some models hold a lot of ammo.

I think it can if you shoot them with it.

It’s not the gun so much as the shooter that matters.

I think the 9mm is a pussy cartridge. 😁

Biden says it’ll blow a lung out so you know it’s powerful.

Nope. Never.

I'd rather be behind, than in front of.

Haha!

Maybe....but you wouldn't stand in front of Jerry M if he was armed with one!

I have killed several sheep and a couple cows with one.

I have been carrying a Glock 19 since 1986... (or another model Glock).

I have extreme confidence that I can use it effectively to stop a human threat in general proximity to my person.

Well if the attacker is an angry trash panda you are probably fine. A methed out hobo might be a bit much.

Here's a very scientific study on the matter involving two doctors:

I've been wondering about the 22LR as threat reducer.

9x19mm is my go to. It’s cheap and quiet even with supersonic bulk ammo shot through PCC’s or pistols with a can. I’ve always been a Glock guy but my current carry gun is a Sig 365 Macro. I love it. The grip leads up to a high bore axis hold better than any pistol that I’ve owned and is slim while holding 17 rounds in a standard flush fit mag.

I’ve never noticed much difference in standard velocity 9mm Vs 45 ACP recoil but 9mm is noticeably quieter suppressed, statistically they’re about the same in stopping power and more rounds is a real thing.

I think you’re bored tonight OP. Run out of chips and dip😂

Not according to Jeff Cooper. You need at least a .40 in his opinion, and a .45 is best.

It may be ugly, but 33 Stingers ain't no joke...

I put down one of our old cows with one. It’s all I had with me that day. 124 gr Speer Gold Dot HP + P load.
Gun barrel was about 6” from the center of her forehead. Dead Right there.

I believe that is spelled stoppan powah.

I’m a Cooper fan and a 1911 fan. He wasn’t wrong but was a product of a different era IMO.

Were he around today and 35 years old. I suspect that he’d be an advocate of polymer striker fired 9’s.

In the face.

🦫

Got shot in the leg with one in HS by one of my dumb ass buddies. Stung like a mofo. Luckily he didn’t hit bone or an artery. Passed all the way through.
I wouldn’t recommend it. 😬

I have a stash of those and some other high velocity stuff.

Probably.

Phil Shoemaker shot and killed a bear with a 9mm that was attacking his clients.

Thugs getting shot with 45 ball nose survive all the time.

I use 147gr +P+ 9mm

No!


Can a toolbox fix a car?

No!

A person can use an object available to defend themself.


A 9mm might be a good object to have on hand for such use.

Its like real estate, location, location, location!

No way in hell I'd stand in front of Jerry if he had a cap gun!

A friend says 40 is a minimum, calls a 9mm a cupcake round.

I know that you’re a big collector/gun guy. If you haven’t already checked out the Sig Macro look at one when you get a chance. I’ve commented on it in the handgun forum and really like it. I think you’ll like it too.

Brother….you are slowly morphing into Wabigoon

lol

Yep. Wouldn’t be my first choice. But ole Phil is a LOT MORE Experienced than the rest of us. I’d damn sure never doubt anything he says he’s done.

go aggervate somebody else

I’ve never liked .40 S&W. It’s always seemed like neither fish or fowl to me. 9x19mm and 45 ACP both have a ton of history behind them. The .40 was a watered down 10mm FBI special with no history that just sort of split the difference. Obviously there’s nothing wrong with it. I’ve just never really liked it.

I for one am not a fan of the 9mm. It has nothing to do with the round however, and more to do with what I grew up on. I grew up on the 38spcl & 357mag. Later I went to the 40cal (which some people also have no love for) as a LEO with a 380 in my boot. I just don't own a 9mm gun and have no place for one.

However, the 9mm has a history of getting the job done when used by a trained shooter.

"there are entire graveyards full of bad dudes who have been killed by 9mm, and that every argument to get “more stopping power than a 9mm” had nothing to do with the 9mm’s terminal performance. But it’s easier to buy new cartridges than teach people to shoot better"

I just can’t see buying a comped gun for a carry pistol. Might be fine for plinking.
Buy a standard Sig P365 and never look back. It’s very reliable with everything I’ve tried in it. And damn accurate too for a small 9mm. Best “small” carry pistol I’ve ever purchased.

