When did the ATF start requiring gun stores to keep copies of Driver License of buyers? Does anyone know where in the regulations it states this so I can look it up? I know the store would check the driver's license when filling out the yellow form, but taking copies of the drivers license must be fairly new. They also made a copy of my CCW.
Never had them do that for me
bought two this past weekend, definitely didn't have to do that just the form and validating driver license info
The FFL that I used to use just outside of town (no longer in business) did the same thing (copy of my DL and CCW). I assumed it was just an internal policy as I know of no rule that requires it.
Some bigger stores have their own rules kind of above and beyond ATF laws whether you agree with it or not that's the way they do things. Buying something and for instance Bass Pro the headquarters are in Springfield Missouri is a real pain in the ass. I don't usually purchase much in the way of firearms there but a while back they had a certain shotgun I kind of wanted so I purchased it there I bet I was asked 50 times where I was born before I got the hell out of there.
You should have walked. I raise holy hell when somebody wants to see my driver's license or my Social Security card/number. So far, my tantrum's have yielded a work-around in every case. Am I an Official Curmudgeon with that attitude??
You can bet your butt every gun you buy except for private sales is in a database. I can't prove it, and we'll never know unless they want to start confiscating. I can't remember any gun purchase where they took a copy of my DL
The new kids behind the counter forcefully said it is the law when I questioned it. By Gum!
Same thing was told to me at Tractor Supply when they wanted my birthday and copy of my DL to buy DEF fluid. Yet no one else is doing it.
Same thing was told to me at Tractor Supply when they wanted my birthday and copy of my DL to buy DEF fluid. Yet no one else is doing it.
WTF, over??? Why??
Thought of that, but the gun was a lay-a-way so it would have cost me 10% to put it back on the shelf.
Remember them now saying it has been this way since 2020.
The new kids behind the counter forcefully said it is the law when I questioned it. By Gum!
Same thing was told to me at Tractor Supply when they wanted my birthday and copy of my DL to buy DEF fluid. Yet no one else is doing it.
Might have passed some new regulations or I should say came up with some new regulations lately as my understanding. I have also been told by good sources to find any reason to pull license is from ffls. I have that on no real authority just been told by a friend that is a FFL dealer
No one ever told me as an FFL I needed to do that...
Store policies, not law. They may have piggy backed this as CYA when they got really strict about the info on the license agreeing 100% with the entered data.
Some bigger stores have their own rules kind of above and beyond ATF laws whether you agree with it or not that's the way they do things. Buying something and for instance Bass Pro the headquarters are in Springfield Missouri is a real pain in the ass. I don't usually purchase much in the way of firearms there but a while back they had a certain shotgun I kind of wanted so I purchased it there I bet I was asked 50 times where I was born before I got the hell out of there.
Cabela's isn't any better.
No one ever told me as an FFL I needed to do that...
Store policies, not law. They may have piggy backed this as CYA when they got really strict about the info on the license agreeing 100% with the entered data.
Yes I've been told to be sure even the weight you fill out on your yellow sheet or 4473 nowadays needs to match your license whether that is actually your weight currently or not. Everything should match exact
You DO NOT have to submit to having your DL copied!
Been there! Done that! The manager came out and chastised the clerk for even making the demand.
You DO NOT have to make a carbon copy of your Form 4473.
Had a dingle berry at a WalMart hand me two Form 4473's with a piece of carbon between.
"What's this?" I asked.
"We send a copy to head quarters and keep a copy here."
I ripped the carbon paper out and told the ID-10-T, "I used to handle Form 4473's. Only one copy must be held at point of sale."
Dipwad didn't want to let me have the gun.
Was any of this after 2020. The kids said it was after 2020 this came into being with the new forms.
🐴💩
You DO NOT have to submit to having your DL copied!
Been there! Done that! The manager came out and chastised the clerk for even making the demand. What they're doing is a violation of your rights to privacy. They can ONLY see your DL to check the information you put on the Form 4473.
You DO NOT have to put your SocSec # on the Form 4473. It "states" on your SocSec card that it IS NOT a valid form of ID.
