seeing the Light.

DF

Amen! What a person believes is irrelevant. What matters is the Truth.

Psalm: 14:1 English Standard Version
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good

The Mosaic covenant was not about salvation. It was a civil covenant. The Abrahamic covenant was and remains the covenant of salvation. The covenants can’t be intermingled. The misunderstanding is probably the biggest impediment to proper understanding of OT text and keeps people from seeing what Christ meant when He said that the law and prophets were about Him.

Abraham believed God & it was imputed ( counted) unto him for righteousness. It's always been by faith. God doesn't change.

Yep. This is what separates traditional Christianity all the way back to Adam and Eve from all other religions and all spin off religions that claim to be Christian. Imputation (and justification).

Speaking for myself I couldn't understand these things until I was born again. Without the Holy spirit my understanding was darkened. Unsaved folks get angry & can't understand scripture, because they lack the Spirit.

The Abrahamic covenant predated the Mosiac covenant and it for sure foretold Jesus. Study that one, the divided animals, the blood, God himself waking between the halves. Ever wonder why the dove and the pigeon were NOT divided? The Dove represented the Holy Spirit, the pigeon, the Word of God, neither of which is divisible.

The Mosaic Covenant was the Law which man could not keep, thus the need for Jesus and redemption from the curse of the law. So it was more than just a civil code, although civil order was outlined. Except, no one could keep the letter of the law, which was all or nothing.

Judaism reportedly holds the Mosaic Covenant as more important than the Abrahamic Convenant, probably because of the rules which they seem to cherish. The Mosaic Covenant, a thousand years after the Abrahamic Covenant, was more of a codification and extension of the original than a separate agreement.

The entire OT points to the Cross.

DF

And the unseen gift of the bloody cross realized in the NT points to Salvation and Grace by Faith alone and His eminent return.
Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!

Thanks Dirtfarmer. I never thought about why the birds were not divided!

This narrative is a perfect example of something most people just read around and through not really knowing what was going on because we are so far removed from ancient times and Bedouin culture.........but If you learn about it, it is an absolute gold mine which in turn unlocks things in many of Paul's writings, particularly the book of Hebrews. An example of why even though John 3:16 alone can get you saved its still worthwhile to go "treasure hunting" IMO.

Only reason I have a clue is my Dad used to have a book by EW Kenyon entitled "The Blood Covenant" that I read years ago.

Not to start a food fight, but if you understand this even a little bit, you won't give Preterism and replacement theology another thought.

Good truth there DF.
One thing I would like to study out more is the significance of the pigeons. It was my understanding that the doves and / or pigeons could be used interchangeably.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Leviticus-12-4_12-7/

Leviticus 12
"And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest:"

I may be wrong, so I'm not trying to split hairs. I really would like to study the reference to the Word of God representation if you can recall that passage. If you run across it, please post it here or PM for my study.

Thank you,

HC

Dirtfarmer

I should clarify the post to which you responded. I should have emphasized that the Mosaic covenant was a specific covenant (there may be a better word than civil in this context) between God and national Israel. From what you said I believe that we agree that it was not a covenant that demonstrates how to be righteous and just before God. Rather, it demonstrated and still demonstrates man’s inability to keep the law.

Without understanding these messages from the OT the NT makes no sense and has no context. I grew up in a works righteousness denomination. I pity anyone who is still locked into a mode of trying to please God in order to be saved. If our redemption required the sacrifice of His perfect life our works aren’t gonna add a single thing. We are left with the idea of the free gift and our inability.

Ringman,

I listened to much of the video.
What do I think of it?
I thought it sounded like a truthful lecture as far as I listened. I skipped around some of the middle.
One thing that I have a problem with is what the author did not get into.
John McArthur is a very eloquent communicator.
Much of what I've heard him say is very true. I have one of his books on the gospel. After studying it and listening to some of his sermons, I found that he believes in a different gospel from the biblical one of salvation. He adds conditions to faith in Jesus' all sufficient sacrifice. One condition that comes to mind is the "turn from your sins " herasay.
This is no rebuke on the OP, since I don't even think he addressed that issue. I have no dispute with you or him..
This is a stern rebuke to a man who should certainly know better, Mr. John McArthur. He is a very polished cubic zirconia. Most find him hard to differentiate from the true diamond and true gospel. I can understand that when I was not aware of it for years.

It is a caution my friend that we are warned about .

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.9
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ."

Galatians 1

Ringman,

I'm interested in your thoughts on this too my friend.

"I believe, help my unbelief"!

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Romans 10

Fear not, believe only.

Of course you tell us that truly, as you just did.👍

I saved myself from the Church...Finally realized it was all bull-sheitt, and kicked Jesus to the curb. Now I scratch my head at people who want to live by crazy rules set down by a highly dysfunctional group of Jews 2k years ago.

The Bible is crazy easy to disprove if you just allow yourself to hear the truth.

Can't agree GunGeek Here are many hours of facts that can lead people to a conclusion exactly opposite of what you believe is correct.
If you are not too afraid to hear evidence to the contrary of what you believe please take time to listen to this presentation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szBTl3S24MY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoRSBGD7vb


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8GgrUposII

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSDb7iBTg70

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZqh12MKOcE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaS42TPOu0U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY0rj-TEx4o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xou0JGUYIjg >>> Q&A This one is the longest, and is outstanding for those that need answers.

These videos that will help to answer many of your questions, but may cause you to come up with others.


Note: Dr. Hovind got in trouble with the IRS. A railroad job too, and if you follow his defense you'd see that) but NONE OF HIS "CRIMINAL HISTORY" HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE INFO HE SHOWS IN HIS SEMINARS. So stooping to an ad hominem argument is best left to Dem/Comms and the liars in the media. For those that want to know; an ad hominem argument is a personal attack on someone's character or motive rather than an attempt to address the actual issue or evidence at hand. This type of personal attack fallacy is often witnessed in debates in courtrooms and politics as we saw and still see it used in what the Democrats/communists do every day.

If you haven't done so, study the difference between Rhema and Logos.

That scripture you refer to uses the Rhema word as in hearing the Word of God.