Long live the 38 Super and 9x23

CCI Singers are what I carry in my little Ruger LCP II in .22 lr, when it’s in my pocket.

Sam;
Good evening my friend, I hope the week behaved well enough for you all.

While I'm cognizant coyotes and people are two different things, I have hit coyotes with a 165gr BT out of a .308 Norma and had them just shift gears and leave - for a wee bit.

Anyways Sam, CCI Velocitor is the "house load" here for coyotes now. I want to say I'm at 6 now with one shot stops and usually stop and drop with Velocitors. Edit to add - that's out of a rifle to be clear.

We Stingered at least one and another one caught a Yellow Jacket, but both of them are better gopher/pigeon/rat bullets as they don't penetrate quite enough.

Now as to whether or not the Velocitor gets up to enough speed in a short barrel Sam, that I cannot say, but we did chronograph Stingers from a 5" pistol and while I can't recall the speed, it wasn't as fast as out of a rifle - I think....

The other "yard load" here is a .357 Mag carbine that puts 158gr out at 1700fps, but it's not been fired in anger into anything - yet.

All the best and back to the regular 9mm topic now Sam.

Dwayne

I’m sure they work well just like my KelTec .22 mag pistol.
But that’s got to be the ugliest pistol KelTec has made so far.
By a long shot. 😬

I distinctly remember reading the famous Cooper quote when he was asked about the 9x19 on a 1911 frame he said" You would be better off to save your money to have your testosterone level checked". Ol Mike it will work fine for you but you need to distract them first by asking if they want chips N dip.... mb

.357 Sig round does about the same as a .38 super.
I’ve got two Glocks in that caliber. It works well on feral hogs.
Wish some MFG would chamber a 1911 in that caliber.
Springfield Armory claimed they were going to chamber their EMP 1911in .357 Sig. But they never did.

I don’t disagree.

I’d prefer it without the comp. It isn’t noticeably louder to my ear but I haven’t really noticed much of a recoil reduction either.

I’d like it better with either a full length barrel or shortened without the comp.

What I really like about it is how compact and concealable it is while fitting my 2x hands and being easy to shoot with a full a capacity Glock 17 size mag in a slimmer gun. Sigs have obviously never been known for their low bore axis but the 365 grip IMO guides the hand into a high hold better than anything I’ve handled.

Dimocraps would laugh at you, until a hole appeard in their throat or heart or between the eyes.

Surprisingly decent velocity out of 3” barrels...

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22.html

C and Dwayne, I also ordered some Federal Punch, they are supposed to get 1070fps out of a 2" barrel and 1650fps out of a 24".


Just screwing around trying something new I guess.


If I was actually worried about being attacked by gangsters I'd have something more potent.

👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Sam;
Thanks for the reply my friend.

Huzzah for "just screwing around trying something new" Sam!

May it ever be thus, say I!

When I get tired or too old to do that, well it'll be a dark day for this BC redneck anyways Sam.

We see bugger all for Federal .22 ammo up here, but I shall now look for that Federal Punch to fool with my own self.

Best to you all again Sam.

Dwayne

Figured you were thinking about letting your wife carry it.
I figured you’d carry your P365. Or your Titanium pocket Rocket in 357 magnum.
If she thinks the new revolver is too big to carry in her purse, you might consider the Ruger LCP II for her. Mine has worked flawlessly.
Not much recoil either.

Yep. I sure wouldn’t want to get shot with them.

Can a 9mm defend against an attacker????





I'd rather have one in my hand than my pecker!




ya!

GWB

10-4 gentlemen, I might shoot a few of the Punch tomorrow, now we better get back to the regular scheduled program!

G, you murdered those beasts!



Only thing I've shot with mine are targets.


They look scary though...lol

Combination of ammo type and shooter. Some, even say the 9 mm, will kill a Kodiak bear.

My Sig 322 is very easy to shoot well and it keeps on shooting and shooting before you need a mag change. With a can on the frt it would be even more awesome. mb

I'll drink to that!



every chance I get!

ya!

GWB

Sheep and cows no doubt.

But he was asking about “attackers” which are a whole nother kettle of fish.

I stand by my response.

But if you use it for bear hunting, I say good luck, it was nice knowing you.