You DO NOT have to make a carbon copy of your Form 4473.
Had a dingle berry at a WalMart hand me two Form 4473's with a piece of carbon between.
"What's this?" I asked.
"We send a copy to head quarters and keep a copy here."
I ripped the carbon paper out and told the ID-10-T, "I used to handle Form 4473's. Only one copy must be held at point of sale and it's against the law to copy a Form 4473."
Dipwad didn't want to let me have the gun.
I've had more violations occur at "chain" pawn shops where staff comes from state employment centers or off the sidewalk.
Never had a problem at a LGS or privately owned pawn shop.
AFIK it’s store policy, maybe a way to prevent transcribing errors. Don’t care myself, and I never give them my SSN. My son’s license doesn’t have a street address, so he uses other allowable government-issued ID, a fishing license, along with something else. Just bought a Glock, so it works.
Some stores here skip the background check as allowed by law for CCW holders, some don’t, but that’s their choice as well. I’m free to go elsewhere if I don’t like it.
Grates my nerves when people (referencing sales people here) don’t know the difference between a law and a policy. And they are often so passionate about it being the law. And they are usually wrong.
My pet pee that's having to fill out the paperwork via computer. I want old fashioned pen and paper. I myself am much more likely to make an error and not catch it via computer then it causes issues then I get all pissy I just don't need it LOL
My pet pee that's having to fill out the paperwork via computer. I want old fashioned pen and paper. I myself am much more likely to make an error and not catch it via computer then it causes issues then I get all pissy I just don't need it LOL
I'm just the opposite greatly preferring the computer.
Its a store policy, I have worked for two gun stores that take a copy and two that do not. Scheels, takes the photo copy but then once its verified and in the log book, the copy gets shredded. (Not thrown away, shredded!) Thats to double check the information and make sure the information is as correct as they can make it. For every error an ffl has, you receive a ding or a chit during an audit. Enough errors and they can fine you, suspend your ffl or revoke it. When I ran one gun department it was 1.2 to 1.4 million dollars a year in all gun sales. When I was the Shotgun manager for Scheels I did twice that, just in shotguns. That doesn't account for rifles and handguns. So you can see that chits can add up awfully quick, so bigger companies often go above the norm to reduce issues. But, I agree the sales staff need to know what they are talking about before being so adamant to the customer. The job is not just selling the gun, but knowing the process from beginning to end.
Another vote for not letting anyone copy my DL or SS card.
My pet pee that's having to fill out the paperwork via computer. I want old fashioned pen and paper. I myself am much more likely to make an error and not catch it via computer then it causes issues then I get all pissy I just don't need it LOL
I'm just the opposite greatly preferring the computer.
They should just have both a person can choose got no problem with that.
I was once told they have to provide paper if you request it I've tried that before and it didn't go well
AFIK it’s store policy, maybe a way to prevent transcribing errors. Don’t care myself, and I never give them my SSN. My son’s license doesn’t have a street address, so he uses other allowable government-issued ID, a fishing license, along with something else. Just bought a Glock, so it works.
Some stores here skip the background check as allowed by law for CCW holders, some don’t, but that’s their choice as well. I’m free to go elsewhere if I don’t like it.
OK started by dismissing the background check for SDA (Okie for CHL) holders. A year or so later, they went back to background checks for everybody.
You should have walked. I raise holy hell when somebody wants to see my driver's license or my Social Security card/number. So far, my tantrum's have yielded a work-around in every case. Am I an Official Curmudgeon with that attitude??
Well, considering that:
You are required by law to provide proof of identity and
The FFL is required by law to record the type and number from your ID, I'd say yes.
Goodness, please, please, you are literally at a computer. Look up the Federal and State laws. When your box store (not sure why you are buying there anyway) or podunk tough nut low IQ gunshop require more than that.......leave. It's not that hard.