Rhema is the Word speaking to our spirit, not just words off a page. Logos is the recorded, written Scripture; Rhema is when the Word speaks directly to us.

So, as a professor once rather emphatically told a guy in class, "Son, you gotta take something to the book". Now, that was not in a spiritual setting, but the message applies. We have to have ears to hear, gotta take something to the book. To the natural man, this is just foolishness. I Cor 2:14.

DF

HC
Somebody steal your account?....

Dirt Farmer,

There's plenty of times the phrase that I paraphrase,
He who has ears to hear and eyes to see. I think we are in agreement.
Woobigoon made a general statement as I responded likewise. Without taking time right now for a doctrinal study, I agree that the willingness of the listener/ audience must be involved...ie " ears to hear."

The Holy Spirit to the lost is John 16:8....

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."

Faith / pistis can also grow with knowledge/ gnosis of the Word logos.

Are you wondering about the space balls reference?
It wasn't directed to you. I should have clicked the right response person.
It just came to mind when I read gun geek's last post.

Yes the video, it was untypical of you... lol

Bingo,cut to the chase.

No one disagrees. However there is a richness in The Word. You can drink milk, or chew meat....

I’m kind of like Patton. I want to make the evil die in their attempt at harming me. I value this body and life that God’s given me. I’m not going to martyr myself by allowing someone to kill me just to prove that I’m a good Christian.
I believe in protecting myself and those I can save from the evil in the world. Jesus did tell his disciples to have a sword and to sell their cloak to buy one if they didn’t already own one.

I hear ya. Can't say I disagree.

But, we gotta know who we are and whose we are.

That's not always easy, because even spiritual folks walk in the flesh from time to time.

But, come time to denounce our Lord, we can't choke or capitulate. We gotta stand up for Him as soldiers of the cross, as the old song goes.

In the mean time, I will protect myself and my family from those bent on doing evil.

DF

I agree that a dove or pigeon seemed to be suitable substitutes as lower cost sacrificial animals vs. a more expensive lamb. They seem to be interchangeable in that setting, as you point out.

The dove has long been a symbol for the Holy Spirit, the pigeon, as in messenger pigeon, can represent the Message or the Word.

DF

There are many people who are drawn to the simple message that God loves people so much that He sent Jesus, His own Son, to pave the way to a relationship with them. This simple message is freeing to them because they feel a need for, and understand grace. And they feel a need for, and understand forgiveness. And this simple message is freeing to them because they don’t hold the perspective or the value system or the way it is-ness that’s told in the story of ancient Israel.

And to assert that the salvation of these people is meaningless because they don’t have the “context” that the Old Testament provides is erroneous and sanctimonious (for lack of a better word) in my opinion.

Some people abide by a version of Christianity that relies on the Bible as the foundation of their faith. Other’s abide by a version of Christianity that relies on the event of Jesus’ resurrection as that foundation.

The Hebrew scriptures did not create Christianity. The Christian Bible did not create Christianity. Jesus’ resurrection created and launched Christianity.

I personally believe that Jesus’ New Covenant can stand on its own two nail-scarred, resurrected feet...and doesn’t ‘need’ to be propped up by the Hebrew scriptures. But I do think RJY66 made a good point above about “John 3:16” and “treasure hunting.” I agree with him on that perspective. As JeffP said above, “drink milk, or chew meat.” I agree with him on that perspective as well.

The issue here is HOW good we are. We're all sinners to some degree. Some, of course, are far worse than others but we all sin. God has set a standard on who gets into heaven and that standard is perfection - sinless. No one who ever lived has achieved that on his own. God sent Jesus to suffer our penalty and take away our sins so that we can all stand before God sinless and meet his standard.

Antlers

How did you get this

And to assert that the salvation of these people is meaningless because they don’t have the “context” that the Old Testament provides is erroneous and sanctimonious (for lack of a better word) in my opinion.


Out of anything that has been posted on this thread. I haven’t read any post that implies that in any way.

His grace acknowledges the full ramification of our sin but doesn’t condemn us.

I was reminded of the Holy Spirit reference like as a dove lighting upon Jesus at His baptism.

Now I see where you are coming from about the pigeons as in messenger pigeons. I've not heard that analogy before.

A joyful noise.

Nope, evidence is a body of information that anyone can see supports a given conclusion. Nobody argues over the existence of objective things because they have sufficient evidence.

If evidence is taken to be subjective, as some of you argue, then the existence of Brahman or Allah, etc, is just as well supported by 'evidence' as the God of Christianity. Clearly this is ridiculous.

It apears that believers tend to reject the 'evidence' that other believers claim supports their faith, but assume that their own 'evidence' is legitimate....which makes the concept of evidence utterly meaningless.

Evidence is not something that an individual wants it to be.

Yep, especially regarding these matters.

The Church isn’t connecting with much of our current culture. It’s possible that so many people, including a great many Christians, have misunderstood what Christianity truly is, and have lost sight of what Christianity originally was. The ethic of the early and accurate Christian faith is sorely lacking nowadays.

It’s possible that people aren’t rejecting Jesus and His movement as it truly is, but instead are rejecting a distorted view of what they ‘think’ it is, or has become. So much emphasis is placed by so many, including a great many Christians, on the orthodoxy itself, and on the “two thousand years of church history and doctrine,” instead of on the first-generation passion of what it meant to simply strive to be a fully devoted follower of Jesus. The first century approach to advancing the gospel modeled by Jesus and His apostles is very different from what we see today.

The gospel of grace is an irresistible message. But so many people resist it, resist Jesus, and snub the Church. It’s possible that the fault lies not with the gospel and simply following Jesus, but with a burdensome emphasis placed on orthodoxy and “two thousand years of church history and doctrine”...a great deal of which was simply and truly and clearly awful for people...and on a set of rules and regulations that have been added to the simple ethic that Jesus taught: “A new command I give you, love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all people will know that you are my followers, by how you love one another.” A lotta Christians are more embracing of orthodoxy and “two thousand years of church history and doctrine” than they are of the overriding simple ethic that Jesus taught. It’s an understandable turnoff to so many people.

“I’ll go out on a limb and say most people have invested the same amount of effort to investigate Jesus, as they have to their own world view.”
Some just have to make my point for me.