I worry far more about my wife being attacked while out and about with the kids, whether that's in a population center or in the woods. Since she likes and will shoot a moderately loaded 9, which kicks Hell out of anything smaller like a 380, I like the 9. A lot. I even carry one sometimes. Can you imagine an average guy carrying the same lung-blowing, Brownie-slaughtering cartridges that the uber-bad-asses in LE carry? It's a great country.

Depends on what ammo you shoot them with.

FMJ will slow them down after a few shots but hollowpoints should do a better job.

I own a 45,40 and a 9mm and they will all do the job with the right ammo.

I knew a guy once. Big-ass Eskimo, 6'3, 220# , bully, and all-round douche. He beat the chit out of a nice old guy, 2/3 his size, also an Eskimo. When Lazzarus came back for round 2, Gus shot him once with that little (Freedom Arms? ).22 Derringer. That little .22 bounced around awhile inside the rib cage, getting several vital organs- Lazzie made it about 30 yards out the door. No, he didn't come back from the dead.

Good riddance too. Gus had to leave the village for awhile for his own safety. All asswholes have relatives who think the a-hole (once he's dead) was the finest kind ever... . Just the way of the village factions and rivalries. See it with the blacks too. White trash just seem to shrug it off....

I've a couple .22 semi-auto handguns.
As a defensive weapon, I would choose hollow points and plan on using all 10.

If you can't shoot 'em with something big, shoot 'em lots....

I'd prefer my Python, tho I find it rather clumsy. Hey, for the $150 I paid for it, I'll deal with it.

Probably should buy a Glock.....

I tend to agree with that. I have .45's and 9's, no .40's.

With the latest and best ammo, the old 9mm sorta wakes up and isn't a bad defensive round. Sure beats a sharp stick.

DF

Who is Jerry M? Why not stand in front of him? I sat in front of a lot of dinks shooting at me with AKs and hardly bled. They use pussy ammo too.

Maybe it was the Indian and not the arrow? I can’t imagine anyone walking away much less talking garbage after a center mass shot from 7.62x39.

9mm will.

10mm will better.

Too bad they don't make an 11mm.

I wouldn't want to use the crescent wrench version, long handled or short. That's just not much steel to work with. I guess a 9mm socket on an adapter for at least a 1/2" drive ratchet wrench might be ok.

In my LE career I’ve carried both the 40 and 9, mainly the 40 as it was the issue weapon. I’ve never felt any advantage carrying the 40 over the 9.

I’ve seen a ton of bad guys made good by the 9mm.

They’re talking about Jerry Miculek, DD. Exhibition and Competitive Shooter that pretty much had all the records for revolver shooting.

Rather have a 9mm than a sharp stick!
Rather have my .40 than a 9mm!

Very entertaining thread for a Friday evening.

I laugh, I laugh more, I learned nothing more.

10mm is hard to beat in a auto loader.

They do, if you round to the nearest whole mm.

.45 Auto (11.43×23mm)

Bruce

Yep.

chipsNdips, honey hand me another,, 9bangbangbang pepsi, Ahh love this barca lounger

What you carry on the street is one thing, combat is another.

Seems maybe Col Cooper had grunts hand humping the cases of 45 for him.

When you have to hump enough ammo to sustain a fight you get a healthy respect for the 9 or 5.56

22mag.?

Get some!

I wish I'd had his job.

I'd prolly still be working.

Wonder what Travon thinks about a 9mm being enough

Only Boomers working on dated information disregard the 9mm as a defensive round. Bullet engineering has come a long ways in the last 30 years.

My constant companion is a G29 for just that reason.

Boomers paid attention when bullet engineering progressed in all calibers as well.

We heard about the Boxer Rebellion before you did also, but not before John M Browning did. He did something about it.

He also said the 9mm Luger and the .38 special revolvers were fine weapons but his invention was better against bad guys on drugs running towards the trenches.

Do you believe that a .308 Win kills deer deader than a 7mm-08?

That's a stupid question. Nobody mentioned "deader".

Okay how about quicker. Do you believe that a .308 Win kills deer quicker than a 7mm-08?

CNS trauma is what stops an assailant...

Bullet engineering is important to that delivery.

Shot/shots placed determines CNS trauma.

It ain't rocket science...

I can’t answer the OP’s question because I haven’t shot anything but paper with my 9mm.