My pet pee that's having to fill out the paperwork via computer. I want old fashioned pen and paper. I myself am much more likely to make an error and not catch it via computer then it causes issues then I get all pissy I just don't need it LOL
Holy crap, I hate doing the 4473 on their computer. It takes FOR-FUCGING-EVER. I bought a gun I ordered at Rural King a few months ago, and I like to have never got out of there. Type it all in, then the dude at the counter copies it all down... by hand... and then does something else, and something else... Sumbitch. Had a similar experience several years ago with the only gun I ever bought at Gander Mountain.... I swear, it took at least a half hour.
I can fill out the ordinary paper form in about 38 seconds, and bam, it's done.
AFIK it’s store policy, maybe a way to prevent transcribing errors. Don’t care myself, and I never give them my SSN. My son’s license doesn’t have a street address, so he uses other allowable government-issued ID, a fishing license, along with something else. Just bought a Glock, so it works.
Some stores here skip the background check as allowed by law for CCW holders, some don’t, but that’s their choice as well. I’m free to go elsewhere if I don’t like it.
OK started by dismissing the background check for SDA (Okie for CHL) holders. A year or so later, they went back to background checks for everybody.
I don’t expect that will happen here, WV is pretty gun-friendly, with Constitutional Carry, Stand Your Ground, and Castle Doctrine. We have a lot of thieves and druggies in some areas, but not much violent crime, gang stuff etc. We got Constitutional Carry by an override of the Dem Governor’s veto.
Sold an upper (just an upper) to a younger guy a few years back... he wanted camera pics of my DL, CCW et al.
His wife was there.
I said "Sure... can I get pictures of yours as well... So I can come by later and rob you both?"
--------------------------------------
All worked out in the end... his wife got the memo immediately and chewed his ass hard as I drove away.
Still
My pet pee that's having to fill out the paperwork via computer. I want old fashioned pen and paper. I myself am much more likely to make an error and not catch it via computer then it causes issues then I get all pissy I just don't need it LOL
I'm just the opposite greatly preferring the computer.
They should just have both a person can choose got no problem with that.
I was once told they have to provide paper if you request it I've tried that before and it didn't go well
Still use paper here.
AS A LICENSE FFL HOLDER , i am not require to keep a copy of the driver`s license but you do have to fill it out on the form they want or need that or some other form but the driver`s license is the easiest to use and its no big deal either. so what
Goodness, please, please, you are literally at a computer. Look up the Federal and State laws. When your box store (not sure why you are buying there anyway) or podunk tough nut low IQ gunshop require more than that.......leave. It's not that hard.
Pretty much it and Big R store, 120 miles either way to get to another. This store had a retired Hwy Patrolman working for them until last week. Got a better job somewhere else. He is a friend and a wealth of knowledge. He was the reason 80-90% of the people went in there. It was awful quiet today.
Yep you have to and it rankles me every time so when they want more than is required by this stupid law it rankles more.
Goodness, please, please, you are literally at a computer. Look up the Federal and State laws. When your box store (not sure why you are buying there anyway) or podunk tough nut low IQ gunshop require more than that.......leave. It's not that hard.
You must be used to looking through government regs.
We don’t scan or keep the front of any drivers license. We do scan the back. We use an electronic bound book and it mirrors our POS system. At the time of checkout, we scan the model number on the gun, the serial number on the gun and then it prompts for drivers license. We scan the back and that specific firearm is disposed correctly in the customers name. No mistakes that way….and that’s a huge ordeal when selling high volumes of firearms. Everything matches on the paper form (we physically check it against the drivers license before checking out) and in the bound book.
When did the ATF start requiring gun stores to keep copies of Driver License of buyers? Does anyone know where in the regulations it states this so I can look it up? I know the store would check the driver's license when filling out the yellow form, but taking copies of the drivers license must be fairly new. They also made a copy of my CCW.
No ATF requirement.... Some store policies may do that, but it's not law...
We don’t scan or keep the front of any drivers license. We do scan the back. We use an electronic bound book and it mirrors our POS system. At the time of checkout, we scan the model number on the gun, the serial number on the gun and then it prompts for drivers license. We scan the back and that specific firearm is disposed correctly in the customers name. No mistakes that way….and that’s a huge ordeal when selling high volumes of firearms. Everything matches on the paper form (we physically check it against the drivers license before checking out) and in the bound book.