I especially liked “most reasonable atheists” don’t believe in the God of the Bible etc....
I guess it’s the unreasonable atheist that believe in God? Lol
Translation, people that agree with me are reasonable, others are not. The condescension of Christians is palpable

Or......

John 3:16

What you mention may be part of the problem but there may be some other things to consider and even go along with your statement. One is that the Bible tells us that there is going to be a great falling away. We really started seeing that in this nation in the 1960s. Also the church has so watered down the message and teachings of the Bible that it has lost it's way. An example of that is denominations that embrace same sex marriage and even perform the ceremony in the church. These same groups also ordain queers and pastors. They also embrace abortion. These are no longer an outreach of God to the lost souls but have joined them in their sin. God takes no part in this and that's one reason we see the decline of the influence the church once had. These places are the same as when Jesus called the Pharisees, whited sepulchers.

Yep. Simplicity.

Antlers makes some good points. Too many know the Bible, but don’t know the author.

And it was the spirit of religion that nailed the Lord to the cross. The Romans were just goaded into doing the dirty work.

The high priests and the religious establishment of the day pushed for the crucification. The spirit of religion is alive and active today just as in olden times. It’s up to us to discern what is of the Lord vs what is about the Lord. Those aren’t mutually inclusive, can actually be mutually exclusive.

Only the Spirit of the Lord, indwelling in us, can lead us to all truth. Paul tells us in a number of places in the NT to not be ignorant of such. Too many are deceived, walking in error. Check out Mat 7:21. Lord Lord, didn’t we.... Pretty sad

DF

"IT'S", so simple, and easy. A little child can do IT!

One huge problem is, a lot of good folks don't think they need saving.

A devout Catholic told me once, it was all about being a good guy.

Remember, the thief on the Cross.

A good answer when someone thinks things are just somehow gonna work themselves out regardless what they believe.

Tell them they can stand on speculation, you gonna stand on revelation.

DF

Insightful. Yep. But hey, they were the religious experts, they studied their religion for many years, and their beloved orthodoxy was all important to them. Agreed. Many think that God can only speak to themselves and others through the Bible. They supposedly have the Spirit of the Living God inside of them, yet they deny that God speaks to His followers separately, one on one today, rather than them getting all of their answers from what He told somebody else 2000 years ago.Agreed. Wholeheartedly.

For Rhema, one must be in the Spirit. Such a believer sees Jesus in the OT.

Legalistic types, operating solely in the natural can only see law, even in the NT.

He who has ears, let him hear.

DF

Do you think homosexuals were created in the image of God...? And do you think homosexuals have dignity and worth equal to that of any of the other of God’s image-bearers...especially in God’s eyes...?

They weren't created to be homosexuals, no more than a thief was created to be a thief. It's by free will those types make their own choice. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

Excellent stuff Dirtfarmer.

Do you think that all people were created in the image of God...regardless of their sin...? And do you think that all people...regardless of their sin...have dignity and worth equal to that of any of the other of God’s image bearers...especially in God’s eyes...?

Yes, I believe everyone is created in the image of God, as that's what the Bible says. Do all people, regardless of sin, have dignity worth equal to that of any other of God's image bearers? Unless you can prove me wrong with scripture, I say no to that one.

And his previous church leader, one of Satans tares, said on TV one day, "You must worship the Church".

Organized religion has been led astray by those tares of satan, his seed, mixed with Gods wheat, just as when Jesus was crucified, it was done by satan's tares running the organized religion of the day, and they were called the Saducees and Pharasees, who Jesus identified as vipers whose father was a murderer and begat by the main viper, the snake from the Garden of Eden.

The sons of Cain, satans seed scattered in with Gods seed, who became the vipers Jesus later referred to, found employment with the Southern Kingdom of Judah and Benjamin and part of the Levites after they split apart from the other tribes who formed the Northern Kingdom.

In the Bible it says the southern called themselves Jews, and the sons of Cain gained employment with them as scribes, and worked their way into positions of importance and ALSO INTO THE PREISTHOOD. They too, called themselves Jews, though their father was a viper and a murderer.

They are here in our churches today, working as then, to seperate Gods people from Him.

Appreciate you answering those questions JGRaider. Thank You.

So your affirmative answer to the first question coincides with what the Bible says, and you point that out. You can back up your first answer Biblically. Does your negative answer to the second question coincide with what the Bible says, or is it just your opinion...is it just the way you feel or believe about it...can you back up your second answer Biblically...?

Apostle Paul does say that we are ALL sinners who are guilty before God. I know that you know that. Apostle John does say that Jesus died for the WHOLE world. I know that you know that too. Paul and Peter both said that God shows no partiality, and James tells us to show no partiality. I know that I’m not pointing out anything in the Bible that you don’t already know.

I’m just tryin’ to see the point of view of how some Christians seemingly classify others sins, especially homosexuality, as somehow being worse than their own...? Where does the degree of severity of these sins come from...? Are the distinctions made solely by some Christians themselves...for their owns reasons...or can they back up Biblically that God Himself sees the sins of others, especially homosexuality, in a worse light than He sees their own...? The distinction was made earlier that it was by free will that homosexuals make their own choice regarding their sin. That’s debatable...science has observed variations on the sexual norm in countless other species...but, for the sake of this discussion, let’s assume that it is as you say. When I sin nowadays, and I do, it’s by free will that I make my own choice regarding my sin. And I’d venture to say that when you sin nowadays, and you do, it’s by free will that you make your own choice regarding your sin. And the same can be said for every other adult human being on the planet.

The ONLY people who are sitting in church pews, and the ONLY people who are professing to be Christian, are ALL sinners. Not ‘once were’ sinners, but ‘still are’ sinners. I think Jesus’ work on the cross was more than sufficient for ANY and ALL of those sins. And I think the Blood of the Atonement will cover ALL of the sins of those who have accepted God’s grace.

antlers,

God's Word tells us some used to be homosexuals and various other types of sinners. But they aren't any more.

Are not ALL sins essentially the same...in God’s eyes...as far as separating us from God...?

Is the Bible not clear that we ALL, apart from Jesus, deserve to go to hell because we ‘are’...not ‘were’...sinners, and we sin...?