I broke down and bought one for the capacity, primarily. That said, it’s a full-sized 19+1 and not exactly ideal for CC. But I lose interest (or faith) in 9mm if it’s anything much less than that.

I am confident enough in a 9mm that I carry one often

Either one is fine. Our agency is now transitioning back to 9mm from the the 40 cal. The reasoning is not effectiveness of one over the other. The reasoning is more rounds in the gun and more hits due to a slightly less recoil impulse. Last, Glock offered a crazy deal on the cost of the switch over. We are carrying the the Federal 40 cal. 180 gr HST and will be carrying the Federal 9mm HST 147gr. Absent a CSN shot and instant drop, out of the fight result ,using a standard pistol round to stop a threat is like using a small hammer to drive a big nail. It can be done but, the results are not always ideal and vary widely. People often do not know they are hit and the effect of the hits can take awhile to be observable. some people are dead on the their feet but do not know they are dead. Hence the need to keep reevaluating that threat and reengaging or disengaging as needed.

I remember reading about a criminal that was high on a PCP getting in a shootout in Illinois with the police. He had been hit 51 times with their issued 9mm rounds and was still returning fire. They stopped him with a 12 ga. slug to the neck cutting his spine in two.

CNS, meshemess. Priority 1 in self defense is to incapacitate, not kill. Don’t think it matters a lot what you shoot someone with as opposed to where.

So, maybe it’s dark and you’re excited a bit. Nobody goes anywhere without their bellybutton. Shoot’m in the gut and they’re done. On the deck, cryin’ like a little girl.

This is like talking to a teenage girl. Geez

Yes

Uh, not compared to some others.. And loaded with the right bullet (ala Lehigh Defense stuff) it can be quite effective..


Yep - and those might be needed more in an urban environment like Murderapolis than in the middle of, say, South Dakota... Just sayin'...

No, but a person with a 9mm can.

Given my proficiency with a handgun...I've been thinking a handheld claymore may be the ideal self defense round. Quite a few years ago, I saw a 1000# water buffalo that had tripped one...game over.

More female recruits over the years pushed the transition back to the 9mm. They complained that the 40 cal had too much recoil, plus Glock reps (former Leos) pushed it for more money

Our experience was similar with some our our Deputies expressing an interest in the lighter recoiling of the 9mm. Complaining about the snappy recoil of the 40 cal. We, range instructors proposed taking a portion of our consistently lowest shooters and allowing them to carry 9mms. The management denied our request under the notion that in a gunfire there could be ammo compatibility issues with the different calibers. We countered with "hits win gun fights" and we do not practice sharing magazines or the transfer of magazines while shooting and were again denied. once the admin saw other agencies switching back to the 9mm then they decided and found the funding to switch. Nothing more then a newer, shinier can opener! Then it was a great idea.

The best firearms instructors in law enforcement that I've ever met were pushing for 9mm and quality projectiles twenty years ago.

It's a no-brainer.

+1

.45 is 11.43mm.

Not enough muzzle energy and stuff.

The 10mm crowd is extra super hilarious.

Half of them have never chronograph'd what they're spending money on.

any data or comparison?

The answer is yes 9mm will work. No different than hunting, bullet placement!

If you fail to train frequently in a realistic manner, do not use a shot timer and do not always carry your weapon of choice you revert to "stopping power" discussions.



mike r

As to caliber ,I was not one to force anyone one way or the other. My criteria was just carry what you can shoot/handle well and hit with. Our policy was limiting enough. I have worked with some range staff who have had and voiced opinions on caliber as the end all, be all choice. Shooter confidence in what you carry is a big factor in effectiveness.

Yes.

Well, I'm a firm believer in the 1911 in .45 ACP. However, I have never felt poorly armed when carrying a 9MM. In certain neighborhoods, the larger magazine capacity of a 9MM can be a comforting factor. Just never saw a 9MM that really tripped my trigger although the S&W 6906 came close. Twelve plus one up the spout. Could use the 15 round magazines from the S&W 59 IIRC. I even had a Star in .40 cal. for a while. A very short while. I shot it and it was decently accurate, smaller than a 1911 but a lot heavier. I sold it at a slight profit and wished the new owner well.