Where does that info go/get stored?
Most gunshops around here do it and store the copy with the 4473. I have no problem with it as you have already given them all the info that's on it so whats the difference if they have a copy or not? I DO NOT however put my SSN on the 4473. If a store says they require it I point out that the form itself states it as optional.
If you are worried about identity theft believe me there are far easier methods for a thief than breaking into a gun shops physical files and stealing paper 4473s.
Most gunshops around here do it and store the copy with the 4473. I have no problem with it as you have already given them all the info that's on it so whats the difference if they have a copy or not? I DO NOT however put my SSN on the 4473. If a store says they require it I point out that the form itself states it as optional.
If you are worried about identity theft believe me there are far easier methods for a thief than breaking into a gun shops physical files and stealing paper 4473s.
+1
I don’t get the aversion to them making a copy. In most states it’s a public record/document which people could get anyway. Heck you don’t even need a driver’s license to find someone‘a address. Most areas (local governments) have that information on their GIS system which many are now online. Don’t forget all all of your real estate sales are public information and easy to find.
Same thing was told to me at Tractor Supply when they wanted my birthday and copy of my DL to buy DEF fluid. Yet no one else is doing it.
WTF, over??? Why??
Maybe because DEF fluid contain urea, and urea can be used to make urea nitrate. Urea nitrate can be used as an explosive like ANFO.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/explosives-anfo.htm
They've been doing driver's license and CC W here in Florida for a while when you fill out a 4473.
Ok but they are the only ones doing it. If it is law, then there are a lot of law breaking companies in MT.
Most gunshops around here do it and store the copy with the 4473. I have no problem with it as you have already given them all the info that's on it so whats the difference if they have a copy or not? I DO NOT however put my SSN on the 4473. If a store says they require it I point out that the form itself states it as optional.
If you are worried about identity theft believe me there are far easier methods for a thief than breaking into a gun shops physical files and stealing paper 4473s.
Not worried about ID theft, but going above the law in what is required bugs me. Like I said I don't like filling the form out or getting permission to practice our freedoms. Now the ATF is violating the law by keeping these forms on computer getting a backdoor registration.
We don’t scan or keep the front of any drivers license. We do scan the back. We use an electronic bound book and it mirrors our POS system. At the time of checkout, we scan the model number on the gun, the serial number on the gun and then it prompts for drivers license. We scan the back and that specific firearm is disposed correctly in the customers name. No mistakes that way….and that’s a huge ordeal when selling high volumes of firearms. Everything matches on the paper form (we physically check it against the drivers license before checking out) and in the bound book.
Where does that info go/get stored?
By scan, I mean the scanner for the POS system. Not a physical, hard copy of the license. The info is stored in our computer system and doesn't go anywhere.
It says right on my Drivers Lic. (not for ID purposes).
It says right on my Drivers Lic. (not for ID purposes).
But did you get the Fed-approved "Real ID?"
When did the ATF start requiring gun stores to keep copies of Driver License of buyers?
Between the feds and your LGS can be a layer cake of regulatory authority to whom the dealer may have to answer. In some urban areas this sometimes comes right down to a city license for gun dealers. Did someone specifically cite an ATF reg when they took your DL info?
When did the ATF start requiring gun stores to keep copies of Driver License of buyers?
Between the feds and your LGS can be a layer cake of regulatory authority to whom the dealer may have to answer. In some urban areas this sometimes comes right down to a city license for gun dealers. Did someone specifically cite an ATF reg when they took your DL info?
No they didn't, but they emphatically said it was the law. I am pretty sure in MT no such law exists so it would have to be federal. I wanted to get my ducks in a row before asking them to show me the reg. I am also sure they will refuse to show it to me because it doesn't exit or there are several FFLs selling illegally.
I've never carried a SS card. I had one when I was a kid, but have no idea what happened to it.
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