I’m in your camp antlers. I don’t think God grades sin on a curve.

I agree with your post…. Maybe it has been mentioned before on this thread….. but, beyond the “we are all sinners by nature”……I think a good case can be made that not all sins have the same consequences.

Some sins have greater consequences than others…..in this life.

Consequences of sin may come from the “world” and the consequences may come directly from God.

Sin is sin.

But there are sins that are abominations to the Lord. The unforgivable one is to reject Christ, to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Murder, the shedding of innocent blood is an abomination to the Lord, but forgivable. One may be sitting on death row, forgiven but still facing execution.

So, there are consequences, even to the redeemed.

DF

Make a joyful noise.

Yeah, especially those who already died as such and are burning in hell.

Yep, you said it better than I could. Homosexuality is expressly stated several times in scripture as an abomination to out Lord. That is why homosexuals choose to be homos......God would not create someone He hates, as it is out of character for Him. As you so rightly stated, the only unforgiveable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

A good indication that hell has different levels of punishment is found in Jesus’ words in Luke 12: “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked” (verses 47–48)

The theology around here is atrocious.

The bible never says sins separate people from god.

It's impossible to be separated from god. How do you morons think that even works?

You'll go on all about your Omni this and that God is everywhere Greek platonic heartless diatribe then say "oh wait if you sin you're separated".

Oh yea, that makes perfect sense???

Paul says people are "alien and hostile in mind" because of evil actions.

Sin doesn't cause God to separate from man it causes man to pull away from God.

Adam and Eve hid in the bushes, God didn't hide from Adam.

Peter says "depart from me Lord", Jesus never says "peter depart from me, sinner".


The cross doesn't change Gods mind about man, it changes man's mind about God.

Pop-evangelical Arian bullshit theology says Jesus hung out with hookers, mafia extortionists, and drunks yet his father is "too holy and just" to look upon sin. If you believe that, you don't believe Jesus is god, and your not a Christian.

If you've seen Jesus, you've seen the father.
There is no other antiseptically judicially holy disappointed distant dirty hiding behind Jesus' back.

That's the "gospel" and the ancient trinitarian faith.

Anyhow, saved actually just means healed.

It's not some magical incantation, and it's not the one good work that saves you.

Evangelicals love to say, "we're saves by grace through faith, not by works" but it you "believe" you're "saved".

Except in the pretzel logic "believing" is just a work, and being "saved" doesn't heal you from anything, it just gets you out of hell, which is interpreter as eternal conscious torment.

And none of that had anything to do with Jesus, meeting his father, or ever actually being healed of your broken inner world / sin / darkness.

Jesus is in every single person right now. Ask him.

It's simple, , John, 3:16

I'm not classifying sin when I mention denominations embracing the queer way of life. What they are doing is publicly saying to the rest of the world that it's fine to be that way. The Bible teaches otherwise. The Bible tells us to forsake sin not embrace it as a lifestyle. Jesus is the advocate for all mankind. What I think doesn't matter. The Bible condemns homosexuals and unless they repent and turn away from sin they will not be saved. Those that teach that it's fine to live that lifestyle are wrong.

Why aren't ALL of the other abominations God listed in scripture...besides homosexuality...also demonized by so many Christians...?

The Bible condemns sin, period. That’s includes yours. That includes mine. That includes ALL of ours. Have you turned away completely, or do you ‘still’ sin...?

Isaiah did say that your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

Sin clearly does separate people from God.

https://youtu.be/GxdXw7LFguk

Do you believe that everyone goes to heaven?

Do you believe that Jesus is God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God:. But the Father is not the Holy Spirit, Who is not Jesus?

If you are His and cleansed of sin, are you stained by shortcomings you will succumb to, or do you remain unblemished, though you still fall short?

And that is satans purpose and desire. Separating you from Him hurts Him, as would a harlot seperating your child from you.

I think that believers will still give an account of what they have done after trusting Jesus as their Savior...they will still have to account for what they’ve done after salvation. But their sins will be covered by the Blood of the Atonement.

Yes. As it is written.

I do not think you will see the Lord as long as you can feel pain.

I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.…

So, no. He is not in all nor are all in Him.

Thats why many need to pray and ask Him to come into them, their heart, that they may believe and be reborn.

All are not reborn. Some will never be. They will go to hell, and He will not be in or go with them. They will suffer the ultimate misery, and that will be to be eternally seperated from Him.

You know this of course, but for anyone reading this without going back to my quote of Cpt. Ahab....
The way the box says me, then quotes him without my response, will be confusing. At midnight I guess my last statement was probably confusing to most too. 😉
The reason I mentioned that is that I don't agree that Christ lives in every person. I'm not sure what he was saying with the other statement. It sounded like he doesn't believe in the unique unity and distinct persons of God...Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I might be wrong, so was asking him.
________

Anyhow, it looks like your quote is from John 15, if I'm not mistaken. When I read it, I try to determine if Jesus is speaking to His disciples about how to walk with Him and bear fruit as believers or if He is giving a salvation teaching. The gospel of John is focused a lot on salvation, more than any other, so I think I see where you are coming from.

When He says,
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
I ask myself, who casts unbelievers into hell?
Are there any other passages that talk of men gathering others and throwing them into hell?

7
"If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."

This is a conditional prayer promise to those who abide in the words. It reminds me of the end of Matthew 6 and many other promises to believers.
He goes onto say,
"8
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples."

Not all believers are disciples.
Discipleship occurs with christian growth like bearing fruit and putting His words first.
Since unbelievers don't bear good fruit. God isn't telling them to bear more. I think this part of the chapter is written to believers.

As to salvation, I think you are on the right track by going to John. We just finished studying the book.
Do you happen to know how many times the word believe, believes (ed), (th) are used in that one gospel alone?

Well said and spot on, HC

Sorry and I know, HC but i went back through page aftef page and couldnt fi d his original post an just did the best i could.
Sorry but i figured any who matter who read the earlier Ahab stuff would know it was from him and not you.

You picked an awesome passage from John 15.
I just don't enjoy the pruning. Lol

On another note, here's the answer to the trivia question. You can tell whether or not it's a coincidence.