I usually carry a Colt Combat Commander .45 ACP concealed with an S&W M60 .38 Spl. as a back up. Spare magazines are two Wilson 10 rounders and 2 speed loaders for the .38. Sometimes it's only the .38 which is easier to hide in my vehicle when going to the doctor's office or other medical facility. State law doesn't allow weapons of any kind in doctor's offices or medical facilities.
PJ

Frankly, any firearm is better than no firearm.

Clothing limitations, social limitations, and location visiting usually have more influence on what I'm carrying (and I carry wherever and whenever I can) than academic arguments about "stopping power", caliber, 15 shots vs. 8 shots, striker vs. hammer vs. revolver, etc...

A Colt pocket pistol .25acp in your hand trumps a 10mm Glock G40 back home in the safe.

Every. Single. Time.

All that being said, my vehicle guns are all either .45 acp or 10mm full-sized semi autos.

I tend to carry my Colt Detective Special with Hornady Critical Defense .38 +P more than anything else, becasue it fits in my little pocket holster in my jeans pocket, so never an issue of concealment in any weather, any social condition, any location.

I'd prefer to be carrying a 5" barreled 10mm, but that is often not a practical option.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...form=IQFRBA&first=1&disoverlay=1

Sig used to offer the nightmare carry in .357 Sig. You may find one on the used market.

I have both a p229 and a p226 in .357 sig .... great cartridge. BTW, the upper on a p226 and p229 work with either a .357 sig or a .40 S&W barrel. I've got both barrels for my p226 and p229.

Dear God…

Full size auto and revolver for decades.

Am thrilled w my P365

I carry a G19, G17 or G34 quite frequently.

More often than not with a single spare magazine, often a 24 round Glock factory mag, though in the hottest part of summer I tend to carry the standard capacity 17 round mags more.

In my vehicle I keep some Glock factory 24 round versions.










I carry my own 148 grain +P hard cast flat point that clocks 1,100 FPS out of a G17, and is a very good load for deep penetration. (thats what she said! :D)





JWP475 picked some up from me and shot some into 20% gel (10% is normally the standard for handgun testing).

They did very well, to say the least.










I switched over to these for an all-around load back when the whole country was having issues with people rioting, flipping over cars, dragging innocent people out of cars, etc, all because they felt like it. I figured if I need to defend my family, I want something that will shoot through barriers, car doors, intermediate objects, etc.

Plus due to being in an area with large predators I wanted something that could be a dual purpose load. Something that would serve my needs for the trail/hunting/hiking and home/urban defense.


The punchline is that I have ZERO issue carrying a 9mm with the proper ammo, and do carry one. I carry a 9mm, .40, .45, 44 mag and .45 Colt as well. It simply depends on my needs at that time, and what I feel like carrying.

That said, I would certainly not put down the 9mm, as it has shown that it is extremely effective with the proper projectile, and skilled application.

40 cal ammo is now cheaper then 9mm. The one hold up to our switch over to 9mm was buying the ammo to do it. 9mm was so in demand that we waited 10 months to get our ammo.

In my pocket now.

Jerry and his wife Kay use to own a small gun shop In Louisiana.
Sold them quite a few guns when I worked in the Wholesale Firearms Industry.
His wife, Kay, the daughter of famed gunsmith Jim Clark, is a very accomplished Competition Shooter also, as is their daughter. Good folks all.

Funny how a 9mm is never enough to shoot a human, but a 223 is more than adequate to shoot big game. When did humans become so bullet proof?

Rather have one of my .45s than a 9mm in Murderapolis...

When some perps began wearin' bullet-proof vests??

G26 or 19 never leaves me feeling under gunner at all.

Show me some data on the percent of perps wearing bulletproof vest, what a crock…

I’d bet it’s less than 1%. Most perps aren’t that smart.

It might not just be about armor but what about a chest rig with ammo? What about going through their arm to get to vitals? What about barriers between you and them?

Shoot them in the crotch.

Huh?

The better answer would be "when humans started shooting back".

I don't purposely hunt big game with a .223 and have never considered the 9mm, not enough..

I, for one would just as soon avoid any 3/8" holes in my person -
almost as badly as any 1/2" holes.
Sub- 1/4" holes also!

I would prefer one of my .45's, but can't keep my britches up while carrying one.
SIG 938, S&W 37 - I can "maintain dignity" - to a point.
May need to start using suspenders, since the Lord didn't provide me with much butt!

Don't take much top beat teeth and fingernails!