How many times is the word "believe" used in the Bible?

Answer 100 !!!

This tells me that it means something special to God.
John 20:31

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

Believing the Son of God, the Christ, gave His life on our behalf is the way we get that special gift of everlasting life and a lot more spiritual promises.
The Holy Spirit enters His new temple as does the Lord Jesus. The reason that I never asked Him to is because I put my faith in Him . At that point, the rest happened without my knowledge. I learned about it later from the Word as I read it.

Have a blessed week.

Interesting. Please expound on how your homey GG and your refusing at every prompt to offer your thoughts and insight. A humble servant gets a pass on opining on truth vs. lies and keeping silent when a trusted friend is falsely accused? C'mon, man. Are you a vessel and warrior of God on a part-time basis? As they say in the 'hood, 'you be half-steppin', yo. Weak.'

I think you're not understanding my intent on my post that started this conversation. The Bible teaches that to whom much is given much is required. Luke 12:48. I'm not singling out anyone except the guilty leadership of embracing the queer lifestyle and encouraging them to continue in it. It would be no different for a church leader to tell thieves that stealing is fine and you can keep stealing. Then also for that church to allow a known thief to be a pastor.

Do you think it's fine for these leaders to embrace the gay lifestyle and even partake in it?

Good morning, a joyful noise.

Here's a link https://www.gaychurch.org/find_a_church/ where homosexuals can go to find a church that will perform a wedding ceremony for them. This is just a random city not far from where I live. But it's alarming which churches are doing this. Here's a list.
First Baptist Church
Missouri United Methodist Church
Columbia United Church of Christ
Broadway Christian Church
Fairview Community of Christ
Rockbridge Christian Church
Now if some of you believe these churches are teaching people how to live according to the Bible you are just as wrong as they are. You are also what's wrong with our nation and the decline of a desire to live a moral lifestyle. I would also say that you have no problem with the current occupant in the White House. Liberals have several traits that are the glue that hold them together and the stance on same sex marriage and such is one of them.

So before you reply to my post I would ask a very simple question of either yes or no. Do you embrace churches that perform same sex marriage or allow clergy to be homosexuals? If that's the case then you and I have nothing else to discuss.

They are churches......churches of sodomy, that have nothing to do with God.

As has been already talked about, there is a longer list of abominations that God hates more than that which is common to man. I do believe there are certainly degrees of sin as there are accountability.
We know that one sin is enough to bring deserved condemnation to those claiming self-righteous acceptance with God for salvation. It comes down to God's grace and forgiveness through His Son.

That said, it is an interesting, no it is an outrage that the LGBTQFAG crowd embraces the rainbow as a symbol of solidarity and unity of perversions.
God gave it as a promise of His kindness to undeserving mankind. He decided to never destroy the earth with a flood. They twisted it's meaning.
The same groups/assemblies of people don't care what the overall Bible says from beginning to end.
For those who think that the OT is no longer an issue here, they need to read the NT references to Sodom and the warnings of Jesus Himself.

I do not think you will see the Lord as long as you can feel pain.

I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.…

So, no. He is not in all nor are all in Him.

Thats why many need to pray and ask Him to come into them, their heart, that they may believe and be reborn.

What you're describing isn't the ancient christian faith.
It's not christian at all, it's actually anti-christ because Christ isn't God, doesn't reveal God, and isn't God over everything.

He's not even "in the hearts" of unbelievers.

Also, it's "salvation" (whatever that means within your framework) by works- faith is the work that saves you.

I know you're just parodying what you've heard your whole life but you might want to take Jesus seriously.

Think about it this way- do you really think what you've heard your whole life is working out for you? Do you really think that the 90% of pastors preaching that b******* and whacking it to internet porn 9 to 5 while collecting tithes are really "saved"?

Do you really think the boring dry excruciatingly painful to even sit through a half-hour sermon at the local Baptist Church version of Christianity is what people ran to their deaths for in the first century?

Do you really think that having more churches in the south than convenience stores is about more than money and manipulation?

Do you really think God is losing and that's the reason culture is done with church?

I'll give you the answer- this " Christianity " that people are done with is the horseshit that you're describing where you ask a distant Jesus into your life so that his judgemental disapproving father (a different god, Jesus doesn't reveal him) won't send you to eternal conscious torment forever.

If think that's working for you, have at it.

If you're done with the pop pagan "ask Jesus into your heart" bullshit try this-

https://vimeo.com/34601629

Around 16 minutes it gets good.
Pagan Greek philosophy of separation is the beast and the Antichrist and about 99.9% of evangelical Christianity.

It's all based upon you being separated from God.
Jesus is the one in whom all things exist and consist and have their being.

Despite sin having blinded our eyes to seeing that truth, Jesus has come to show us what his father is like. He's not like an eternally conscious tormenting judge whose disappointed with everything you say. God is love.

Since God is in everyone you can see hints of this worldview in native American cultures as well as Buddhism Hinduism etc.

I'm not saying there's many roads to God I'm saying there's one road and his name is Jesus and you can't hide from him.

There's Buddhists that know Jesus native Americans that know Jesus, hell I've even met a few Christians that know Jesus.

Thanks to the great benefits that are provided through psilocybin LSD DMT and other psychedelics, lots of people are waking up to this truth that there is a thread uniting all things. His name is Jesus.

Wrong answer.It depends on the Bible.

The King James, which of course is actually THE Bible, has 19 times in the OT and 124 times in the NT. The New Revised Standard has 160: 24 in the OT and136 in the NT.

Where did you come up with that?

And, Jesus is in those who ask and receive His grace, not in everybody somehow by default.

We have been given a choice, so we have to choose. To not choose is a choice.

DF

Certainly, we ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Belief and the blood of Christ removes all sin, prior to belief, at the time of belief, and into the future regardless of belief. God keeps His Word, even if we don't.

For those who chose to parse these truths and make their own judgements of those they question the salvation of, God has told us this:

Matthew 7:1-5
King James Version
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Here's the TLDR-

If you say sin separates you from God because the father is too holy and just to look upon sin (like 99.9% of evangelicals), you're saying Jesus and his father are different- you're an Arian, not a Christian in the Nicene sense.

The eastern Orthodox get this right, but the bell and smell silliness along with demeaning women makes them irrelevant.

Paul young nailed it in the shack- the best representation of trinitarian theology in probably 1500 years.

It was late, and I made a mistake in wording.
I went back and read,
"How many times is the word "believe" used in the Bible?

Answer 100 !!!"

I meant to ask, How many times is the word "believe" used in the gospel of John?"

Answer 100 !!!.

The answer is correct for that book that we just got through studying. Yes, that's in the KJ Bible. That is the accurate Bible God gave the English speaking people for 400 years.

Why is 100 so exciting?
It is a miracle of the Gospel that is given to the world to teach about the person of Jesus and the salvation that He purchased with His own life.
100 Is the correct number and is a number that EMPHASIZES THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE RESPONSE to the gospel.

John 20:31
"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

How about that?

Okay so if believing is the one good work that saves you, how much do you have to believe?

Also, how might one calibrate his belief-o-meter in order to accurately asses whether he will fry for all eternity?

This is a futile game.

But you already know that, which is why most folks are scared they're gonna fry despite "believing"- hence "but at least I ain't queer". Gotta dive into comparison to prove to yourself you're truly "in".

The "faithfulness of Christ" (Gal 2:16 properly translated) is what saves (heals) us.

Now, once you start trusting in that (belief), you'll probably start living in the present and cleaning your act up.

Their is a chasm between the Old Testament and the New Testament that only Jesus can bridge. That means those things that were sinful in the OT very well may not be in the NT after Jesus walked on earth. We see this in that the "clean" food for all intents and purposes, disappeared and all food became acceptable to God. It took 3 times, which is usually a given for Peter, to have the Lord lower the sheet that contained previously "unclean" food from the OT and 3 times told him to kill and eat. And Peter still wondered what that meant.

Revelation 3:20
King James Version
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

This tells me the Lord is NOT in everyone. It is the Holy Spirit's responsibility to speak to our hearts so a place for the Lord may be prepared. Once people understand what and who that knocking is from, their path to salvation be established.

CaptArab you have significantly destroyed any believability you might hope to have in this site suggesting that psychedelic drugs are a path to salvation in Jesus Christ. Certainly He can forgive those who have so partaken, but few could be convinced that is an acceptable path for the purpose of salvation.

Camper, I find it hard to believe that all the rest of the Gospels and books of the NT would only amount to 24 times "believe" is used in all of them combined, apart from the Book of John. Even if your claim is true, how can it be a miracle and just what does that "miracle" show us, imply, or mean to you?

yes.

I've brought this up to Jaguar before, so he knew what I was talking about.
In short, you start with chapter 1 and continue the last chapter. Don't use the lazy software way. Actually read your Bible. At one per day, it will take only three weeks.
Underline every time any form / tense of the word believe is used. Ie. Believe (s), (th), (ed).

When you get the answer on your own, you will understand the blessing.

The verse John 20:31 shows the theme of this gospel.

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

Many years ago, I heard sermons from pastors, missionaries and evangelists that noted many ways that THEY thought a person could be saved.
For instance:
1. "Give your life (or heart) to Christ to be saved."
However, I thought it was the other way around. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son...
2. "Make Jesus Lord of your life..."
But I thought that Jesus IS Lord, regardless of anyones opinions.
"Acts 2:36 says,
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."
3. "Repent of your sins to be saved..."
This phrase is Not even used in the Bible (KJV)
Secondly, the word "repent" must be studied in context.
It does Not contain the greek or hebrew for sin.
God can NOT sin, yet He repented many times.
Repentance is a work. Works are not acceptable with God, only man.
The way false prophets preach their false gospel is to tell the people to stop sinning and trust Christ. What that really does is makes the turning from sin the object of faith, which is a works salvation.
https://youtu.be/DwVL78XOpTc

There's others, but I hope that you understand.
These different gospels can't all be right.
I then begged God to reveal to me the correct response we should have to the issue of salvation and death, burial, resurrection of Christ.
I Corinthians 15:1-4

There's no more important subject in all of history is that of what is required to spend eternity with the Lord.

In short, I found that the one thing that makes John's gospel unique is that it emphasizes Who Jesus is, like His Divinity....fully God and fully Man.
It also was written that unbelievers may believe on Him and be saved. See the verse above, John 20:31.
I also nite that the word so many preachers confuse their congregation of", Repent", is not found in this book. There is likely a good reason, don't you think so?

While studying this gospel one year, the Lord revealed something VERY special to me that I have never heard, nor have I read anywhere else.

That word BELIEVE is used not once, but exactly 100 times in this gospel. BELIEVE on Christ, the Son of God is THE answer that I begged God for.
The old saying, "If I told you once, I've told you a hundred times," certainly applies here.
God not only told us the answer, but did so with incredible emphasis for all who have eyes to see it and ears to hear it.

I encourage you RickyD and all who read this post to take up my challenge and see it for yourselves.
Then it will be your miracle too.

☕ 🙂 👍

One Happy Camper

Well, I watched the entire video. He has a fixation on "Greek origins ...dualism" .....However the comment that ...."the more the words, the less the meaning" seems to apply here...... ....and his continued presentation of numerous red herrings.. false dichotomies and straw men make it difficult to follow.

Does not present much OT testament teaching that corroborates the "dodgy gospel" of today.....Nor does he present NT verses that seem to support the "dodgy gospel." Also, I did not see where he presented a clear explanation of the "dodgy gospel" he rails against. He carefully selects verses and then proceeds to tell us what he thinks they mean. Sometimes I agree with his interpretation and sometimes his conclusions seem "off the wall."

However, it is an interesting mixture of some gospel truth and bafflegab. I may look into into it more this weekend.


btw..... I would assume that you see benefit in LSD use.... helps one "wake up to the truth" ..... how so?

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

You don't need a "path" to the one in whom we live and move and have our being, who's closer than the very air we breathe.

"Credibility" with evangelicals is a big red flag a person is full of [bleep].

"Credibility" is typically directly proportional to the odds said Christian top 40 rockstar is molesting children behind the scenes.

I speak to those who are ready to be "saved".

Camper, I've read the NT cover to cover many times. For over 30 years that I've hunted I took a Bible with me and read every book dozens of times. But hey, I'm happy for you that you have found something that, now appears not to be a miracle, but is a blessing to you.

A "little" truth here, a "little" truth there may not lead to the Truth.

Satan typically uses partial truths to trip up his intended victims, even used that tactic on the Lord on the Mt. of Temptation. But, Jesus consistently answered, "It is written", quoting Scripture. It's hard for us to be fooled if we follow that pattern.

Ps 119:160 tells us that the "SUM of Your Word is Truth" (Amp), thus we can't make a "cafeteria plan" out of the Scripture.

The same idea with the Passover lamb. They were instructed to eat the WHOLE lamb, not to pick and choose.

DF

Never tried psychedelics, but when any pocket of culture starts speaking the same language as St Paul and the apostolic fathers, it's good to pay attention.

Col 1- Christ is the fabric that holds all things together.

Physicist know that fabric is there.
Trippers know it's there.
Eastern cultures and native Americans know it.

Really everyone other than those infected with neoplatonic separation- i.e western "Christians".

The task of evangelism is to put a name to the face everyone already knows, as the holy spirit's been poured out on all flesh- humanity has been reconciled to God- we were all on the cross with Jesus- he holds all things together.

We've all been crucified and recreated in Jesus.

Therefore repent (which litterally means "change your way of thinking) and be reconciled to God.

BTW, I'm not some new age nut- this is straight Paul -> Athanasius -> Cappadocian fathers -> Barth -> Torrance -> Baxter Kruger / Paul Young / thousands others.

The Augustinian thread leads to the non-gospel "gospel" of separation- inviting a distant deity into your heart.

Augustine was a neoplatonist who essentially made a sandwich of Greek philosophy and Christianity- hence the city of god (immaterial, platonic, disembodied) vs the city of man (carnal, sinful, material).

The west has largely followed in his footsteps.

Just like in Athanasius time when "the whole world was Arian" (believes Jesus is a creation below the father), so it is now.

Nearly all evangelicals don't really believe Jesus expresses the fundamental essence of God, but is yet a stepping stone protecting us from a distant Greek deity hiding behind his back.

But people are sick of that anti-christ (literally against Christ) garbage as it doesn't give life- it simply takes and takes and takes.

Pastors have addictions broken marriages and broken finances to prove it. Most are done, and the gospel is spreading.

Haven’t parsed your words, but find quite a bit to agree with at my first reading,of them.

I'm pretty aggressive in my attacks on the anti-christ gospel of separation- but still wholehearted love my religious brethren that propagate that garbage-

It'd be pretty hypocritical not to, I spent many years of my life doing just that myself.

But at some point you just gotta admit, it ain't workin'.

What is the gospel of separation?

Would like to hear the Capt’s concept of sin.

DF

A miracle is something that only God can do.
I believe that He put that word "Believe" in that gospel for a reason, not 79 times or 96 times, but 100 times even. If someone gets saved by BELIEVING the right Jesus, not the false one disgusted. Including the substitutionary death, burial and resurrection as Opposed to the substitute gospel of man's works, then they will be guaranteed deliverance from hell to their new destiny in heaven.
That's miraculous indeed.

How can anyone read while hunting??

I’ve got deer coming through every 10-15 minutes, that or they are standing and milling around. And no, not associated with a feeder, just terrain choke points and funnels.

Be fumbling around with a book or barely move you head and they’ll bolt. Some wary does will book it if they see you blink.


Maybe your hunting spots suck ? I go to hunt, not screw around.

Sin is the cancer in our souls that makes Adam and Eve hide in the bushes from God.

It distorts the father's face into someone we have to hide from- someone we can't be intimate with, trust, receive love from- as Paul says "alien and hostile in mind".

It never turns God away from us, it turns us away from God.

Again, who hides from who in Eden?

The non-gospel "gospel" of separation turns that on its head with Greek neoplatonic notions of non-relational judicial holiness. Then the gospel becomes about Jesus saving you from hell.

Which has nothing to do with what hell is about.
This is illustrated perfectly by the flaming toilet of death-
https://youtu.be/spRhyRnqvV4

Amen!

The last time I remember that I was reading a chapter of the Foxes Book of Martyrs in Mon National forest.
I didn't notice that there was a deer standing behind me a couple yards while I was leaning against the tree. Someone else did and must've been color blind. I heard a bullet whistle by and it bolted. Too much hunting pressure and I hunted from a stand then on after in that place.

I'd just like the church goers here to be blessed with an awesome Biblical insight rather than captivated with cultic beliefs that blaspheme our Lord and deny the Trinity. I'm trying to figure out if it's "Jehovah's" False Witness, or some spin off.

What Adan and Eve did is symbolic of the ongoing human nature of sin. It's been called the original sin and every person born enters the world with it. It's the desire to serve yourself rather than God. Without forgiveness that never goes away and we have no record that Adam and Eve ever repented but we do have record that God broke off the walks with them in The Garden and forced them out of it. God even sent the flaming sword to keep them from eating of the tree of life. It appears that Adam and Eve no longer had fellowship with God. That's what happens with someone that's been saved and keeps sinning and unless they repent of that willful sin they no longer are in fellowship with God. Jesus told the woman at the well to go and sin no more. he doesn't shut the door though as it says in 1John verse 9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

To answer the question of who hid from who. It was humans but it was God that expelled them from the garden and no longer had fellowship with them. They had a choice to make at this point and nothing in the Bible ever tells us what choice they made. I hope they made the right one. If not they are not with God now.

I watched the video. Fear (as in reverential awe) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Prov. 9:10.

Too many get caught up in the love of God, but discount His wrath.

They try to mold God into their image of what God should be, not yield to His image. That way, they think they don't have to face a fearsome God.

Existentialists claim God is a figment of man's thinking, an idealized version of man, what man thinks God should be. So, according to them, man created God, God didn't create man. What man creates, man controls.

That, of course, is the big lie. Satan is a counterfeiter, has no original thoughts, has created nothing.

If Satan can fool people into thinking they have God in them without repentance and without removing themselves from the throne of their life, then he's got'em.

We're told if we want to follow the Lord, we have to deny self, take up our cross daily and then and only then, follow Him. We can't hold onto self and follow the Lord, can't serve two masters.

It ends up a control issue. So, the bottom line. Who's in control of your life? Who sits on the throne of your life?

The ultimate question.

DF

I can't read when I'm hunting either but I know that sometimes I fall asleep and maybe even snore. When I am awake, and that's most of the time I see allot of deer and enjoy every bit of it. Enjoyed some yesterday in fact, ate some deer sausage!

Just out of curiosity, why do you figure those who have so partaken would require forgiveness for it?

The problem with homosexuals is repentance. With other sins, they recognize them as sins and repent. In spite of all the scriptures about homosexuality, they refuse to acknowledge it as sin and won't repent. God will forgive it like any other sin but repentance is required and they refuse to do it. Instead, they demand that God change to suit them and that's not going to happen. They've condemned themselves by it.

Dirtfarmer, like most pop-evangelical is using his moral fortitude to imagine a great big scary god- which sounds highly virtuous, but pure is Arian.

Jesus is, quite literally the image of God.

You can worship him as God, or create a kinda hybrid version where you mix in 3 parts fallen imagination (why Adam and Eve hid), 2 parts old testament genocide (more fallen imagination), and 1 part Jesus.

Or you can take sides with Jesus that when he said "if you've seen me you've seen the Father" he meant it.

If you believe in dirt farmers god, your soul will remain so broken that you can spend an enormous amount of time and tithe money getting a preacher's advice for how to fix your issues.

You'll never really make any progress but everybody will think you're super virtuous. Which works out really well until you get busted for your pornography addiction or get divorced or raise gay kids etc etc etc.

Actually, maybe it doesn't work out so hot . . .

If you worship a Jesus that's so small you have to ask him into your life, he's really not worth worshiping at all . . .

I worship the God of the Bible.

Not small at all. Creator of the Universe.

Your reasoning sounds more like speculation than revelation.

I prefer the latter.

DF

Comes across as plain ol’ bigotry to me Jim. Not only bigotry towards homosexuals, but also bigotry towards those who don’t show bigotry towards homosexuals...accusing them of being liberals and liking Biden being in the White House simply because they don’t see eye to eye with you on this matter. lol. Weaponizing the Bible to justify one’s bigotry isn’t anything new.

Christians have hated other people with a Bible verse, Christians have persecuted other people with a Bible verse, Christians have enslaved other people with a Bible verse, and Christians clearly have bigotry towards other people with a Bible verse...and when somebody confronts em’ with it...they’ll likely have a verse from the Bible with which they'd found a way to disregard and mistreat people for whom Jesus died...using His fathers words...! Give em' a minute and they'll find a Biblical justification for just about any of their demeaning behavior they want.

That's what some 'Christians' do. They'll pick a sin...overwhelmingly homosexuality...and hold it up higher than all the rest (including their own sins). They've taken theology and they've twisted it to empower themselves to do the very opposite of what God commanded them to do. His command was "Love one another." By *this*, by the way you love, this is how everybody's gonna know you're my follower.

Not by your theology, not by reading the Bible, not by going to church, not by thumping Bible verses about “abominations” at others, not by how you interpret certain Bible verses, and not by ANYTHING else...the way you love others is gonna be *the* thing that communicates more than anything else that you're my follower.

And then He said this, "As I have loved you, that's how you're supposed to love one another." Ain’t seein’ much of that from so many who profess Christianity. Jesus probably doesn't like it when ‘Christians’ use His fathers words to avoid doing His fathers will.

You didn't answer my question. Just one more reason for me to form my thoughts that you are a liberal. I'm a bigot because I take the stand that homosexuals are not fit for church leadership. I'm fine with that. There is no reason for you and I to further discuss anything.

You never answered either of these two simple questions that were directed specifically to you yesterday, but you’re gonna castigate me for not answering your question today, and further accuse me of being a liberal because of it...? lol. Shocker.

I just got in a few minutes before I made my first post of the day today. I hadn’t even read the question that you referred to at that time. I’ve been climbing and hiking in the mountains. Did 11.6 miles in some rough country, took me 4 hours and 40 minutes.
Not anymore than I think it’s fine for them to embrace hypocrisy and even partake in it; not anymore than I think it’s fine for them to embrace bigotry and even partake in it; not anymore than I think it’s fine for them to embrace ‘any’ sin and even partake in it. But they ‘do’ still partake in sin, and so do you, and so do I, and so do all of us.

I’d venture to say that money, and the stuff that money can buy, is in control... and “sits on the throne”...of most people’s lives nowadays

antlers,

People are created in God's image. Some become thieves, some become homosexuals, some become chronic speeders on the highway.

The first recorded Words of Jesus are, "Repent...." First John teaches one who practices sin is of the devil.

Jesus says if you love Him you will obey His commandments. First Corinthians 14 at the end of the chapter tells us the things Paul wrote are God's commandments.

Well that answers the question: SELF... The love of money.....

We have met the enemy. And it is US....

There were two trees in the Garden. The Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

The root of one was (and is) Life, the other, death.

Deut 30:19, ....I have set before you life and death... ...choose life, so that you and your descendants may live.

Our choice.

DF

Yeah, but ALL of em’...you, me, and everyone else...’are’, not ‘were’...sinners. Yeah, Jesus said this is the time of fulfillment, and the kingdom of God is at hand. So repent, and believe in the gospel. Yeah, John said All sin...yours, mine, and everyone else’s...in all forms, is from Satan.Yeah, especially His all-encompassing New Covenant commend “that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you must also love one another.” Paul even said that this single commandment is a fulfillment of the entire Jewish law. I disagree with what Paul said about women being silent in church, and about slaves being obedient to their masters, and about submitting to government authorities. If I get chastised for that at the Judgement Seat of Christ, then I just will.

You, perhaps, will experience 1 Corinthians 3. Saved but by fire.

Squeeking in by the skin of one's teeth beats the alternative....

DF

I’d say that for most people, God’s chief competitor for your heart…if God wants all of your heart and your undivided attention...God’s chief competitor for your heart, once you hit adulthood, is your money, and the stuff that money can buy.